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Author Topic: Thanks, Testimony, long  (Read 5568 times)

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Craig

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Thanks, Testimony, long
« on: April 30, 2007, 07:01:58 PM »

ear Ray,

I've been meaning to write to you for approximately 12 months now. Two of the reasons I haven't written so far are because:

(1)  at first, I was terrified of making the mistake of contacting you with words of encouragement before I was confident that your anti-Hell teaching was sound.

(2)   even now, I just don't know where to begin AND I certainly don't know where to end telling you of my miraculous voyage of learning and discovery guided by the Holy Spirit of God and Our Lord Jesus Christ! (of which you have become part).

It would be a very long story!

I should point out also that I have not yet read and verified every single item on your site. The parts I have verified are sound!

I sent this email to you some days ago but have just noticed that I left out the period in your email address between ‘L’  and ‘RaySmiith’. I wonder who got that mail? They must think it very odd!!

I am REALLY going to be as brief as I can for the moment and maybe I can one day sit down and share with you more detail of the extraordinary guidance that the Living God has given me in the last few years.

Like I say, as briefly as I can bear here is the deal:

I was an extreme Hell-fire believer and both taught and desperately warned others of it.

Just two much-shortened examples to give you some evidence that I REALLY BELIEVED IN ETERNAL HELL AND I WAS NEVER, EVER SHY OR AFRAID OF SPEAKING STRONGLY OF IT:

(1)  I was vehemently opposed to Jehovah's Witnesses in particular because, as far as I was concerned, their teaching was the meanest, most evil deception possible.

Why?

BECAUSE they denied the truth of Hell and taught their deception to others who would be only too glad to believe that there was no such place. Thus, by believing that outrageous lie, they would be sure of ending up there.

Ray, believe me, I was truly disgusted with them for their denial of Hell (and other things).

If I passed by a couple of them in the street, I would harshly ask them questions such as  'are you still leading people to Hell?' or 'how many have you lead to Hell this week?'

To me, the denial of the reality of Hell was one of the most despicable lies imaginable!

A couple of them came to my door one day and asked me why I thought there was so much evil in the world. I repled something like 'Well I suppose it might have something to do with Satan'. Their faces lit up in smiles of delight. I invited them in. They thought they had struck gold!

Well, to cut a long story short, after a couple of hours those two people couldn't get out of my house quickly enough. They said they had to go off and meet their colleagues. I protested that surely it is more important to be sure that I had the truth than to go off and meet their colleagues. But they were worn down and just wanted to get away.

I offered them some literature from which they drew back in disgust as if I was offering them a putrefying, dead rat. I asked them to go and then return with their colleagues. But once they got out of the door, I never saw or heard from them ever again.

Now, Jehovah's Witnesses know their way around THEIR Bible and are very well practised at both their 'sales' pitch and their 'sales' technique (I am an ex, professional direct salesman). I met one recently who has been doing door-to-door 'sales'  for the organisation (Watchtower) since 1968!

The reason I make this point is so that you know that I am no naive, ignorant pushover when it comes to scripture knowledge.

Ray, I really took hell seriously!

Truly believing the reality of it, I simply could not stop warning people. If I felt led (which was most of the time) I would get around to warning and pleading with them  -  people I knew and even perfect strangers.

(2)  For some years I was desperately, pleadingly trying to make my Mother see and understand the awful reality of Hell. We always ended up in some unpleasant argument because I was so desperate that she understood and she was so adamant that she was correct in her own philosophy.

"But Mum, it's not your opinion or philosophy that counts, it's what the Word of God says...." I would plead, to no avail.

Well after years of these sort of exchanges, she had had enough and very firmly told me that she never wanted to hear me mention it ever again. I told her that it was simply not possible for me to never mention it again.

Inevitably, my desperation for her to understand that Hell was not some idle threat that would be okay on the day coupled with her vehement and stubborn resistance to what I was saying reached an impasse where we would both just have to shut up.

For years, I had tried every conceivable approach and this time I was through. I told her this:

"Assuming I outlive you, when I attend your funeral and they all stand around saying what a lovely woman you were and how you will surely be in heaven now, I will stand right up and say, NO! My mother will not be in heaven at all....she is now in a place of severe pain and discomfort where she will remain until the day of judgment at which time she will finally be banished to Hell for ever and ever because she continuously rejected the Lord Jesus Christ."

I said that to the Mother I have always loved and cared for because I truly believed it was the truth. She had tears in her eyes. I was desperately hoping that the shocking reality of it might somehow jolt her out of her apparent complacency.

Furthermore, if circumstances had remained the same and she had died, I am sure that I would have done just what I said I would at the funeral!

So you see Ray, I was not some well-meaning but hand-wringing wimp that kept quiet about the hell doctrine so as not to put people off. I was not somebody that was in any way embarrassed about starkly and vividly declaring the coming hell to all those who rejected the Saviour. I was not an uncaring “I’m all right, Jack” who wasn’t motivated to ‘evangelise’  or found 1,001 reasons not to tell somebody. I wasn’t hoping or searching for some way of not believing the unpleasant hell doctrine.

