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Author Topic: Two resurrections; when do they take place?  (Read 42598 times)

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DWIGHT

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #40 on: April 30, 2007, 09:30:48 PM »

Hi Diana,

The very fact that you are asking for eyes to see and ears to hear, shows that you, and all who are seeking the same, will hear and see.  You said....

"So the changing is happening now, but the completion of that change, when we are finally immortal and incorruptible, won't happen until the last trump...am I understanding this right?  I guess I'm just not yet clued in as to how the last trump happens in the life of the elect, or even what it is.  Because if it is at that time that the mortal is changed to immortal etc. how can this be since while living in the flesh we yet carry sin....while living in the flesh we are still corruptible, right?"

The book of Revelation begins with, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev. 1:3

Notice, "for the time is at hand."The time is at hand and yet that was two thousand years ago. 

John also said...

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


Two thousand years ago it was,"the last time," and, "the time is at hand."  We do know that the book of Revelation is a book of symbols. 

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified (symbolized) it by his angel unto his servant John: Rev. 1:1

Symbolic of what?  The last time, and the time is at hand, that's what.  Now if you take the principle of is, was and will be, there is no difference in John's day than our day.  So all those symbols that he saw in his day, we have now in our day.

The seven angels (messengers) to the seven churches, the seven seals, the seven trumpets, the seven plagues, the two witnesses and the 144,000 etc. are all God's elect.  Even as you quoted Ray...

"All these things take a lifetime. We’re going to live “the seals”. A third part of the men died: that’s a third part of the man in us that is going to die. A third part of the carnality. God works in increments, you see. He wipes out some of the trees, and then He burns the grass…what is the trees and the grass? These are all things in us. We have islands, and mountains, and trees, and grass. All of these are belief systems and ideas and doctrines and philosophies of life and all these things. And they are all going to be burned out and broken down and destroyed. All of those seven seals, seven trumpets, seven plagues: they are all things that must happen in our lives."

This is why Babylon (Christianity) cannot understand the mysteries of the kindom of heaven.  God does not want them to understand.

Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


We are the last trumpet.  The first shall be last, and the last (trump) shall be first.  Everthing in the scriptures are the "called and the chosen."  When we look at the scriptures in this way, it will help us see much clearer the deep things of God.  Hope this helps a little.

In His love,

Dwight









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hillsbororiver

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #41 on: April 30, 2007, 10:51:39 PM »

Hi everyone,

I have been only observing this thread but I want to put a couple of ideas out there into the mix.


1Co 6:3  Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Would angels then be transformed into flesh, bone & blood to go through a judgment? Is it possible (of course all things are possible with God) that those risen to "the second death" don't even realize they have died or been resurrected? Now this is pure speculation on my part and a just thought, not even a theory. I have not discovered anything definitive yet on those who are risen to the White Throne Judgment, remember the Revelation is a book of symbols and we should be careful to not take it purely literal.

But if angels (spiritual creatures with carnal minds) can be transformed in the Lake of Fire, why not a risen (in a spirit body) man also be purified in a like manner?

The second part is while reading this I began to think about what Peter wrote in 1Peter Chapter 4;


(I prefer the Rotherham's Translation here)

1Peter 4:12 Beloved! be not held in surprise by the burning among you, which [for putting you to the proof] is befalling you. As though a [surprising] thing were happening unto you;

1Peter 4:13 But <in so far as ye are taking fellowship in the Christ's sufferings> rejoice!
In order that in the revealing of His glory also ye may rejoice with exultation:

1Peter 4:14 <If ye are being reproached in the name of Christ > happy [are ye]!

1Peter 4:15 For let [none of you] be suffering as a murderer, or as a thief, or an evil doer, or as one prying into other men's affairs;

1Peter 4:16 But < if as a Christian> let him not be ashamed, but be glorifying God in this name.

1Peter 4:17 For it is ripe for the judgment to begin with the house of God;
But <if first with us> what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

1Peter 4:18 And <if the righteous man is with difficulty saved> Where then shall the ungodly and sinful man appear?

This (I believe) testifies to a different experience for unbelievers and the called than what it is, was, and will be experienced by His elect.

