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Author Topic: Two resurrections; when do they take place?  (Read 42579 times)

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Evan600

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #100 on: May 27, 2007, 08:04:06 PM »

In chapter 15 of Cor. who is Paul speaking to?

1Co 15:1  And, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and in which you stand;

So what is being said in this chapter is applied to the brothers/elect only.  That is who he is explaining things to.
You gave those verses in the middle of that chapter, but there he is still talking to the brothers.
And he ends that chapter speaking to the brothers, he is telling them about their resurrection, the first resurrection.  That word brothers can not be discounted.

1Co 15:50  And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
v. 51  Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
v. 52  in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
v. 53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
v. 57  But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
v. 58  So that, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not without fruit in the Lord.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



Though this chapter IS directed to the brothers, or the Elect, are we to say that this verse is applied ONLY to the Elect:

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Though it is directed to the Elect, Paul is still expounding on the resurrection.  The ONLY resurrection.  This is the same type of logic that someone else uses to justify the wrath of God abiding on the Elect.  This is not Scriptural.  There is no where that I see of another "type" of resurrection other than incorruptible, for ALL of the dead.

Love to you,

Jason
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Evan600

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #101 on: May 27, 2007, 08:13:59 PM »

Okay Jason

So you agree that they, the non-elect die again, the second death,  but not that they are raised corruptable. How do you figure that? You say the non-elect are not raised "corruptible"...YES you said it not me! Quote : "After the non elect are raised 'corruptible'....first part unscriptural....." unquote...So do you think the non-elect have no corruption that has to die? ...so what is going to die in the second scriptural death according to you: What is it that has to die and has to be defeated under the rule of Christ if not corruption and corruptible flesh? What then? Do you perhaps believe that the person is the flesh body. We are not our bodies but that which are in our bodies. The body of flesh carnality of mind has to die. It is the chaff as has been clarified by Joe via Ray Smith.

I believe the tares will perish. Then God will remake them through the LOF. They will perish in the second death and be remade through the correction process of rebirth. The elect will help Christ administer this Government to this end don't the scriptures say? ALL will be saved...but not in the same time or the same way!

You say : 3. After the non elect are raised 'corruptible,' they would die again.  (first part unscriptural, second scriptural)

Are you confusing the issues here to try to get to something that doesn't exist? Either we believe God or we don't. He says what is going to happen and HE is not way off but false teaching can certainly be way out! :D

That is all I am going to say on this matter for this time being.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)



Okay Arcturus,

Bottom line:  There is NO Scripture that says anything about a physical, corruptible resurrection. 

Do you agree, or disagree?

We must define something here.  We must define what the lake of fire is for.  Here is a question, because I purify something, does that mean that I corrupt it?  Not neccessarily.  If I purify silver, it is NOT corrupted, but it is purified.  Does this make sense?

I see that you have to add to the Scripture to support a doctrine of a physical, corruptible resurrection.  Because something is purified, does not mean it is corrupted.  Until I see 2 Scriptures to support another kind of resurrection, I see only an uncorruptible one. 

This is almost getting ridiculous.  Not one verse that says anything about a physical resurrection.

Love to you,

Jason
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rocky

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #102 on: May 27, 2007, 08:18:16 PM »

I don't know if this helps, but this is why i earlier said i see the resurrection as a process.  I see those in the LOF as being raised incorruptible, a process.  Not linear.  

I believe there is only one resurrection, and that is Jesus Christ.  He is the resurrection.  Two different times they occur, but only one resurrection.

I see the resurrection to judgment (non elect) a process that leads to incorruptible too.  

But I agree Jason, there is no good scripture to support the non elect are raised into a physical body, spirit (equalling a soul) again. But we can trust scripture that however God does it, the last enemy to be destroyed is death.  Thesting of sin is death.  The strength of sin is the law.  

1Co 15:56  The sting of sin is death; and the strength of sin is the law.



Somethting i find interesting too is this:

1Co 15:36  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1Co 15:38  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Why referring to "it" rather than they?

 


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Evan600

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #103 on: May 27, 2007, 08:25:23 PM »

Great point Rocky.  I think that the word it would be referring to the body, as a general term.

1Co 15:35  But some man will say, How are the dead raised up[referring to ALL of the dead, that die in Adam]? and with what body do they[all of the dead that die in Adam] come?
1Co 15:36  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it[the physical body is the first death] die:

- Jason
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rocky

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #104 on: May 27, 2007, 08:44:12 PM »

I just want to take time to thank the moderators and all who have participated on this thread for bearing with me as I ask questions and outline the things I'm going through to understand God's awesome plan. 

