> General Discussions
Two resurrections; when do they take place?
rocky:
--- Quote from: Kat on April 28, 2007, 10:08:20 PM ---
Hi Jason,
--- Quote ---Where is the Scripture that explains this "physical resurrection?" I'm looking at the verse in John 5, and I don't see any indication of another 'type' of resurrection.
--- End quote ---
John 5:29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.
This resurrection to 'life' is the first resurrection of the elect, into the kingdom. That will take place immediately at Christ's appearing, even before He comes to the earth.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
Now this first resurrection is when the elect will be brought into the kingdom and given 'life.'
John 17:2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal(age-abiding) life to all You have given Him.
v. 3 And this is life eternal(age-abiding), that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 20:31 But these are written so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you might have life in His name.
To be resurrected to 'life' is a reward only given to the few elect that will rule with Christ.
To be resurrected to condemnation is another thing altogether.
There is also the scripture of the sheep and the goats, the elect are the sheep.
The goats will not be in this same resurrection of life into the kingdom, but they will be resurrected then also, but to judgment, big difference.
Mat 25:31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory.
v. 32 And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.
v. 33 And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left.
v. 34 Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
v. 41 Then He also shall say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting(age-abiding) fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
v. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting(age-abiding) punishment, but the righteous into everlasting(age-abiding) life.
--- Quote ---Again, this brings up the same question. Where does the Scripture say that there are dead that are raised corruptible?
--- End quote ---
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
v. 8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
As you can see all of those that are cast into the Lake of fire are corrupted. They have died physically once, then it will be time for their second death spiritually.
This all will happen on this earth, all those resurrected are the ones Christ will rule with a rod of iron, along with whom ever is alive on earth at that time.
At least that is what I see in these scripture.
Rev 5:10 And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
thanks again Kat, that was very helpful.
So what happens to those in the resurrection of condemnation after second death, after death of death? do they physically die again? do they get ever get a spritual body? They are on/of the earth, but we know the earth will pass away when all is fufilled.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
What i still struggle with is the physical death part. Seems to me we all are dead, even though we physically live, and those who hear have proceeded out of death (from a state of death) into life.
Seems to me those who don't hear his voice, stay in a state of death, and are brought into (resurrected unto) judgment. I'm not sure i see it as they have had to physically die first.
but it is interesting the verse that talks about this does say "tomb".
Joh 5:24 "Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that coming is an hour, and now is, when the dead shall be hearing the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall be living.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.
a lot to think about.
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Rocky
Not that Kat needs any help to answer but here is my view regarding your questions for what it is worth. My comments are in blue.
thanks again Kat, that was very helpful.
So what happens to those in the resurrection of condemnation after second death, after death of death? do they physically die again? do they get ever get a spritual body? They are on/of the earth, but we know the earth will pass away when all is fufilled.
In the resurrection of condemnation AFTER the second death....they are SAVED, REDEEMED, PURIFIED, CORRECTED AND THE CROOKED IS MADE STRAIGHT. Do they physically die again AFTER THE SECOND DEATH? No. Do they ever get a spirityual body? Yes. As the Scriptures promise.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
What i still struggle with is the physical death part. Seems to me we all are dead, even though we physically live, and those who hear have proceeded out of death (from a state of death) into life.
What you say here is correct. We are alive in the flesh yet many are dead in their tresspasses and have not yet died with Christ to sin. There are some who have been babtised into the death of Christ who are dead to sin yet still are in the flesh and these are hearing HIS voice and following HIS steps.
So what is the problem? I do not see the struggle. You are correct.
Seems to me those who don't hear his voice, stay in a state of death, and are brought into (resurrected unto) judgment. I'm not sure i see it as they have had to physically die first.
Who says they have to physically die first? Do you mean they have to physically die first or die to the flesh? Lets take the first possibility. They have to physically die first is not scriptural because Christ will return when there are those who have not yet died physically or to the flesh. If you mean that they have to die to the flesh first then they will discern the voice and see the Spirit of Christ, then yes these are the Elect and chosen who have already passed judgement in their life times. As for the others, theirs is the judgment to the resurrection of the wicked and to meet their sentence.
but it is interesting the verse that talks about this does say "tomb".