His Peace to you,

Joe











 
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 11:04:37 PM by hillsbororiver »
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seminole

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2007, 01:52:17 AM »

I don't have the reasoning powers to understand all this. What I do know is that He is sufficient and it will all happen in the way God has planned. Study and meditation on the scripture is vitally important and as important is showing through our lives the change that the Holy Spirit has made in our lives. I apologize for interrupting the study going on but I believe faith is the answer and reaching out to others that come into our lives is what is most pleasing to God. He's got the future covered whether it is eternity, tomorrow , aionian(?) .
Seminole
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skydreamers

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2007, 02:01:12 PM »

Hi Everyone,

There is much to ponder and study in this thread!

Quote
Two resurections:


   Two resurrections is fundamental to Rays teachings.  I hope, you hope, we hope to attain to the first resurrection, also known as the high calling, the prize, the crown , our reward.  If we attain the first resurrection it is because we have gone through the judging that begins in the house of God.  Having been judged in this life is how we attain the first resurrection to life.
   All others are in the second resurrection, the resurrection to judgment.
   All others includes everyone in the OT and anyone who has not received the holy spirit and love the truth.  The first resurrection elect do the judging of the second.  Review Ray's Secret rapture paper and also Understanding Gods Truths, particularly #9.

Of course you are right Charles..there is a first and a second resurrection, and we are to reach for the high calling of the "better" resurrection (Heb 11:35).  But I also understand what Rocky is saying about the ONE resurrection, being Jesus Christ.  Without his death and resurrection there would not be any for us, and it is through Him that all of us are resurrected.  So while there are two resurrections, I don't see the resurrections themselves as being "different" but rather the resurrections of two "different" groups of people.  This may be "splitting hairs" so I apologize, I only wanted to show how I can think that both of you could be right ;)

Quote
Kat, I don't see where those in the second resurrection are resurrected  with physical bodies as death is destoyed in the lake of fire.

I have wondered in the past about the passage in Ezekiel 37:1-14 where it looks like there is a resurrection to physical bones and flesh, but whether this is really what it means....I don't know.  Bones and sinew could be symbolic for something spiritual maybe?  Still waiting on the Lord on this one.... ???

Dwight,
Thank you for taking the time to help me understand.  God may be putting you and your family through many trials, but he has also blessed you with a heart that searches out the deep things of God!  I always learn something from you and it inspires me to never stop looking deeper...thank you! :)

Quote
We are the last trumpet.  The first shall be last, and the last (trump) shall be first.  Everthing in the scriptures are the "called and the chosen."  When we look at the scriptures in this way, it will help us see much clearer the deep things of God.  Hope this helps a little.


Helps a lot brother!

Hi Joe,

Quote
Is it possible (of course all things are possible with God) that those risen to "the second death" don't even realize they have died or been resurrected?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has had thoughts like this!!  This is an intriguing thought...especially since death itself is unconscious, to our perspective we pass from life to life, going to sleep and waking up as if we've had a night's rest. 

Quote
1Peter 4:17 For it is ripe for the judgment to begin with the house of God;
But <if first with us> what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

1Peter 4:18 And <if the righteous man is with difficulty saved> Where then shall the ungodly and sinful man appear?

This (I believe) testifies to a different experience for unbelievers and the called than what it is, was, and will be experienced by His elect.

It seems it likely will be scariest for those who have a perverted view of God, thinking Him capable of throwing His children into a fiery pit of torture....

with the pure you show yourself pure; and with the crooked you show yourself perverse.
Psa 18:26 (NRS)

or here's how the Douay-Rheims renders it:

And with the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.
Psa 18:26

Remember Joseph's brothers?  Even after they were all re-united and Joseph had provided for them, this whole time the brothers still thought Joseph would yet take revenge on them, and kill them.  They still did not comprehend that Joseph (representing Elect/Christ) did not operate or think like them....This is why forgiveness and love is so important to learn and embrace in this life.  If you carry in your heart the desire to see your enemies roasting in an eternal hell....you may experience for a season that this is happening to you on resurrection day....

what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?
1Pe 4:17

For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:2

May we all yield to the glad-message of God now, in this life!!

