Topic: Two resurrections; when do they take place? (Read 43322 times)

Kat · « **Reply #80 on:** May 27, 2007, 11:19:37 AM »

Hi Joe,

That is an interesting way to look at it. I'm sure that is a good application of the tares.
But I have a different perspective also

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Now I'm thinking the tares are those who come among the elect, in many ways they look like the chosen, but they do not have the Holy Spirit indwelling. There are these 'tares' that remain among the elect until Christ returns.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departure grievous wolves shall enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

These wolves are wearing sheeps clothing(Matt7:15), they look like the elect, but are not.
The tares are mixed and mingled among the elect, and they do not know who the 'tares' are.
These 'tares' need to be separated from the body of Christ, which is His church(Col 1:24), before they meet Christ.

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
v. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

The whole church of Christ--the elect, will go to meet Christ in the air, this is when the wheat will be gather to Christ. But first the tares must be removed from the body.
This looks like the way it is explained in the scripture about the sheep and the goats.

Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
v. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
v. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, "Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

I agree with Arcturus, all the scriptures that I could find on Christ reigning, referred to after His return.
Now I don't think it would be wrong to say He is reigning in the lives of the elect now. Maybe that can be applied to this scripture.

Rom 5:17 If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ .

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

rocky · « **Reply #81 on:** May 27, 2007, 12:37:25 PM »

Thanks for the replies.

Joe, I do see and have thought of your interpretation of tares and wheat, and I think that is another application (an internal one). And I do see the tares being burned out of me, and the wheat hopefully is all that will be left.

But as I think Ray has said in the past, all the parables tell the same story, "called versus chosen". Thanks Kat for your explanation of the tares and wheat too, I'm still hung up on the tares gathered "first". Maybe it's to many years of rapture thinking still messing me up.

Kat writes: "Now I don't think it would be wrong to say He is reigning in the lives of the elect now. Maybe that can be applied to this scripture.

Rom 5:17 If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ ."

The way I see the verse above, is it is "those who recieve grace" that reign through Christ. So are we reigning now with him? Obviously Christ is judging us now to conform us into his image, by his mercy; but at the same time purposely using us to start the defeat of the enemies (death=Israel) through us making them jealous.

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death (seems to me, the making of Israel jealous is part of his plan to defeat the death in them).

If we are reigning with him, it is not fully manifest in my opinion, as grace is yet to be fully manifest.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Arcturus, if Christ is not king now, and has no kingdom yet; then how can we be translated into his kingdom?

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Is this scripture purely future? Are we (should say hopefully we, the chosen) still children of the night/darkness until the return of Christ; or are we children of the day, daily being conformed into his image by grace (life), not by law (death)?

1Th 5:5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness.

Thank you again for your replies and the opportunity to express things "outloud", as I dig.

Deborah-Leigh · « **Reply #82 on:** May 27, 2007, 01:16:30 PM »

Rocky

Arcturus, if Christ is not king now,

EXCUSE ME? What does that mean? If Christ is not king now...WHAT? This comment immediately brings me to recall what Jesus said to Pontius Pilot John 18 : 36 My Kingdom, kingship, royal power belongs not to this world. IF MY KINGDOM were of this world, My followers would have been fighting to keep Me from being handed over to the Jews. But AS IT IS, MY KINGDOM IS NOT FROM HERE, THIS WORLD, IT HAS NO SUCH ORIGIN OR SOURCE.

You say...and has no kingdom yet; WHAT....WHO HOW? WHERE

You counter with the question ; then how can we be translated into his kingdom?....

OH I get it. Now I see your confusion. Look again at Genesis Rocky. It all begins THERE.

The translation is not Genesis 1 : 27 So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them....as to say that they were already IN THE IMAGE of GOD. NO! How can the image of God sin against God? It can't! So Gen. 1 : 27 shows that this was the beginning of the work of God creating Sons and Daughters who would be perfected into the image of HIS SON. This is supported by Paul and the Scriptures show it over and over again. This was the beginning, the start and the work is a work IN PROGRESS until CHRIST comes AGAIN. Christ IS COMING AGAIN!

