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Author Topic: Two resurrections; when do they take place?  (Read 42551 times)

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rocky

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2007, 01:44:52 AM »


Hi Jason,

Quote
Where is the Scripture that explains this "physical resurrection?"  I'm looking at the verse in John 5, and I don't see any indication of another 'type' of resurrection.

John 5:29  and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.

This resurrection to 'life' is the first resurrection of the elect, into the kingdom.  That will take place immediately at Christ's appearing, even before He comes to the earth.
 
1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.

Now this first resurrection is when the elect will be brought into the kingdom and given 'life.'

John 17:2  even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal(age-abiding) life to all You have given Him.
v. 3  And this is life eternal(age-abiding), that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 20:31  But these are written so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you might have life in His name.

To be resurrected to 'life' is a reward only given to the few elect that will rule with Christ.
To be resurrected to condemnation is another thing altogether. 
There is also the scripture of the sheep and the goats, the elect are the sheep. 
The goats will not be in this same resurrection of life into the kingdom, but they will be resurrected then also, but to judgment, big difference.

Mat 25:31  But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory.
v. 32  And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.
v. 33  And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left.
v. 34  Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
v. 41  Then He also shall say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting(age-abiding) fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
v. 46  And these shall go away into everlasting(age-abiding) punishment, but the righteous into everlasting(age-abiding) life.

Quote
Again, this brings up the same question.  Where does the Scripture say that there are dead that are raised corruptible?

Rev 21:7  He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
v. 8  But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

As you can see all of those that are cast into the Lake of fire are corrupted.  They have died physically once, then it will be time for their second death spiritually.
This all will happen on this earth, all those resurrected are the ones Christ will rule with a rod of iron, along with whom ever is alive on earth at that time.
At least that is what I see in these scripture.

Rev 5:10  And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.


mercy, peace, and love
Kat




thanks again Kat, that was very helpful. 

So what happens to those in the resurrection of condemnation after second death, after death of death?  do they physically die again?  do they get ever get a spritual body?  They are on/of the earth, but we know the earth will pass away when all is fufilled. 

Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


What i still struggle with is the physical death part.  Seems to me we all are dead, even though we physically live, and those who hear have proceeded out of death (from a state of death) into life. 

Seems to me those who don't hear his voice, stay in a state of death, and are brought into (resurrected unto) judgment.  I'm not sure i see it as they have had to physically die first. 

but it is interesting the verse that talks about this does say "tomb".

Joh 5:24 "Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that coming is an hour, and now is, when the dead shall be hearing the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall be living.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,

Joh 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.

a lot to think about. 


« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 02:02:27 AM by rocky »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2007, 12:43:58 PM »

Hi Rocky
Not that Kat needs any help to answer but here is my view regarding your questions for what it is worth. My comments are in blue.


thanks again Kat, that was very helpful. 

So what happens to those in the resurrection of condemnation after second death, after death of death?  do they physically die again?  do they get ever get a spritual body?  They are on/of the earth, but we know the earth will pass away when all is fufilled.

In the resurrection of condemnation AFTER the second death....they are SAVED, REDEEMED, PURIFIED, CORRECTED AND THE CROOKED IS MADE STRAIGHT. Do they physically die again AFTER THE SECOND DEATH? No. Do they ever get a spirityual body? Yes. As the Scriptures promise. 

Mat 5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


What i still struggle with is the physical death part.  Seems to me we all are dead, even though we physically live, and those who hear have proceeded out of death (from a state of death) into life.

What you say here is correct. We are alive in the flesh yet many are dead in their tresspasses and have not yet died with Christ to sin. There are some who have been babtised into the death of Christ who are dead to sin yet still are in the flesh and these are hearing HIS voice and following HIS steps.

So what is the problem? I do not see the struggle. You are correct.


Seems to me those who don't hear his voice, stay in a state of death, and are brought into (resurrected unto) judgment.  I'm not sure i see it as they have had to physically die first. 