I was a full-on ‘You are in immediate danger of eternal torture’  kinda guy that TOLD THEM IT THE WAY IT IS.

I have often been dismayed at the staggering ignorance and even blindness of most of those in ‘Christendom’. A friend once referred to it as ‘Christendumb’  -  I just had to laugh!

In the past, I have had many a written tussle on (or through) Internet forums with people who present themselves as pastors/leaders/teachers and I have marvelled at their ignorance and blatant dishonesty. So many of their ‘followers’ fail to recognise error partly because they are so in awe of the wisdom and knowledge of their own favourite ‘Man of God’.

No matter how much they may insist to the contrary, for them it is their own favourite ‘Man of God’  that holds authority over them – not scripture.

Anyway, it was because these people who claimed, in one way or another, to represent God were passing on or teaching others error that I would just have to get into these tussles. I had so often resolved to keep quiet and refrain but then I would see them waxing worse-and-worse until I would just have to object.

Time-and-time again, they had no honest alternative but to hold their hands up and admit their error/s. But they never (not even once) did.  His was all carried out word-for-word before numerous witnesses!

Yet they never once even answered to the questions put to them. They would change the subject or the emphasis and use other diversion techniques. In fact, they would blatantly lie, cheat, twist, name-call, incite others to attack me and then shun me  -  they did anything at all but admit to the truth.

I hear you say ‘enough already about the background! ’

Patience……..I’m nearly to the point.

I used to say to them that they cannot simply declare that I am wrong, they have to show me FROM THE WORD OF GOD that I am wrong and explain how. They cannot simply ignore my clear and specific questions, they have to answer to them very specifically  -  from the Word of God. I used to explain to them that it wasn’t me that was saying this, it wasn’t me that declared this, IT IS THE WORD OF GOD. I used to be them to be VERY specific.

At last! Here is where you come in!!

I saw one of your little ads one day (about there being no hell) which caught my eye. I would NEVER go to these sort of things because, as far as I was concerned, they were heretical and simply reading anything like that literally made me feel quite sick in the stomach.

Anyway, this particular day I thought “Let’s see what sick nonsense is on this site”.

I entered the site with such trepidation you have no idea! I was poised to click off the moment I saw anything too sick. I was nervous, nervous, nervous in my stomach. I glimpsed briefly over the index of contents. My anxiety was beginning to get the better of me. I was just about to exit when, to my great surprise, I saw that you had seen through the tithing lie. Wow! That really was a surprise!! The tithing lie is one of ‘their’ untouchables!

I read a couple of the email exchanges. Your punchy, no-nonsense style of handling objections (and nonsense) was very similar to my own (at the time!). Your nose-to-nose challenge was admirable and honest. I have often been ‘told off’ for being too in-your-face in my writing. I was beginning to feel more comfortable. I read more.

I started to scan through some of the things you had written about hell. I automatically felt that I should withdraw. This is bad….it’s wrong…….it’s……..

But then I suddenly became aware that you hadn’t said anything that I could actually argue with. If what you were saying about the translations of ‘everlasting’ and ‘Hell’ etc were true, then you would have a reasonable case to be answered.

If I applied my own habitual insistence to others (that they show me from the Word of God precisely where and how I am wrong) to myself, then I would have to take time to consider how I would reply and be extra careful to check that I was accurate and correct.

But this was something I had never come across before. In fact, I was most surprised that I had come this far at all. Usually, if somebody had a ‘new angle’  (ie  that was different to the – for the most part - Orthodox angle that I had accepted) I would be immediately highly suspicious and cynical.

Especially if it depended on changing the translation of a word!!  I would judge that because the verse doesn’t say what they want it to say, they were trying to force it to do so by whatever means necessary.

But it was different in this case because, apart from the unverified bit about the word translations, things made much more sense if Universal Salvation through Jesus Christ was true. Much, much more sense.

Ray, I really do want to understand the deep things of God and it bothers me if I don’t. It is not enough for me to simply quietly accept that much of the Word of God is a mystery. Why would God go to such trouble to enlighten us if he wants things to be shrouded in mystery?

And as for the ridiculous, nebulous, illogical explanations that most ‘Christians’ have to offer, I have always thought that they haven’t a clue what they are talking about! That they simply repeat some mystical-sounding, clichéd garbage that they have heard or read somewhere or other.

That is why I much prefer to have searching discussions in writing. There is much less room for vague or meaningless statements. Written sentences can be referred back to word-for-word and cannot be denied or adapted later on.

Let me give you an example of an area that becomes exponentially clearer when one better understand God’s real plan for salvation:

Over the years, I have thought and thought and thought about the conflict between Eternal Security and Probationism. I’ve searched hard for the answer. One period I would be certain that it was a case of Eternal Security and the another period I would be convinced that Probationism was the thing.

But whichever position I held at any particular time, I was still greatly troubled inside by the scriptures which seemed so clear favouring the alternative view. I would read and read those scriptures and I would see undeniable, absolutely compelling arguments both ways.

I often reasoned to myself that the Scriptures do not lie and so it looks as if the two positions must be true  -  yet, they can’t be  because (with the Hell doctrine) they are mutually exclusive.