Then you pick up the following Scripture:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

YES This is the hope and the promise not the fulfilment in to-days times for the Kingdom of God is within not without yet. As Joe said. The tare is in us and is being burnt out in judgment to perfection on the chosen few.

You ask : Is this scripture purely future? Are we (should say hopefully we, the chosen) still children of the night/darkness until the return of Christ; or are we children of the day, daily being conformed into his image by grace (life), not by law (death)?

WE ARE NOT SINLESS. Are children of light sinless? YES. We are not there yet Rocky. We are not even BORN YET!

We are following THE LIGHT that is CHRIST and HE is leading us into becoming His Children of His Light

We are still in the race. The race is not over yet.

We are promised this reward for those who remain faithful till the end and for some, even to the death as in martyrdom.

You present the following scripture : 1Th 5:5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness.

Yes./ This describes CHRIST in us. HE is the child of GOD of light of the day. WE are the creations of Christ being made into His image and conformed into children to be welcomed into the Kingdom of God. It is the One true Son of God who dwells in us and HE alone has this title and merit which is HIS inheritance that He shares with us His brethren who HE is not afraid to call His friends.

Peace to you

Arcturus

rocky · « **Reply #83 on:** May 27, 2007, 01:29:55 PM »

Artc writes: YES This is the hope and the promise not the fulfilment in to-days times for the Kingdom of God is within not without yet.

I think this is where we differ, I dont' see the kingdom as being outward at some point. I think the kingdom is not physical, but spiritual (and always will be) imo.

I appreciate your replies Artcurus, but I need to back off, as they tend to make me want to debate, rather than discuss; and that is not my intention at all.

I think these verses are interesting.

Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Th 5:5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Deborah-Leigh · « **Reply #84 on:** May 27, 2007, 01:42:35 PM »

Hello Rocky

Your compilation of scriptures still do not prove that God does NOT call people elect BEFORE they are elect.

That would make God very confused wouldn't it...but then some would have us believe that God is not Sovereign, Almighty and knows exactly how many hairs on your head!...or would that just mean spiritually speaking

that God knows your thoughts BEFORE you think them! or that He is the potter and we the clay and that HE KNOWS

what we have yet to find out!

hillsbororiver · « **Reply #85 on:** May 27, 2007, 02:47:31 PM »

I e-mailed Ray this morning after posting my thoughts on the "tares" parable and I should have consulted him first as I was confused as to what I perceived this to be when listening to this last week, here is the clarification/response from him and I am in agreement.

My apologies for this error!

Dear Joe: I hope I did not insinuate that. We (the ELECT) are the WHEAT, not the tares. Besides, we cannot be wheat and tares at the same time "growing up TOGETHER" as this parable suggests.
The wheat and the tares grow up TOGETHER in this world: "I pray not that Thou should take them out of the world, but that Thou should keep them FROM THE EVIL" (John `7:15).

The "EVIL"--"...the TARES are the Children of the wicked one" (Matt. 13:38). We are the "good seed" which are "the CHILDREN OF THE KINGDEOM [the Elect}..." (Matt. 13:38).

We are not "tares," but we do have "chaff," and it it is that CHAFF that is burned out of us, not "tares." I pointed this out in my last Installment on HELL:

Here, being baptized (immersed) in fire [pur] is as important and beneficial as being baptized with God's Holy Spirit.

"Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His [threshing] floor, and gather His wheat [wheat is good] into the garner, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt. 3:12).

Chaff is the bracts enclosing the good, mature wheat, which is removed during threshing-it has no value as food, and so is burned like the wood, hay, and stubble of I Cor. 3:12. The Elect are composed of both the valuable wheat and the worthless chaff, but we are not the tares. Notice that the chaff is "burned up... with unquenchable fire." If this "unquenchable fire" "burns up" the chaff, surely it cannot be eternal. Unquenchable has nothing to do with eternal. Unquenchable fires is Scriptures that are not allowed to be quenched before they are allowed to burn themselves out.