Who says they have to physically die first? Do you mean they have to physically die first or die to the flesh? Lets take the first possibility. They have to physically die first is not scriptural because Christ will return when there are those who have not yet died physically or to the flesh. If you mean that they have to die to the flesh first then they will discern the voice and see the Spirit of Christ, then yes these are the Elect and chosen who have already passed judgement in their life times. As for the others, theirs is the judgment to the resurrection of the wicked and to meet their sentence.

but it is interesting the verse that talks about this does say "tomb".

Anything short of the life of Christ is a condition of partial death.All have fallen short of the Glory and non are saved or born again. The most anyone has is the deposit and promise of reward which requires the faith from God that is HIS gift to those HE chooses.

The physically and spiritually dead will not live until Christ returns. Only HE brings with HIM our full redemption. Only HE is the Resurrection and THE LIFE. For me, those dead that will not live again, is for those who will suffer the second death and then be saved. Not all will suffer the second death but many will as there are only few who are chosen.


Joh 5:24 "Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life.

Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that coming is an hour, and now is, when the dead shall be hearing the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall be living.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,

Joh 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.

a lot to think about.

There ceratinly is a lot to ponder and seek understanding about. Understanding comes only from the Spirit and the Spirit knows everything. That is a lot! ;D

Thank you for letting me voice my perspective. Hope it adds and helps.

Peace to you

Arcturus
:)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 01:22:46 PM by Arcturus »
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Evan600

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2007, 01:00:46 PM »


Hi Jason,

Quote
Where is the Scripture that explains this "physical resurrection?"  I'm looking at the verse in John 5, and I don't see any indication of another 'type' of resurrection.

John 5:29  and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.

This resurrection to 'life' is the first resurrection of the elect, into the kingdom.  That will take place immediately at Christ's appearing, even before He comes to the earth.
 
1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.

Now this first resurrection is when the elect will be brought into the kingdom and given 'life.'

John 17:2  even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal(age-abiding) life to all You have given Him.
v. 3  And this is life eternal(age-abiding), that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

John 20:31  But these are written so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you might have life in His name.

To be resurrected to 'life' is a reward only given to the few elect that will rule with Christ.
To be resurrected to condemnation is another thing altogether. 
There is also the scripture of the sheep and the goats, the elect are the sheep. 
The goats will not be in this same resurrection of life into the kingdom, but they will be resurrected then also, but to judgment, big difference.

Mat 25:31  But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory.
v. 32  And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.
v. 33  And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left.
v. 34  Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
v. 41  Then He also shall say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting(age-abiding) fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
v. 46  And these shall go away into everlasting(age-abiding) punishment, but the righteous into everlasting(age-abiding) life.

I agree with everything here thus far.


Quote
Again, this brings up the same question.  Where does the Scripture say that there are dead that are raised corruptible?

Rev 21:7  He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
v. 8  But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

As you can see all of those that are cast into the Lake of fire are corrupted.  They have died physically once, then it will be time for their second death spiritually.
This all will happen on this earth, all those resurrected are the ones Christ will rule with a rod of iron, along with whom ever is alive on earth at that time.
At least that is what I see in these scripture.

Rev 5:10  And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.


mercy, peace, and love
Kat


It is the above that I don't understand.  You said:

"They have died physically once, then it will be time for their second death spiritually."

I agree that the second death is die spiritually.  That is not my question.  My question arises when you mentioned earlier that those that go to the lake are raised in physical bodies.  In order for it to make sense with the Scripture, there must be more than just one verse explaining that those that go to the lake are raised in physical bodies.

1Co 15:44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And a couple verses above this also:

1Co 15:42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

I realize that the carnal mind is going to be 'burned' out of those that go to the lake.  If the resurrection of the dead has people that are raised incorruptible, then clearly they are not raised corruptible.  If that were the case, Paul would not have said that the resurrection(any resurrection, just the resurrection of the dead, any dead) consists of being raised incorruptible.