Peace,
Diana
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #44 on: May 01, 2007, 02:28:28 PM »


There is so much being brought out in this topic.
One thing I would like to mention is about the trumpet, Ray has a segment in his no. 13 paper "Jesus Christ is the sounding Trumpet."  Here is an excerpt from that paper.

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html -------------------------

JESUS CHRIST IS THE SOUNDING TRUMPET

"…AND HEARD BEHIND ME A GREAT VOICE, AS OF A TRUMPET, saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last…"

The Alpha and Omega is CHRIST. This "voice of a trumpet" is Christ. There is something most interesting about this statement of John’s. John says he "heard behind me a GREAT voice, as of a trumpet."

You will be interested to learn that the word "great" is used 72 times in Revelation. But only five times is it said to be a "great VOICE." We will look at the last four and then come back to the first:
-----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat 

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #45 on: May 01, 2007, 03:12:26 PM »

Thanks for clearing that up Kat!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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iris

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #46 on: May 01, 2007, 03:56:54 PM »

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (together, at the same time??)

v. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

v. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put n incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY.

Ray says "Look at the words."

We have a physical body, we will have a spiritual body.

IT'S ALL ONE!!!


Iris
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CEO

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2007, 04:27:35 PM »

Hi

    Thank yall for your comments.  I feel we are all very close in our understanding.  Compare our views with the other 6 1/2 billion souls on earth today.  I am sorry I will not be in Nashville.  Verbalizing give and take on the fine details would be really fun.

                                          Askseeknock

                                           Charles O
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2007, 03:38:29 AM »



I believe and as I have accepted and been taught here in Bible Truths,the Judgment is on the house of God now means NOW upon those called and chosen. Those who are called and not chosen will be raised to judgement in the second Resurrection at the White Throne.

God does not change and this process of changing us to His image has been on going since the garden of Eden, and continued once Christ came and it will continue until He returns.

After Christ returns then the elect and Christ will correct, train and judge those that remain in the second Resurrection. Once all is put under the feet of Christ to adore and recognise HIM as Lord of all and King above all, then Christ will submit to God all and HIMSELF and then after that God will be All in all.

Arcturus :)

This post brings up a question i have. 

We know in this verse

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

this seems sequential to me, die and then judgment. 


Dying comes before judgment.  God doesn't change; and judgment is now on house of God.  So the elect must of died already if we are going through judgment now (as judgment is after death).  So this death seems to me must not be a physical death, if we are already going through judgment.  And this judgment must not be producing death, as judgment is after death.  So the elect die first, undergo judgment, then are resurrected, never to die again. 

elect:  die---->judgment now (in a state of death)-------->resurrected to life.

Now, it seems to me the non elect, die first, are resurrected to life next (rather than judged first), and then go through judgment.  So judgment,  is after resurrected life.   


non elect:  die-------->resurrected to life------->judged-------->???die again second death??-------->???resurrected again???
 

Am i way off on this??  seems God does change (at least in his order) in how he deals with elect versus non elect. 

any ideas??




The DEAD aren't ressurected to LIFE. They are THE DEAD STANDING. Literaly that makes no sence, the dead CANNOT stand, but in this we are seeing tehse people are still SPIRITUALY DEAD. Then they are put through the fire of Judgement, and given life after. Death - Judgement, LIFE.

Make sence? sorry this is late lol, i thought the forums were down, or they were with me.

If this was answered, my apoligies also.

Love in Christ,

Alex
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rocky

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2007, 10:24:15 AM »


This post brings up a question i have. 

We know in this verse

Heb 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

this seems sequential to me, die and then judgment. 


Dying comes before judgment.  God doesn't change; and judgment is now on house of God.  So the elect must of died already if we are going through judgment now (as judgment is after death).  So this death seems to me must not be a physical death, if we are already going through judgment.  And this judgment must not be producing death, as judgment is after death.  So the elect die first, undergo judgment, then are resurrected, never to die again. 

elect:  die---->judgment now (in a state of death)-------->resurrected to life.

Now, it seems to me the non elect, die first, are resurrected to life next (rather than judged first), and then go through judgment.  So judgment,  is after resurrected life.   


non elect:  die-------->resurrected to life------->judged-------->???die again second death??-------->???resurrected again???
 