Winnowing Wheat

"He will gather His wheat... but He will burn up the chaff" (Matt. 3:14).

We are the wheat of Jesus' parable, and we have unwanted chaff surrounding our lives. Jesus is not likening some people to wheat and others to chaff. The wheat is not one group and the chaff another, but rather the unwanted chaff belongs to the desired wheat. The wheat is the baby and the chaff is the bath water. We do not throw away the baby with the bath water, but we do throw away the dirty bath water (in this analogy the bath water represents chaff which is burned in fire).

Notice my statemehnt: "we ARE NOT THE TARES," in the middle of the third paragraph.

Hope this clears up your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray

(It did)

Deborah-Leigh · « **Reply #86 on:** May 27, 2007, 02:53:11 PM »

Well that just goes to show that God works all things to good for those who love Him...and that error sure helped me see better.

Thank you for the clarification Joe!

Peace be to you

Arcturus

Evan600 · « **Reply #87 on:** May 27, 2007, 03:44:29 PM »

Hello everyone!

I have been reading through some of these replies, and I can totally understand where Rocky is coming from, as I have pretty much the same issues here. Let me show you my questions, that seem to not have been answered yet. Not by anyone, on this forum, or even elsewhere. This is not for anyone to take offence, and I hope that you don't take it that way.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

This is crystal clear. The tares(which are NOT the elect) are gathered first. Then we have this:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We have here something that seems TOTALLY different. First the dead in Christ are gathered, THEN those that are alive and remain are meeting the Lord in the air. This seems like a contradiction, and I have yet to find understanding about this. All I hear is "back peddling" about this subject. No offence to anyone, but no one has clarified this. Also:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

These last two verses that I quoted are in conflict with the wheat and the tares. The tares being NOT the elect are gathered first.

Then I will ask another question:

I hear a lot about those that are not the Elect will be raised in physical bodies. Where is the Scripture??? I have not seen one yet that says anything like this, only the complete opposite. Again, please don't take offence I pray, to my questions. If you don't know, believe me, I'm right there with ya.

Yet another question:

Revelation 20 has me very confused. It goes like the following order:

1. Those that are in the first resurrection will reign with Christ a 1000 years.

2. After the 1000 years Satan is loosed out of his prison.

3. Satan is then loosed to decieve the nations, and then cast into the Lake, and this is after the 1000 years.

4. After the 1000 years is the Great White Throne judgment in which the dead are judged.

What?

Okay, what I hear time and time again is that the Elect are the ones that are going to judge everyone that is not the Elect for a 1000 years, and that they are the Lake of fire. Where are the Scriptures for this doctrine? The only thing that I can see is that the rest of the dead are not raised until AFTER the 1000 years.

There are far too many things going on here that do NOT line up with that as far as I'm seeing, and what everyone has said about this. I could really use some insight on these questions. Bits and pieces make sense, but as far as the whole, it does not.

with love,

Jason

Deborah-Leigh · « **Reply #88 on:** May 27, 2007, 04:25:14 PM »

Hello Jason

First off, if God did not say it then it is Heresy.

Revelations 20 : 5 is NOT in the oldest manuscripts. Why keep considering it as if it is Gods word? It is NOT Gods word!

Anyway, all of the dead will not live again in the full sense and in the perfect sense until they are perfected in either the resurrection unto judgement or life in Christ. What is so difficult?

In Rom 11:17 Paul tells of the Abrahamic covenant as a root out of which fleshly Israel grew naturally and which the Gentiles were grafted in after the natural branches were cut off. They were cut off because of disbelief and rejection of the truth and the Messiah who came to them and they knew Him not. So there you have the two types. The earthly, human and the heavenly spiritual that constitutes two phases of the kingdom.

The scriptures tell us that in order of development it was first the natural, earthly and then afterward the heavenly as in first from corruption or Adam and then conformed into Christ the second Adam. During the time of Abraham, the promise to him was earthly: it related to the land and this promise has not yet been fulfilled and will not be fulfilled until the still higher heavenly promises concerning Christ are fulfilled that they without us should not be made perfect. Heb 11:13,39,40.