Am I missing something else here?  I just don't see any physical bodies being raised up anywhere.  Perhaps spiritual bodies that are raised with some kind of spiritual flesh like Jesus, and spiritual bone, but not physical as we see now.  That might even be a stretch, but that is the closest answer that I have right now.

God bless,

Jason
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2007, 01:46:43 PM »

There are precedents to the fact that Jesus can raise one from the grave or tomb to physically continue life.

Matt 9 : 25 But when the crowd had been ordered to go outside, He went in and took her by the hand, and the girl arose.

Matt 27 : 53 And coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Luke 7 : 14 And He went forward and touched the funeral bier, and the palbearers stood still. And He said, Young man I say to you, arise. And the man who was dead sat up.

Luke 11 : 43....He (Jesus) shouted with a loud voice, Lazarus, come out! 44 And out walked the man who had been dead.

Heb 11 : 35 Some women received again their dead by a resurrection...

These events in Scripture are within the scope and operation of Christ and for me they foreshadow the Resurrection to life in the Spirit of Christ, or to judgment in the flesh that is appointed to die the second death.

Not all will be raised incorruptible. Were those who were raised in the times of Christ, raised incorruptible. I don't think so. Only Christ Jesus has was and is incorruptible. Some will share in HIS inheritance appointed to HIM by the Father. Everyone will be saved but not all will be raised incorruptible to share in the reward that Christ brings to the Elect.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 01:48:29 PM by Arcturus »
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Kat

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2007, 02:04:09 PM »


Hi rocky,

Quote
Seems to me we all are dead, even though we physically live, and those who hear have proceeded out of death (from a state of death) into life.  

This is true, we are all dead spiritually, tho alive physiaclly, until our eyes are opened.  The whole world is dead, only when Christ comes in to you and your eyes are opened, then you have life.  
As the parable of the sower, only a few seed fell on good ground, that is the few that are chosen now.

Mat 13:13  Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not; nor do they understand.
v. 14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, "By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and shall not perceive; (Isa 6:9)
v. 15  for this people's heart has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
v. 16  But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.
v. 17  For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them; and to hear what you hear, and have not heard them.

But in this physical life the elect only receive the earnest of the Spirit and will receive the fullness in the resurrection, when the elect become spirit, as Christ so shall we be.

1Jo 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

2Cor 1:22  And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Quote
Seems to me those who don't hear his voice, stay in a state of death, and are brought into (resurrected unto) judgment.  I'm not sure i see it as they have had to physically die first.  

Well we all die in this life.  The exception would be that generation at Christ's return.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,

And the vast majority will not have had their eyes open to the truth, before they die.  So when all are resurrected, they will then have their eyes opened.  But it will be a process of coming to the truth, they have to unlearn all the false teaching, just like the elect do now.  They will have to learn to live a righteous life, just like the elect do now.  

Quote
So what happens to those in the resurrection of condemnation after second death, after death of death?  do they physically die again?  do they get ever get a spritual body?  They are on/of the earth, but we know the earth will pass away when all is fufilled.  

When Christ returns there "will be no more death." (Rev 21:4)
So people will be brought to salvation, and all will eventually be brought into the kingdom as spirit beings.  This is when Christ will turn His kingdom over to the Father and all will be all together as one.

1Co 15:28  But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.

This heaven and earth passing away, hummm, it sounds symbolic in 2 Peter.  It does say it's 'the day of the Lord,' so it may mean that the ways of the earth will be changed.  We know that the spiritual fire does not actually burn physical things up.

2Peter 3:10 Howbeit the day of the Lord will be here, as a thief,—in which, the heavens, with a rushing noise, will pass away, while, elements, becoming intensely hot, will be dissolved, and, earth, and the works therein, will be discovered. (Rotherham)

Hi Jason,

The resurrection is on the 'day of the Lord' first for the just to be brought into the kingdom incorruptible.  Then on the same 'day' the unjust or corrupt, to be cast into the Lake of fire to be judged.  This is the resurrection of all the dead.
 
Act 24:15  And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

When Christ and the elect returns He will judge on the earth or the people that are on it.  Spirit being are not bound by the earth, they would be in the heavenly kingdom.