Am i way off on this??  seems God does change (at least in his order) in how he deals with elect versus non elect. 

any ideas??





Alex writes: 

The DEAD aren't ressurected to LIFE. They are THE DEAD STANDING. Literaly that makes no sence, the dead CANNOT stand, but in this we are seeing tehse people are still SPIRITUALY DEAD. Then they are put through the fire of Judgement, and given life after. Death - Judgement, LIFE.

Make sence? sorry this is late lol, i thought the forums were down, or they were with me.

If this was answered, my apoligies also.

Love in Christ,

Alex
[/quote]


Rocky writes:

I understand what you are saying, but how does a physically dead person (one whose spirit returns to the Lord, flesh goes to dust, and soul ceases to exist) come to "Dead Standing" in order to be judged? 

To me, it has to be through a resurrection.  Like arcturus said, maybe it's a resurrection to a physical body again in order to be judged.  I personally don't think this is the case.  Jesus is the resurrection.  I don't see after the cross, him raising people up temporarily again to physical life in order to judge them.  But it is possible.   

Here is what i am thinking, the second death is the second resurrection.  It's a process, with a final consumation.  To me this is the same as those going through the first resurrection (it is a process, now are going through it, with a consumation later).  I think that is what you are saying too, by LIFE being the last thing given.  The process of resurrection equals death to death=LIFE. 

I just struggle with how this is done after physical death?  Maybe the soul/carnal mind can exist without a physical body??  or all the people who ever died physically will be brought back to a physical life, to be judged in second death??
 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 10:26:29 AM by rocky »
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2007, 03:46:11 PM »


The soul comes into existence through the Spirit of God and the dust made flesh. The soul can not exist independently as has been taught by pagan Egypt and believed in error by many.

Jesus said Matt 8:28 Follow ME, and let the DEAD bury their own dead.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2007, 04:45:00 PM »


Hi Arcturus,

Yes God breaths into all livings creatures the breath of life.

Gen 7:22  of all that was on the dry land, all in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died.

I would like to add that it is another Spirit from God that is given to the elect now, and all will evenually receive the Holy Spirit also, but now in this life only the chosen few.

John 14:26  But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4176.0.html -----------

ALL men (and animals) have a spirit. This spirit gives life to the body and produces soul (feelings, thinking, emotions, etc.). But God dwells in our hearts and minds by way of His HOLY Spirit, which is a different spirit.

        God be with you,
        Ray
---------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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rocky

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2007, 05:03:45 PM »

Arcturus and Kat, I agree. 

And if the LOF judgment is to "burn out" the carnal mind/"soul" through the LIFE giving Spirit, then it must be on a human as it is in humans the carnal mind/soul exists. 

So this to me supports that I Corinthians 15 is for believers only, and not for non believers.  The resurrection to judgment (John 5) appears to be on humans (a soul (body plus spirit being). 

Unless the carnal mind is not the same thing as the soul, "thinking, emotions, etc.). 

Or unless we are missing something in our thinking. 

For some reason, the resurrection to judgment doesn't "feel right" to me in thinking it is on a "resurrected human again".  But that could be just my carnal mind thinking this. 

thanks to all for your replies. 

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2007, 05:51:24 PM »

Rocky

Our spirit is conformed to the image of HIS Spirit. We are not annihilated. We are conformed!

Thanks Kat for the input. Yes, the Spirit of Christ dwells within those chosen and only with   not within those called. The throne of the Beast has to be converted over to Christ by the Spirit of Christ as I understand this.

peace to you

Arcturus :)
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2007, 06:29:44 PM »



There is yet another consideration of the resurrection of the dead, and that is all the babies and young children that have died.  So what age would they be raised to, if not the age of their death? 
These little ones brought up from the grave will need a place to grow up, I would think physically. 
If the elect are raised to rule the earth, and the resurrection of the dead is on the physical earth, why would the rest of the dead be raised spirit? 
So this is not really that simple, that everyone will be raised and purged spiritually.
The Lake of fire judgment is a process of learning to 'live' a righteous life.  Just like the elect are now, with the spirit of Christ indwelling, but living and learning while still physically alive. 
Well just something else to think about.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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rocky