Also consider that they shall inherit the earth. Jesus said it. Theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said that too. Is this not the two phases? Well I believe it is.

Peace to you
Arcturus

rocky · « **Reply #89 on:** May 27, 2007, 04:47:22 PM »

Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

earth:

gē
ghay
Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): - country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.

maybe this is a stretch, but since Jesus was speaking spiritual truths, could it be that the earth, "land", is the promised land.

earthly Promised land a similute to spiritual promised land, the New Jersualem, entered by faith.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.

Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Deborah-Leigh · « **Reply #90 on:** May 27, 2007, 04:55:40 PM »

Amen Rocky!

The Scriptures of full of this allegory. The called and the chosen. The lost and found. The goats and the sheep. The left and the right! Those who receive a reward and those who receive lashings.

It will all be Spiritual in the end of the flesh and carnal mind and if my posts are a bit too hot to handle at times please forgive me!

Peace be to you

Arcturus

Evan600 · « **Reply #91 on:** May 27, 2007, 05:20:51 PM »

Quote from: Arcturus on May 27, 2007, 04:25:14 PM

Hello Jason

First off, if God did not say it then it is Heresy.

Revelations 20 : 5 is NOT in the oldest manuscripts. Why keep considering it as if it is Gods word? It is NOT Gods word!

Anyway, all of the dead will not live again in the full sense and in the perfect sense until they are perfected in either the resurrection unto judgement or life in Christ. What is so difficult?

In Rom 11:17 Paul tells of the Abrahamic covenant as a root out of which fleshly Israel grew naturally and which the Gentiles were grafted in after the natural branches were cut off. They were cut off because of disbelief and rejection of the truth and the Messiah who came to them and they knew Him not. So there you have the two types. The earthly, human and the heavenly spiritual that constitutes two phases of the kingdom.

The scriptures tell us that in order of development it was first the natural, earthly and then afterward the heavenly as in first from corruption or Adam and then conformed into Christ the second Adam. During the time of Abraham, the promise to him was earthly: it related to the land and this promise has not yet been fulfilled and will not be fulfilled until the still higher heavenly promises concerning Christ are fulfilled that they without us should not be made perfect. Heb 11:13,39,40.

Also consider that they shall inherit the earth. Jesus said it. Theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus said that too. Is this not the two phases? Well I believe it is.

Peace to you
Arcturus

Okay,

In Romans 11:17, talking about the branches, what does this have anything to do with a so-called physical resurrection? That is definetly not a verse that is in support of that doctrine, as it is not even referring to the resurrection.

Now, let's look at Revelation:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 ~~But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.~~ This is the first resurrection.

We omit that part of the verse. Then:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Still expounding from vs. 4. Then:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever

After the 1000 years, the devil is thrown into the lake. Then:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne [From Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired] , and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Mind you, we are ommiting a big section in verse 5, and as we move down in order of the chapter, it's no wonder why that was in there, even if it wasn't part of the manuscript. The dead aren't judged in the great white throne until AFTER the 1000 years. This is just the order of the chapter.

What makes this difficult is the order of the chapter.

When you said:

Quote

Anyway, all of the dead will not live again in the full sense and in the perfect sense until they are perfected in either the resurrection unto judgement or life in Christ.

This kind of makes sense to me. Does this mean that they are raised in a spiritual(not physical) body, and then after the 1000 years, they are then placed before the great white throne? In other words:

There is the 1000 year judgment which is done by the Elect, and then there is the great white throne judgement in which God saves them?

peace to you

Evan600 · « **Reply #92 on:** May 27, 2007, 05:26:24 PM »

To add one more thing. If we do omit that part of vs. 5, we are just missing the fact that they are not raised until after the thousand years. Meaning that they were raised before the 1000 years were up, and were not at the GWT until after the 1000 years. They are still judged, just not raised, because they were already raised.