Psa 98:9  before Jehovah; for He comes to judge the earth; with righteousness He shall judge the world, and the peoples in uprightness.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2007, 02:15:44 PM »


Hi Arcturus,

Thanks for adding your response  :)
There is a great deal to this subject of the resurrection of the dead.  I only know a little bit of what can be gained from the scripture, and it's not what I was ever taught. 
It is an interesting topic to be considering for sure.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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rocky

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2007, 03:50:43 PM »

Kat writes:  Well we all die in this life.  The exception would be that generation at Christ's return.

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,

And the vast majority will not have had their eyes open to the truth, before they die.


Rocky writes:  so, am i correct in that you see Hebrews 9:27 referring to physical death for non elect (except those physically alive at Christ's return), and spirtual death for elect??

Seems to me, the death in Hebrews 9:27 is the death administered by the law, and has nothing to do with physical death.

Paul talks how he was alive once, then the commandment came and he died. 


Kat writes: 

So people will be brought to salvation, and all will eventually be brought into the kingdom as spirit beings.


Rocky writes: 

How, without another resurrection from corrupt to incorrupt?? 







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skydreamers

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2007, 09:22:52 PM »

Hi Gang,

This is yet another great thread!  Thanks everyone for sharing your insights for the rest of us to ponder and learn from :)

Here are some of my thoughts as I was reading this thread:

Rocky,
I sense that you are struggling with the idea of "two" deaths, one being physical and one being spiritual and when and how all of this happens.  I use to get hung up on the phrase "the second death" of Revelation, thinking that it is literally a second death happening after a first death. 

Now I'm not saying this isn't true as it may well be.  But here's also how I've come to look at it from another angle which helps to clarify things for me, as I try to sort out the grand theme of the two resurrections.

The "two deaths" show up right at the beginning of the bible in Genesis; though this cannot be detected in most bible translations here is the verse in the Concordant Literal Version:

Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.
Gen 2:17

In an interlinear you can see it in Hebrew as "muth thmuth" and underneath it reads "to-die you-shall-die".

We know then,  that this body of "dust" is destined to return to the dust.

For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.
Gen 3:19

You see, we are "physically"  dyING the moment we are born.  This is a given, an unavoidable fact.  In a sense, I see it as yet another "literal" experience that is a "type" or "shadow" of the spiritual experience:  the TRUE death is the death of the carnal mind.  It is the only death we really need to understand or even concern ourselves with.  Physical death is a PROCESS which is a reflection of the only real and true death and that is the PROCESS of spiritual death.  Therefore, the bible is really speaking of ONE death....Ray talks about this many times, how everything in the scriptures is really ONE....there may be a "literal" meaning but it points to the "spiritual" meaning....so in fact there is really only ONE meaning. 

For example, there are not TWO sabbaths, one physical and one spiritual.....No, there is ONLY ONE Sabbath.  There is a literal seventh day which is called the Sabbath...but what concern is this to the spiritually minded???  It is the true spiritual Sabbath (Jesus) that the physical Sabbath points to...once a believer understands this, the physical loses all significance and the spiritual meaning can be embraced.  Ray has said, if one focuses too much on the "lilteral, physical" thing, you will never see the spiritual.

With this in mind, when we are reading about death in the bible, it points to this all important spiritual death.....the ONE death:

And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,
Heb 9:27

I believe this is referring to that spiritual death....it is the ONE death, the ONLY death we need to understand, it has nothing to do with physically having to die. 

Now Paul says, he dies daily....is he dying mulitple spiritual deaths???  No, I think what this means is this spiritual death is a process, but it is the same ONE death.  One in unity of meaning. 

So then, when Revelation speaks about the Second Death, which is the Lake of Fire, most of us understand and see that this is that ONE spiritual death.  It is that same death the elect go through now.  So why is it called the "second" death.  I think it is merely called the second death because it corresponds to the "second" resurrection.  The people in the second resurrection die the second death....you see?  They are not dying twice.  It is still ONE death, "second" is simply a name applied to the group of people who are coming up in the resurrection to judgment. 