I have often been worried of stepping over the line here at this forum by bringing in my thoughts and questions; but I believe this thread is a good example of how we can explore without being reprimanded.   Thank you all. 

 
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Evan600

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #105 on: May 27, 2007, 09:49:42 PM »

I just want to take time to thank the moderators and all who have participated on this thread for bearing with me as I ask questions and outline the things I'm going through to understand God's awesome plan. 

I have often been worried of stepping over the line here at this forum by bringing in my thoughts and questions; but I believe this thread is a good example of how we can explore without being reprimanded.   Thank you all. 

 

I also have to agree with you.  I too am sometimes concerned about stepping over the line.

If anyone has felt that I went over the line, I apologize.  I know how I can be sometimes.  We are all brothers and sisters here, and I know that we all share a love for the truth.

Thanks everyone!

with love,

Jason
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Kat

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #106 on: May 28, 2007, 12:32:35 AM »


Well, I guess this is not going to be something that is made clear to us yet.
It is my opinion that I Cor. is speaking to the brothers/elect and that is who Paul says will inherit incorruption in the kingdom.

1Co 15:50  And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Paul also speaks of running a race, and that only those who win receive an incorruptible crown.

1Co 9:24  Do you not know that those running in a race all run, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain.
v. 25  And everyone who strives for the mastery is temperate in all things. Then those truly that they may receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.

Here in Romans Paul tell about God's judgment and every man must give account.  There are those that recieve immortality/incorruption, and those that receive wrath and fury.

Rom 2:5  But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
v. 6  For he will render to every man according to his works:
v. 7  to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
v. 8  but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Here in Eze. I think it is speaking of the resurrection of the dead.  It says nothing here about an incorruptible body, but appears to be raised to flesh.

Eze 37:1  The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; it was full of bones.
v. 2  And he led me round among them; and behold, there were very many upon the valley; and lo, they were very dry.
v. 3  And he said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, thou knowest."
v. 4  Again he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
v. 5  Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live.
v. 6  And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the LORD."
v. 7  So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
v. 8  And as I looked, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them; but there was no breath in them.
v. 9  Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord GOD: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live."
v. 10  So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great host.
v. 11  Then he said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are clean cut off.'
v. 12  Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people; and I will bring you home into the land of Israel.
v. 13  And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves, and raise you from your graves, O my people.
v. 14  And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land; then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken, and I have done it, says the LORD."

I am not trying to fit this to what I believe or what anybody else believes, but what is in the scripture.  I am ready to change whatever I think to get inline with what the scripture says.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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skydreamers

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #107 on: May 28, 2007, 06:05:54 PM »

Quote
For me, i struggle with the dead raised again into flesh bodies; because then they would have to die again (in the flesh), and be resurrected again (third resurrection) to become a spiritual body. 

Hi Rocky,

I don't know if this has been addressed already as I have not had the time to read this entire thread  (it's so long!!), but I wanted to add this before I forget.  If the wicked are being resurrected into physical bodies, I do see how it is possible that they would not have to die again and be resurrected again into a spiritual body because of this scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ESV
51  Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...


There are those who will not be dead when Christ returns and they are "changed" on the spot....so my reasoning is that God is able to accomplish this with the wicked after they've been resurrected into physical flesh again, gone through the process of refinement and then changed to spiritual.  The wicked need to "die" to their carnal self, but I don't think this means that they physically need to die and be buried and then raised through resurrection...they can simply be "changed" by the limitless power of God.  That's how I would understand it, that is. ;)

Great stuff brought out in this thread, I need to find the time to go through it in detail!

Peace,
Diana
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rocky

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #108 on: May 28, 2007, 11:59:36 PM »

Quote
For me, i struggle with the dead raised again into flesh bodies; because then they would have to die again (in the flesh), and be resurrected again (third resurrection) to become a spiritual body. 

Hi Rocky,

I don't know if this has been addressed already as I have not had the time to read this entire thread  (it's so long!!), but I wanted to add this before I forget.  If the wicked are being resurrected into physical bodies, I do see how it is possible that they would not have to die again and be resurrected again into a spiritual body because of this scripture:

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 ESV
51  Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...


There are those who will not be dead when Christ returns and they are "changed" on the spot....so my reasoning is that God is able to accomplish this with the wicked after they've been resurrected into physical flesh again, gone through the process of refinement and then changed to spiritual.  The wicked need to "die" to their carnal self, but I don't think this means that they physically need to die and be buried and then raised through resurrection...they can simply be "changed" by the limitless power of God.  That's how I would understand it, that is. ;)

Great stuff brought out in this thread, I need to find the time to go through it in detail!