Deborah-Leigh · « **Reply #93 on:** May 27, 2007, 05:51:15 PM »

Hello Jason

I do not know why you have, it appears to me, to have trouble with thinking that the dead can not be raised up to their flesh again. Jesus raised up Lazarus and others who had died and THEY went on and continued in their life times and fulfilled their lives in the flesh. So don't you think it could happen that the wicked are going to be raised up again in the flesh, their corruptable flesh and corruptable carnal minds to be tempted AGAIN and then finally perfected when at last God will be all in all?

For me it is clear. The dead IN CHRIST will be raised to Spiritual bodies, perfected and heirs of the promises of Christ. The dead in SINS will be raised to sinful bodies and perfected through the LOF.

Anyway, I commend your effort to find out the truth.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

Evan600 · « **Reply #94 on:** May 27, 2007, 06:05:21 PM »

Quote from: Arcturus on May 27, 2007, 05:51:15 PM

Hello Jason

I do not know why you have, it appears to me, to have trouble with thinking that the dead can not be raised up to their flesh again. Jesus raised up Lazarus and others who had died and THEY went on and continued in their life times and fulfilled their lives in the flesh. So don't you think it could happen that the wicked are going to be raised up again in the flesh, their corruptable flesh and corruptable carnal minds to be tempted AGAIN and then finally perfected when at last God will be all in all?

For me it is clear. The dead IN CHRIST will be raised to Spiritual bodies, perfected and heirs of the promises of Christ. The dead in SINS will be raised to sinful bodies and perfected through the LOF.

Anyway, I commend your effort to find out the truth.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

I see where you're coming from. The reason that I have trouble with the dead being raised physical is because there is no Scripture that I can find to support it. This is what I see:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

moving on:

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up[all of the dead]? and with what body do they come?

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead[the resurrection of ALL the dead; "as in Adam ALL die"]. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

I believe that the second death occurs after this resurrection for those that are not the elect. The second death occuring after they are raised in incorruption. I see nothing at all in the Scripture that says anything contrary.

In Christ,

Jason

rocky · « **Reply #95 on:** May 27, 2007, 06:06:59 PM »

Quote from: Arcturus on May 27, 2007, 05:51:15 PM

Hello Jason

I do not know why you have, it appears to me, to have trouble with thinking that the dead can not be raised up to their flesh again. Jesus raised up Lazarus and others who had died and THEY went on and continued in their life times and fulfilled their lives in the flesh. So don't you think it could happen that the wicked are going to be raised up again in the flesh, their corruptable flesh and corruptable carnal minds to be tempted AGAIN and then finally perfected when at last God will be all in all?

For me it is clear. The dead IN CHRIST will be raised to Spiritual bodies, perfected and heirs of the promises of Christ. The dead in SINS will be raised to sinful bodies and perfected through the LOF.

Anyway, I commend your effort to find out the truth.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

For me, i struggle with the dead raised again into flesh bodies; because then they would have to die again (in the flesh), and be resurrected again (third resurrection) to become a spiritual body.

Otherwise, we in the flesh wouldn't have to die physically to be raised spiritual.

Unless, resurrection has nothing to do with death of the physical body, and it is all spiritual.

Deborah-Leigh · « **Reply #96 on:** May 27, 2007, 06:38:17 PM »

Hello Jason

You say : I believe that the second death occurs after this resurrection for those that are not the elect. The second death occurring after they are raised in incorruption. I see nothing at all in the Scripture that says anything contrary.

We are in like mind on that point. To add Jesus cautions us to Luke 21 : 36 ...pray that you may have the full strength and ability and be accounted worthy to escape all these things taken together that will take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man.

Christ is talking here about what is going to happen in the days of vengeance until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. He says there will be great fear and dread of the things that are coming on the world and THEN they will see the Son of Man coming. Christ says that these things will BEGIN to occur and when they do we should LOOK UP. For me that means look above the worldly cares and fears in the world and lay our burdens down.