Anything short of the life of Christ is a condition of partial death.All have fallen short of the Glory and non are saved or born again. The most anyone has is the deposit and promise of reward which requires the faith from God that is HIS gift to those HE chooses.
The physically and spiritually dead will not live until Christ returns. Only HE brings with HIM our full redemption. Only HE is the Resurrection and THE LIFE. For me, those dead that will not live again, is for those who will suffer the second death and then be saved. Not all will suffer the second death but many will as there are only few who are chosen.
Joh 5:24 "Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that coming is an hour, and now is, when the dead shall be hearing the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear shall be living.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this, for coming is the hour in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice,
Joh 5:29 and those who do good shall go out into a resurrection of life, yet those who commit bad things, into a resurrection of judging.
a lot to think about.
There ceratinly is a lot to ponder and seek understanding about. Understanding comes only from the Spirit and the Spirit knows everything. That is a lot! ;D
Thank you for letting me voice my perspective. Hope it adds and helps.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Evan600:
--- Quote from: Kat on April 28, 2007, 10:08:20 PM ---
Hi Jason,
--- Quote ---Where is the Scripture that explains this "physical resurrection?" I'm looking at the verse in John 5, and I don't see any indication of another 'type' of resurrection.
--- End quote ---
John 5:29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.
This resurrection to 'life' is the first resurrection of the elect, into the kingdom. That will take place immediately at Christ's appearing, even before He comes to the earth.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.
Now this first resurrection is when the elect will be brought into the kingdom and given 'life.'
John 17:2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal(age-abiding) life to all You have given Him.
v. 3 And this is life eternal(age-abiding), that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 20:31 But these are written so that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you might have life in His name.
To be resurrected to 'life' is a reward only given to the few elect that will rule with Christ.
To be resurrected to condemnation is another thing altogether.
There is also the scripture of the sheep and the goats, the elect are the sheep.
The goats will not be in this same resurrection of life into the kingdom, but they will be resurrected then also, but to judgment, big difference.
Mat 25:31 But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory.
v. 32 And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.
v. 33 And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left.
v. 34 Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
v. 41 Then He also shall say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting(age-abiding) fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
v. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting(age-abiding) punishment, but the righteous into everlasting(age-abiding) life.
--- End quote ---
I agree with everything here thus far.
--- Quote from: Kat on April 28, 2007, 10:08:20 PM ---
--- Quote ---Again, this brings up the same question. Where does the Scripture say that there are dead that are raised corruptible?
--- End quote ---
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
v. 8 But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
As you can see all of those that are cast into the Lake of fire are corrupted. They have died physically once, then it will be time for their second death spiritually.
This all will happen on this earth, all those resurrected are the ones Christ will rule with a rod of iron, along with whom ever is alive on earth at that time.
At least that is what I see in these scripture.
Rev 5:10 And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign over the earth.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
It is the above that I don't understand. You said:
"They have died physically once, then it will be time for their second death spiritually."
I agree that the second death is die spiritually. That is not my question. My question arises when you mentioned earlier that those that go to the lake are raised in physical bodies. In order for it to make sense with the Scripture, there must be more than just one verse explaining that those that go to the lake are raised in physical bodies.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And a couple verses above this also:
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
I realize that the carnal mind is going to be 'burned' out of those that go to the lake. If the resurrection of the dead has people that are raised incorruptible, then clearly they are not raised corruptible. If that were the case, Paul would not have said that the resurrection(any resurrection, just the resurrection of the dead, any dead) consists of being raised incorruptible.
Am I missing something else here? I just don't see any physical bodies being raised up anywhere. Perhaps spiritual bodies that are raised with some kind of spiritual flesh like Jesus, and spiritual bone, but not physical as we see now. That might even be a stretch, but that is the closest answer that I have right now.