Peace,
Diana

Hi Diana, the way i see it is at the twinkling of an eye, when those alive are changed,  is at the resurrection.  So if those people who are made physically alive again (resurrected to judgment) are made alive (spirit) in the twinkling of an eye, by the power of God, then they would be resurrected again.  I don't see where there is two resurrections for the non elect (in scripture).  Unless, we can assume that "second death", means death of death, which is really LIFE, which is the same as resurrection??  hmm, what ya think?



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gmik

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #109 on: May 29, 2007, 12:03:19 AM »

The death of death is Life....I love that!

I don't know if this has already been mentioned but at the conference a sweet sister from K'zoo told me that the splitting of the tares/wheat,  wolves/sheep, whatever good/evil thing its saying., is this....in US.  Separating the tares and wheat in us!!

Whew!!  I probably had read it on BT but it didn't hit me till then.
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Evan600

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #110 on: May 29, 2007, 12:07:39 AM »

The death of death is Life....I love that!

I don't know if this has already been mentioned but at the conference a sweet sister from K'zoo told me that the splitting of the tares/wheat,  wolves/sheep, whatever good/evil thing its saying., is this....in US.  Separating the tares and wheat in us!!

Whew!!  I probably had read it on BT but it didn't hit me till then.

It was mentioned on this thread...thanks anyway :)  You may want to read the replies about it.  I believe that they are on page 7, or maybe on 6 of this topic.  There was an email posted that Joe sent to Ray, and Ray's response about it.

God bless,

Jason
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gmik

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #111 on: May 29, 2007, 12:18:58 AM »

Thanks Jason.  I will check it out!!!
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #112 on: May 29, 2007, 01:35:32 AM »


Hi rocky,

Quote
So if those people who are made physically alive again (resurrected to judgment) are made alive (spirit) in the twinkling of an eye, by the power of God, then they would be resurrected again.  I don't see where there is two resurrections for the non elect (in scripture).  Unless, we can assume that "second death", means death of death, which is really LIFE, which is the same as resurrection??  hmm, what ya think?

I was looking at your reply, it seems to me that it is the resurrection part where we may be differing. 
I am thinking that a 'resurrection' is only when the physically dead are raised back to physical life.
Christ was referred to as 'the Resurrection' because He was raised.
Those who join Christ at His return that are alive, are changed not resurrected.

1Co 15:52  in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

This is referred to as the first resurrection because so many will be raised, just a relative hand full will be changed.  But those changed are considered a part of the first resurrection, because they will join those raise to meet Christ.
The vast majority of mankind will be resurrected, that's why it is called the resurrection of the dead.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

In John where it speaks of the resurrection, and it's those in the grave.

John 5:28  Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,
v. 29  and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.

It will be a new thing that those alive at Christ's return will experience, being changed.  They do not experience resurrection from the dead, but life immortal.  But that does not mean it won't be the way it is from then on.  Death will be cast into the Lake of fire, no one will physically die from then on.

Rev 20:14 And, death and hades, were cast into the lake of fire. This, is, the second death—the lake of fire. (Rotherham)

Hope you understand what I'm trying to say here  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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rocky

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #113 on: May 29, 2007, 02:36:11 AM »

Wow Kat, i'll have to think on that.  I think i disagree, because it seems to put all the emphasis on physical death in regards to resurrection. 

But I'm not sure to be honest.

Got me thinking about this verse:

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

This to me is the Resurrection. 

and this

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


Since we know that some will not physically die, but be changed in the twinkling of an eye, it seems to me that resurrection does not need to involve physical death.  But if i hear you correctly, your saying this is not a resurrection, because they never physically died. 

So if all die, it seems to me that it is not talking about physical death. 

I feel like i'm talkng in circles now.  Maybe others can jump in and help. 

Sorry Kat if I am not understanding your post. 

 


 

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jER

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #114 on: May 29, 2007, 04:57:28 AM »

This tread is somewhat at length, however, there is a question (or two…) that I might ask - only for thought:

How does Revelation, chapter 21 (verses 11-17) fit in with the Resurrection, and Judgment? Also, with regards to the inhabitants who are (being) taught Righteousness?

(11)  He that is unjust…he that is filthy…he that is righteous…and he that is holy
(12)  And, behold, I come quickly…my reward is with me to give every man according
         as his work shall be.
(14)  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have the right to the
        Tree of Life…and may enter in through the gates, into the city (New Jerusalem?).
(15)  For without (the city) are dogs…sorcerers…whoremongers…murderers…idolaters
        And whoever loves to make a lie.
(17) And the Spirit and the Bride (of Christ), say "come"…And, let him (them) that
       hear, say "come"…And, let him (them) that thirst, "come"…And, whosoever
       will…let him take the water of life freely.