This is why I also think (as discussed on other threads) that the two resurrections could happen on the same day or even simultaneously and the first resurrection is called "first" because it is FOREMOST in importance and honor.  Just as we leave our "first" love....we're not leaving a love that was "first" sequentially in our lives, rather a love which is MOST IMPORTANT in our life, first in honor, meaning and priority.

The physical death is a shadow.  It's not important that everyone MUST physically die, anymore than it is important that every believer MUST keep a physical seventh day Sabbath.  A believer may have never kept the "7th day" his whole life, but if he keeps the spiritual Sabbath, that is all that matters.  So then, many may be physically alive when Jesus comes and not experience a physical death of the body....so what??  (they will instead be "transformed" and lose their physical bodies that way).  It is not appointed on to man to "physically" die once but to spiritually die once...and this will happen in the lake of fire for all those who are not the elect. 

I hope this has made sense and hasn't confused the issue more.

I just thought it might give people like Rocky another angle to look at, and hopefully help anyone to let go of struggling to understand how physical death plays in to all of this.

Quote
Kat writes:

So people will be brought to salvation, and all will eventually be brought into the kingdom as spirit beings.


Rocky writes:

How, without another resurrection from corrupt to incorrupt??


I think what possibly happens Rockey is that all who are resurrected (whether first or second) will be resurrected into their new "spiritual" bodies which are NOT corrupt....BUT the second resurrection group will still possess the carnal mind/heart which will need to be burned out of them....they still need to die! (spiritually speaking of course) and this has nothing to do with a physical body.

This really is a grand subject which will likely take all of our lives and then some to truly understand....so these are just some of my humble thoughts.   
Together perhaps we can all add our insights and get closer to the truth, by the grace of God.

Peace to all of you,
Diana

« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 10:28:55 PM by skydreamers »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2007, 09:33:40 PM »


Hi rocky,

Quote
Seems to me, the death in Hebrews 9:27 is the death administered by the law, and has nothing to do with physical death.

I think you are right about that verse referring only to spiritual death.

Quote
So people will be brought to salvation, and all will eventually be brought into the kingdom as spirit beings.

Rocky writes:  

How, without another resurrection from corrupt to incorrupt??  

What I am thinking it may be, is that when those in the next age, under Christ's rule reach spiritual maturity, then they will be changed into spirit, and enter the kingdom.  This is how the elect will be changed at Christ's appearing, it is referred to as the first resurrection, because most will be raised from the grave, but those alive will only be changed to spirit.
So if there is no death after Christ returns, then why would there be a resurrection?

In Rev 21 it is speaking of Christ setting up His new kingdom, the earth will become a different place under Christ's rule.

Rev 21:1  Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
v. 2  And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
v. 3  And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
v. 4  and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
v. 5  And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
v. 6  Then He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost.
v. 7  "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

This is what Christ's will do for the people on the earth.  But verse 8 shows how He will accomplish it.

Rev 21:8  "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

There is this mention of what those that reach spiritual maturity can receive, there name written in the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 21:24  The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.
v. 25  In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;
v. 26  and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;
v. 27  and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Good post Diana  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Evan600

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2007, 09:40:47 PM »

There are precedents to the fact that Jesus can raise one from the grave or tomb to physically continue life.

Matt 9 : 25 But when the crowd had been ordered to go outside, He went in and took her by the hand, and the girl arose.

Matt 27 : 53 And coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Luke 7 : 14 And He went forward and touched the funeral bier, and the palbearers stood still. And He said, Young man I say to you, arise. And the man who was dead sat up.

Luke 11 : 43....He (Jesus) shouted with a loud voice, Lazarus, come out! 44 And out walked the man who had been dead.

Heb 11 : 35 Some women received again their dead by a resurrection...

These events in Scripture are within the scope and operation of Christ and for me they foreshadow the Resurrection to life in the Spirit of Christ, or to judgment in the flesh that is appointed to die the second death.