God bless,
Jason
Deborah-Leigh:
There are precedents to the fact that Jesus can raise one from the grave or tomb to physically continue life.
Matt 9 : 25 But when the crowd had been ordered to go outside, He went in and took her by the hand, and the girl arose.
Matt 27 : 53 And coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Luke 7 : 14 And He went forward and touched the funeral bier, and the palbearers stood still. And He said, Young man I say to you, arise. And the man who was dead sat up.
Luke 11 : 43....He (Jesus) shouted with a loud voice, Lazarus, come out! 44 And out walked the man who had been dead.
Heb 11 : 35 Some women received again their dead by a resurrection...
These events in Scripture are within the scope and operation of Christ and for me they foreshadow the Resurrection to life in the Spirit of Christ, or to judgment in the flesh that is appointed to die the second death.
Not all will be raised incorruptible. Were those who were raised in the times of Christ, raised incorruptible. I don't think so. Only Christ Jesus has was and is incorruptible. Some will share in HIS inheritance appointed to HIM by the Father. Everyone will be saved but not all will be raised incorruptible to share in the reward that Christ brings to the Elect.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Kat:
Hi rocky,
--- Quote --- Seems to me we all are dead, even though we physically live, and those who hear have proceeded out of death (from a state of death) into life.
--- End quote ---
This is true, we are all dead spiritually, tho alive physiaclly, until our eyes are opened. The whole world is dead, only when Christ comes in to you and your eyes are opened, then you have life.
As the parable of the sower, only a few seed fell on good ground, that is the few that are chosen now.
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not; nor do they understand.
v. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which said, "By hearing you shall hear and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see and shall not perceive; (Isa 6:9)
v. 15 for this people's heart has become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and they have closed their eyes, lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."
v. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.
v. 17 For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which you see, and have not seen them; and to hear what you hear, and have not heard them.
But in this physical life the elect only receive the earnest of the Spirit and will receive the fullness in the resurrection, when the elect become spirit, as Christ so shall we be.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
2Cor 1:22 And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
--- Quote ---Seems to me those who don't hear his voice, stay in a state of death, and are brought into (resurrected unto) judgment. I'm not sure i see it as they have had to physically die first.
--- End quote ---
Well we all die in this life. The exception would be that generation at Christ's return.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,
And the vast majority will not have had their eyes open to the truth, before they die. So when all are resurrected, they will then have their eyes opened. But it will be a process of coming to the truth, they have to unlearn all the false teaching, just like the elect do now. They will have to learn to live a righteous life, just like the elect do now.
--- Quote ---So what happens to those in the resurrection of condemnation after second death, after death of death? do they physically die again? do they get ever get a spritual body? They are on/of the earth, but we know the earth will pass away when all is fufilled.
--- End quote ---
When Christ returns there "will be no more death." (Rev 21:4)
So people will be brought to salvation, and all will eventually be brought into the kingdom as spirit beings. This is when Christ will turn His kingdom over to the Father and all will be all together as one.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.
This heaven and earth passing away, hummm, it sounds symbolic in 2 Peter. It does say it's 'the day of the Lord,' so it may mean that the ways of the earth will be changed. We know that the spiritual fire does not actually burn physical things up.
2Peter 3:10 Howbeit the day of the Lord will be here, as a thief,—in which, the heavens, with a rushing noise, will pass away, while, elements, becoming intensely hot, will be dissolved, and, earth, and the works therein, will be discovered. (Rotherham)
Hi Jason,
The resurrection is on the 'day of the Lord' first for the just to be brought into the kingdom incorruptible. Then on the same 'day' the unjust or corrupt, to be cast into the Lake of fire to be judged. This is the resurrection of all the dead.
Act 24:15 And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
When Christ and the elect returns He will judge on the earth or the people that are on it. Spirit being are not bound by the earth, they would be in the heavenly kingdom.
Psa 98:9 before Jehovah; for He comes to judge the earth; with righteousness He shall judge the world, and the peoples in uprightness.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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