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2007, 10:09:13 PM »

Does anyone know what Ray believes re: if people are resurrected to judgment in a physical body again, or spiritual body?
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rocky

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2007, 10:27:24 PM »

i went ahead and emailed him.  Hopefuly he will have time to respond.
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Evan600

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2007, 12:34:44 AM »

 

Here is what i am thinking, the second death is the second resurrection.  It's a process, with a final consumation.  To me this is the same as those going through the first resurrection (it is a process, now are going through it, with a consumation later).  I think that is what you are saying too, by LIFE being the last thing given.  The process of resurrection equals death to death=LIFE. 

 

This, my friend, is a very interesting thought.

God bless,

Jason
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joyful1

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2007, 01:11:09 AM »

:-\ I gotta tell you guys that basically, these same questions that you've discussed here, have been heavy on my own heart for a couple of weeks now!

1) if flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the kingdom....then those that ARE flesh and blood after the first resurrection could exist IN THE KINGDOM....but will NOT INHERIT the kingdom.

2) if, at the end of the millennium, no one is saved still....what purpose did the elect serve in "ruling and reigning" with Christ for the thousand years?

3) Since Satan is bound during that period....how can anyone learn to be an "overcomer" during that time?

4) if a "sudden conversion" like Paul's on the road to Damascus is an example of how the Lake of Fire "transforms" people....and Paul learned to "die to self" AFTER his conversion....what about the parallel of those destined for the Lake of Fire?

and many other similar questions...
Kat...I really appreciate what you've done: categorizing the teachings on Ray's site so that we all may learn more efficiently ...but all of these questions remain in my mind and I am seeking the Lord's answers daily now....as if in a RACE....I want to KNOW the TRUTH...I hope for EYES to SEE and EARS to HEAR!

God bless you all in your diligent search of the scriptures!
Joyce  :)
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skydreamers

  • Guest
Re: Two resurrections; when do they take place?
« Reply #59 on: May 03, 2007, 02:44:48 AM »

Quote
There is yet another consideration of the resurrection of the dead, and that is all the babies and young children that have died.  So what age would they be raised to, if not the age of their death?
These little ones brought up from the grave will need a place to grow up, I would think physically.
If the elect are raised to rule the earth, and the resurrection of the dead is on the physical earth, why would the rest of the dead be raised spirit?

Kat, this made me think of these verses:

Isaiah 65:17-24 ESV
17  "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth, and the former things shall not be remembered or come into mind.

18  But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.

19  I will rejoice in Jerusalem and be glad in my people; no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping and the cry of distress.

20  No more shall there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not fill out his days, for the young man shall die a hundred years old, and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.

21  They shall build houses and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.

22  They shall not build and another inhabit; they shall not plant and another eat; for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

23  They shall not labor in vain or bear children for calamity, for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the LORD, and their descendants with them.

24  Before they call I will answer; while they are yet speaking I will hear.


I've wondered if this passage is speaking about the thousand years when the elect are ruling as Priests and Kings (my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands).

It looks like during this period, when God creates the new heavens and the new earth, people are laboring and bearing children.  Yet we read here:

Mark 12:25 ESV
25  For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

This passage sure sounds like it would be that blissful period of the millennium when Satan is bound.  I've often wondered why God would loose Satan on such a supposed utopia....and this falls into the category of Joyce's question:

Quote
3) Since Satan is bound during that period....how can anyone learn to be an "overcomer" during that time?

It looks like, with the elect and Christ ruling the nations with a rod of iron, no sin will be tolerated and perhaps will be dealt with on the spot...so in some ways the people will learn the evils of sin and repent...

But Satan's job is to destroy the flesh, to consume it:

1 Corinthians 5:5 ESV
5  you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh

and we know that the serpent (Satan) eats dust (man)

so, I'm thinking Satan is released to finally put an end to all flesh (whether that's literal physical flesh, or some spiritual carnality of the mind I don't know) but either way it seems Satan must complete his mission before he himself can be converted....

I just can't figure out why else God would release Satan ???

Peace,

Diana
This seems to be the never ending thread! :D


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