Rocky you say that : For me, i struggle with the dead raised again into flesh bodies; because then they would have to die again (in the flesh), and be resurrected again

Okay, so where did you get that conclusion? The scriptures say those who are alive at the return of Christ will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. So? Don't you think that is what can happen for them who are to be raised and changed in the LOF? Perhaps not so much in a twinkling of an eye though

1 Cor 15 : 22 For just as because of their union of nature in Adam all people ALL PEOPLE....DIE...so also by virtue of their union of nature shall all in Christ be made alive. 23 BUT EACH in his own rank and turn.
....52 In a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, at the sound of the last trumpet call, For a trumpet will sound, and the dead in Christ will be raised imperishable...IMPERISHABLE...free and immune from decay and we shall be CHANGED....TRANSFORMED...

Peace be to you

Arcturus

Evan600 · « **Reply #97 on:** May 27, 2007, 06:49:51 PM »

Quote from: rocky on May 27, 2007, 06:06:59 PM

Quote from: Arcturus on May 27, 2007, 05:51:15 PM
Hello Jason

I do not know why you have, it appears to me, to have trouble with thinking that the dead can not be raised up to their flesh again. Jesus raised up Lazarus and others who had died and THEY went on and continued in their life times and fulfilled their lives in the flesh. So don't you think it could happen that the wicked are going to be raised up again in the flesh, their corruptable flesh and corruptable carnal minds to be tempted AGAIN and then finally perfected when at last God will be all in all?

For me it is clear. The dead IN CHRIST will be raised to Spiritual bodies, perfected and heirs of the promises of Christ. The dead in SINS will be raised to sinful bodies and perfected through the LOF.

Anyway, I commend your effort to find out the truth.

Peace be to you

Arcturus

For me, i struggle with the dead raised again into flesh bodies; because then they would have to die again (in the flesh), and be resurrected again (third resurrection) to become a spiritual body.

Otherwise, we in the flesh wouldn't have to die physically to be raised spiritual.

Unless, resurrection has nothing to do with death of the physical body, and it is all spiritual.

Me too

I see NOTHING in the Scripture that says anything about a resurrection of physical bodies. I only hear these things from people. It would be another "transformation." It would be:

1. Elect risen incorruptible. (scriptural)

2. Non elect raised corruptible(physical). (unscriptural)

3. After the non elect are raised 'corruptible,' they would die again. (first part unscriptural, second scriptural)

4. By now we are way off.

God bless

Kat · « **Reply #98 on:** May 27, 2007, 07:09:28 PM »

In chapter 15 of Cor. who is Paul speaking to?

1Co 15:1 And, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and in which you stand;

So what is being said in this chapter is applied to the brothers/elect only. That is who he is explaining things to.
You gave those verses in the middle of that chapter, but there he is still talking to the brothers.
And he ends that chapter speaking to the brothers, he is telling them about their resurrection, the first resurrection. That word brothers can not be discounted.

1Co 15:50 And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
v. 51 Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
v. 52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
v. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
v. 57 But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
v. 58 So that, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not without fruit in the Lord.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Deborah-Leigh · « **Reply #99 on:** May 27, 2007, 07:15:35 PM »

Okay Jason

So you agree that they, the non-elect die again, the second death, but not that they are raised corruptable. How do you figure that? You say the non-elect are not raised "corruptible"...YES you said it not me! Quote : "After the non elect are raised 'corruptible'....first part unscriptural....." unquote...So do you think the non-elect have no corruption that has to die? ...so what is going to die in the second scriptural death according to you: What is it that has to die and has to be defeated under the rule of Christ if not corruption and corruptible flesh? What then? Do you perhaps believe that the person is the flesh body. We are not our bodies but that which are in our bodies. The body of flesh carnality of mind has to die. It is the chaff as has been clarified by Joe via Ray Smith.

I believe the tares will perish. Then God will remake them through the LOF. They will perish in the second death and be remade through the correction process of rebirth. The elect will help Christ administer this Government to this end don't the scriptures say? ALL will be saved...but not in the same time or the same way!

You say : 3. After the non elect are raised 'corruptible,' they would die again. (first part unscriptural, second scriptural)

Are you confusing the issues here to try to get to something that doesn't exist? Either we believe God or we don't. He says what is going to happen and HE is not way off but false teaching can certainly be way out!

That is all I am going to say on this matter for this time being.

Peace to you

Arcturus

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