Not all will be raised incorruptible. Were those who were raised in the times of Christ, raised incorruptible. I don't think so. Only Christ Jesus has was and is incorruptible. Some will share in HIS inheritance appointed to HIM by the Father. Everyone will be saved but not all will be raised incorruptible to share in the reward that Christ brings to the Elect.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

Thank you for this reply Arcturus.

Although, I still have questions.  Do we know for sure that those that were raised at Christ's resurrection weren't raised incorruptible?

I'm sorry for all of the questions that I have for everyone.

I appreciate all of your answers, and replies very much, I just need more info.  You guys know how babyon was, and is, so I know that you can relate to where I'm coming from.  Lord willing, this will come clear in my mind.

In Christ,

Jason
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skydreamers

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2007, 11:40:42 PM »

Hi Jason,

Oh yes, we can all well relate to how much undoing of Babylon we all need in our lives!  If questions are stirring in your mind, this is likely God spurring you to study and seek Him out.  It's ALL good!

Quote
Although, I still have questions.  Do we know for sure that those that were raised at Christ's resurrection weren't raised incorruptible?

Your question caused me to review this passage of scripture:

Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
1Co 15:49-55


There may be some clues in this passage that can help us understand WHEN we become incorruptible. 

"...we shall ALL be changed...at the last trumpet"  When is the last trumpet?  I'm not exactly sure, but at the very least it seems it hasn't happened yet.

I had always thought the last trumpet IS the resurrection, when Jesus returns:

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:16

And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Mat 24:31

Either way, since the last trumpet has not occurred, those who were raised thus far in any resurrection, would not have been raised incorruptible.  It looks like they would have been raised back into physical "dying" bodies....and all of them would have died by now and are sleeping the sleep of death. 

Now, twice in this passage it says, that at the time of the resurrection, "we shall ALL be changed...."  Then it says, "for the dead will be raised imperishable..."  is this all the dead or just the elect dead?  I suppose it could be argued that Paul is speaking to the brethern (the elect) but I'm not sure that it is clarified here in this passage.  We know that the elect are raised to eternal (aionious) life, which seems to me clarifies what kind of life they are raised to...it seems to me aionious life is referring to the life of honor, ruling as priests and kings alongside Jesus; the age of ruling the nations with a rod of iron (the spiritual millennium age). 

Now, the rest of humanity are also raised to "life", but a different kind of life.  Their life will initially consist of a life of judgment (just as the elect experienced before them).  Once the judgment is complete, and the spiritual death to the carnal mind is experienced, then Jesus gives back the Kingdom to the Father, and God will be all in all. 

So in that sense, once the "perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality" there will be no more death of "life".  Whether that means the non-elect will have physical bodies that will eventually be changed, I don't know.  It seems to me from this passage that it is at the time of the resurrection that the "change" occurs for everyone.  Does anyone else have thoughts on this?  I suppose you may "need" the physical body to learn how to overcome such things as the "lust" of the flesh.  But then again, these things are really spiritual.  It is not your body parts themselves that are sinning, but it is the "heart" of man that is desperately wicked....it is in the heart (not a pumping organ) where sin plays itself out.  So then, what need is there of a physical body??   Things that make you go hmmm......

However, the last part of this passage raises more questions,"O death, where is your sting?"
because the next verse is:

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin comes from the Law.
1Co 15:56

Here's where I'm caused again to wonder.....this must be after "sin is no more"....and how can this be when the nations (the non-elect)  must still be purged and cleansed, that is, they are still struggling and learning to overcome sin....because "death is swallowed up in victory" only after "the perishable puts on the imperishable"....

Hey Kat, do you know if Ray writes about this??  I haven't been able to find it so far.

Anyways Jason, I hope you might be closer to your answer about those raised at Christ's resurrection.  Those were possibly yet another "physical" type of the spiritual which is yet to come.