The Grace of our Lord, Jesus Christ - be with you (US)!

- Jer
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skydreamers

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #115 on: May 29, 2007, 05:10:04 AM »

Hi Rocky,

These things that we are trying to understand are not easy!  I've learned a lot in this thread, but I've also been confused a lot in this thread.  It's like a roller coaster ride...you think you understand something and then someone brings ups a question or thought and it mixes things up.  This is all good of course, because it keeps us searching....

Having said that, I may be confusing the issue more by my added thoughts.... ??? (sorry :))

Rocky,

You bring up the scripture:

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I've often wondered about this scripture too, because if man dies once, then how can there be a second death.  And we also have these scriptures:

Jude 1:11-13 ESV
11  Woe to them! For they walked in the way of Cain and abandoned themselves for the sake of gain to Balaam's error and perished in Korah's rebellion.
12  These are blemishes on your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, looking after themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted;
13  wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.


Kat, do you know if Ray speaks about this anywhere....I thought he did somewhere and for the life of me I just can't remember.

Anyways, I had come to think that because "it is appointed on to man once to die", that the "second" death was really not "another" death, but rather the same death that was already experienced by those in the first resurrection.  And I'm thinking this is a spiritual death, happening in the invisible realm....like dying to the old carnal man. 

The second death then, could be called such because it refers to those in the "second" resurrection.  It's the same death, it's just that those who are resurrected haven't died this death yet.  They've died physically, but so what.  The physical means nothing (the flesh profits nothing).  It seems to me that spiritually dying is of number one importance. 

Once this death has occurred (whether you've physically died or not) then God can change you (or beget/birth you into the spirit) in the twinkling of an eye".  Thus you are now a spiritual being, and the scripture:  "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" is fulfilled. 

Isn't flesh and blood a spiritual symbol for the carnal mind?  Surely Satan has a carnal mind, but he is not flesh and blood, he is a spiritual being.  So it is possible to be a spiritual being and be carnal.  Satan must also, I'm assuming, die the spiritual death, and be  changed into something new....the change to me, is the carnal heart  (whether in physical flesh and blood, or spirit flesh and blood) being replaced with a spiritual heart/mind of God. 

So Rocky, I think I'm heading along the same lines as you are when you say:

Quote
So if all die, it seems to me that it is not talking about physical death.

I looked at Strong's definition of the Greek word for "resurrection":

a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

I know that Strong's is not always correct in his definitions, but maybe he is here??

May God give us eyes to see in His perfect time.

Peace and may God bless our studies,
Diana

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John9362

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #116 on: May 29, 2007, 10:10:27 AM »

Thats it I'm outa here...8 pages of confusion is more then this bear can bear.....I'm off to read the BT website.......I feel a lot less lost there !!  ;D :o :D ;D :o :D

God loves you all.......we'll all understand it when He wants us to. So I'll shrug my shoulders and wait.

Love to all

John9362

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rk12201960

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #117 on: May 29, 2007, 10:27:50 AM »

Kat nailed it down.
Don't split atoms then there is only energy and that's a realm of understanding not for our minds yet.
Keep it simple and I believe Kat did that with scripture.

Peace and Wisdom
Randy
 8)
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rocky

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #118 on: May 29, 2007, 10:29:12 AM »


.....Surely Satan has a carnal mind, but he is not flesh and blood, he is a spiritual being.  So it is possible to be a spiritual being and be carnal. 

Peace and may God bless our studies,
Diana



That's a good point.  The part i've struggled with this thought, is that I keep going back to a definition of a "soul", which is where to me our carnal mind comes from.

But maybe we can be resurrected a carnal spirit, with a carnal mind.

Something to think about, satan has a diet, it's dust (thinking this means humans, made from the dust)

Gen 3:14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
 
If there is no "dust" to eat (all spiritually carnal now), seems to me satan will starve.


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rocky

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #119 on: May 29, 2007, 10:38:51 AM »

Sounds like from a couple of posts that this thread is just getting too confusing and too long. 

So I'll back out for now, and leave us all with what we do know. 


God is LOVE

God is Sovereign

God has a plan to bring all into his presence

God is working out that plan, and we are a part of it. 

Through judgment (death to life), we are saved.

Christ didn't die so we don't have to, he died to show us the way to LIFE.

Jesus Christ is the RESURRECTION, He is LIFE. 


Praise God, He is in control of the plan and not us.   

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