May God shine His light of wisdom on all of us,
Peace to you brothers and sisters,
Diana

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Evan600

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2007, 02:05:32 AM »

Great post Diana!

Lord willing, we will understand these truths.

God bless,

Jason
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rocky

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2007, 02:31:03 AM »

i've been thinking more on this today, and thank you all for your feedback.

There is only ONE resurrection, and that is Jesus Christ.  He came in the flesh, a jew, under law; died to the flesh and rose again (resurrected) and declared Son of God with power, according to the spirit. 

Rom 1:4 Who is designated Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead),

He was the firstfruit, guaranteeing an order for all to be resurrected.   

The one resurrection happens in stages, Christ, the first fruit, then those at his coming (his body, the first fruits), then the end/consumation (the non elect).  All are the ONE resurrection, through the cross, death to life. 

To me, the resurrection is a process, not a single event, and we currently are being ressurected, dying to flesh, death being swallowed up in life; with full consumation at his coming.   

The resurrection of the non elect, is also a death to life process, death to "human possiblility=flesh, and life in the spirit, which is not happening now, but will occur at his coming. 

i dont' see the non elect as resurrected first, then judged, but rather the resurrection to judgment as the same thing as the ONE resurrection, where death is swallowed up in life. 


I was also thinking about how Christ died and rose again for us, but not so we don't have to die and be raised, but rather so that we can be baptized into his death.  He is the forerunner. 

Then I thot of this verse,

1Co 15:29  Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

I started thinking about the elect, and their baptism into Christ's death, how they also were being baptized for the dead, the non elect, to occur at the consumation. 

Shed new light on I Co 15:29. 

Thanks to all for the input. 

 
.
 

   

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DWIGHT

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2007, 02:51:21 AM »

Hi Diana,

We know, by God's mercy, that all scripture is one.  It all speaks of one God, one Lord and one Body.  And all the parables, stories, history, shadows, types, mysteries and revelation point to Christ.  He and He alone is the focal point of all scripture. He is, was and will be.  Every type and shadow of the old Testament and the new Testament speak of Christ.  You can't have an old (was) without having a new (is) without having Christ.  And you can't have a will be without having Christ, for He is, was and will be.  If the kindom of heaven is within you, and Christ who is the King of the kingdom is within you, then all these scriptures must be in us now.

You said, ""...we shall ALL be changed...at the last trumpet"  When is the last trumpet?  I'm not exactly sure, but at the very least it seems it hasn't happened yet.

I had always thought the last trumpet IS the resurrection, when Jesus returns:


Diana, I think all these scriptures (although they will happen in the future for sure) are happening within us today.  I think that we are being changed today...the strong delusion suggests that we won't be changed until the last trump.

2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord
.

Our problem is not the future or the past, it's now.  This verse is not for the future, it's for now....

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he IS.


In Him,

Dwight
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Redbird

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2007, 09:52:47 AM »

Dwight,

That was beautiful and I agree.  For those who have ears, and eyes to see! :)
IS, WAS, AND WILL BE.  All for our dear Lord Jesus Christ.

Glory be to God,
Lisa
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hebrewroots98

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2007, 12:20:59 PM »

Yes, Dwight, you are right; the scriptures do tell us that we are being changed daily into HIS image,.  So i am in agreement with you that this changing in us is a STRONG DELUSION to the masses who believe that they must weight for it to occur.  I thank God that it is happening NOW for some of us and that HE has given us the eyes to see these truths. :)
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skydreamers

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #36 on: April 30, 2007, 01:38:05 PM »

Hi Dwight,

Amen to your post!  I'm still learning to remember to apply the "is,was, and will be" principal to all my studies.  I do agree that the "is" application is integral to see in the scripture, especially if we are to see the spiritual meanings. 

I also see how the scriptures are all one...which is why I think the scriptures are speaking of one death.  And I love what Rocky says here about the one resurrection:

Quote
There is only ONE resurrection, and that is Jesus Christ.  He came in the flesh, a jew, under law; died to the flesh and rose again (resurrected) and declared Son of God with power, according to the spirit.

Rom 1:4 Who is designated Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead),

He was the firstfruit, guaranteeing an order for all to be resurrected.   

The one resurrection happens in stages, Christ, the first fruit, then those at his coming (his body, the first fruits), then the end/consumation (the non elect).  All are the ONE resurrection, through the cross, death to life.

To me, the resurrection is a process, not a single event, and we currently are being ressurected, dying to flesh, death being swallowed up in life; with full consumation at his coming.   

I realize that those in Christ (the elect) are being changed in their life in the flesh...(God willing that includes me!!)....but figuring out that process, especially as it is laid out in Revelation, and then trying to discern where I'm at personally within that process, is quite the challenge!!

In his talk on How Hard is Getting Saved, Ray discusses how Jesus never converted anyone during His earthly ministry.  How the first conversions were at Pentecost:

When came around Pentecost time though, a whole bunch of them were converted. About 120 of them. But Christ was leading them up to that.  And He’s probably leading some of us up to that…

All these things take a lifetime. We’re going to live “the seals”. A third part of the men died: that’s a third part of the man in us that is going to die. A third part of the carnality. God works in increments, you see. He wipes out some of the trees, and then He burns the grass…what is the trees and the grass? These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed. All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues: they are all things that must happen in our lives.



I can see how some of these things have happened in my life, and God is revealing more to me all the time.  But I have yet an overwhelming way to go. 

Dwight, you say:

Quote
Diana, I think all these scriptures (although they will happen in the future for sure) are happening within us today.  I think that we are being changed today...the strong delusion suggests that we won't be changed until the last trump.

So the changing is happening now, but the completion of that change, when we are finally immortal and incorruptible, won't happen until the last trump...am I understanding this right?  I guess I'm just not yet clued in as to how the last trump happens in the life of the elect, or even what it is.  Because if it is at that time that the mortal is changed to immortal etc. how can this be since while living in the flesh we yet carry sin....while living in the flesh we are still corruptible, right? 

I pray God gives me eyes to see! 

Thanks Dwight for inspiring me to look deeper,

Peace,
Diana
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CEO

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #37 on: April 30, 2007, 05:41:39 PM »

Two resurections:

   Two resurrections is fundamental to Rays teachings.  I hope, you hope, we hope to attain to the first resurrection, also known as the high calling, the prize, the crown , our reward.  If we attain the first resurrection it is because we have gone through the judging that begins in the house of God.  Having been judged in this life is how we attain the first resurrection to life.
   All others are in the second resurrection, the resurrection to judgment.
   All others includes everyone in the OT and anyone who has not received the holy spirit and love the truth.  The first resurrection elect do the judging of the second.  Review Ray's Secret rapture paper and also Understanding Gods Truths, particularly #9.
   Kat, I don't see where those in the second resurrection are resurrected  with physical bodies as death is destoyed in the lake of fire.

                                          Ask seeknock

                                           Charles O
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Kat

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2007, 05:58:46 PM »


Hi CEO,

I agree with your post.
And I don't have much to argue with you or any scripture about people having physical bodies after second resurrection.  It just seems to me if they are going to be put on earth and learn to live righteous lives, it would be with a physical body.  I wouldn't think they deserve a spiritual body yet either.  There are those cases of people being raised to physical life in scripture, so we do have that example.  I know those did eventually die, but the ones after the second resurrection could just be changed to spirit, when they were ready for it.
This is just speculation on my part.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Evan600

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2007, 08:13:41 PM »


Diana, I think all these scriptures (although they will happen in the future for sure) are happening within us today.  I think that we are being changed today...the strong delusion suggests that we won't be changed until the last trump.

2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord
.

Our problem is not the future or the past, it's now.  This verse is not for the future, it's for now....

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he IS.


In Him,

Dwight


Amen to that!!!!

That verse in 2 Cor. is such a powerful one!!!!! 

"The revelation of Jesus Christ" in God's very Elect!!!

God bless,

Jason
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