But God’s TRUE plan of salvation with the eons and the true purpose of the Lake of Fire etc allows for all those scriptures!

Well Ray, I was very careful with what I read. I searched and studied other sources. I invested money into materials. It is very hard to explain what I went through. If this was true, it would be the most incredible news ever!!  The implications were absolutely enormous and utterly all-encompassing.

It was very, very hard not to keep automatically thinking in my old ways!! I studied hungrily for three months and didn’t mention it to a single person. I was far too fearful of it being wrong! I checked and checked. I read and read. I thought and thought.

I cannot say that I first changed when a day came along that I said to myself “Right, that’s enough….I believe that Jesus Christ IS the Saviour of the whole world”.

But I can definitely say that a monumental AND VERY SCARY DAY came along when I first KNEW,KNEW, KNEW that I could NEVER, EVER teach Hell again!!

I remember one day looking at my book shelves with all those fancy books and thinking ‘They are all for the bin’.

I remember another day thinking of the BIG names of Christendom   -  Spurgeon, Whitfield, Maclaren, Henry.  Come on man, get real! So you think that they were all wrong about Hell and that you…….a nobody…….are right?  And then I thought……yes, I don’t know why but they were all wrong about Hell and, thanks to God alone, I am right!

Well, that was just about twelve months ago now and after continued and dedicated individual study, I am astonished that I ever believed the doctrine of Hell.

I threw some more of those big, fancy, hard-backed, big-name, expensive books into the rubbish again just a couple of days ago. Before doing so, I read one or two articles in them about Heaven and Hell and death and such like.

I can honestly say that I was surprised at the childishness of those articles by men I had at one time held in some respect. Is that called ‘maturiing’?

I can confess that in the past, I have definitely read or heard some explanation that I liked the sound of (for whatever reason) and have simply passed it on to others as if it was solid fact. Of course, that is precisely how error becomes tradition and people accept it unquestioningly holding anything contrary as heresy.

So Ray, thanks for being there!

I look at your site from time-to-time and just this morning read your new ‘The Christian hell is a Christian hoax’.

It was a real boost to my morale! It even motivated me to finally sit down and write!

It is occasionally very hard being the only one, the so-called heretic….……..but really……what a privilege!! What an honour!!

I wont bother you with the details, but I am still waiting (9 months so far) for a specific, direct and relevant reply that might wrap up a series of written exchanges I had with a local pastor last year. He teaches people two or three times per week.

Like I said……still waiting.

Of course, he’s not the only one.  All I get from anybody in the way of replies is a very specific vagueness!

One man (who claims the name of The Lord) has read many of the things I have written, has discussed them with me and can find no objection to any of it. He finds it all very, very interesting! As far as I know, he is just carrying on with his life as he was before.

How can you discover that the hell doctrine that you have believed to be true all of your Christian life is almost certainly false, find it agreeably interesting and then just carry on as if nothing happened? (Rhetorical question)

Thanks again, Ray.

By the way, I can tell you that when I believed the eternal hell doctrine, I was (subconciously) EXTREMELY angry at all those who just wouldn’t listen and act on the warnings. I supposed that they were just stubborn; or that they hated God so very much that they wanted nothing whatsoever to do with Him; or that they loved their sins and this world so much that they just refused to part from them.

I got to the point where, in my heart, I truly hated them for hating God. Of course, I never thought this ‘out loud’ to myself. But I now recognise that I really did secretly think ‘Okay then, if that’s what you want..….go right ahead. But boy, oh boy, are you going to get what’s coming to you!!” I know it’s disgusting to have thought that but I now know that I really did think it deep inside. It is such a shameful thing to have thought that I  never ever acknowledged it to myself. But I clearly recognised it in myself AFTER I studied what you pointed out and eventually came to agreement with you.

I’ll bet that many who believe the hell doctrine secretly think the same way as I did too!

I can most definitely say that I now have considerable love for all those ‘non-believers’ out there. A love that was most definitely absent before.

To sign off, let me tell you this: I read a book approximately 20 years ago and recently got an overwhelming urge to re-read it. I remember it was an excellent book and I remember the general theme of it but not the details.

It is very unusual for me to want to read something ‘secular’ because I haven’t had the slightest desire to read any book that isn’t about God for several years. As a matter of fact, I consider it a waste of time!

Anyway, I ordered the book and started reading it. Wow! It was so relevant to my life right now in so many ways! But I nearly fell off the chair when I read what one of the characters said in a passing discussion about God:

“You’ve got some title to call yourself a Christian, haven’t you? As for the happiness that passes all understanding, it certainly passes my understanding how you can be happy when you believe that millions of people are being tortured in Hell; and it also passes my understanding why you are not ashamed of yourself for being happy under such circumstances.”

How brilliant is that!

Yours etc,

Paul

PS:     I am an Englishman living on the south coast of Spain.

PPS:  I told you I would keep I short!
 

Dear Paul:

Yes, a bit long, but I read the whole writing. Pretty interesting. I am glad that you now see the truth concerning the Chrisitan hell. I am still working on the "HELL" series. Part D-3 should be posted in a few days.

God be with you,

Ray
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 07:50:03 PM by Kat »
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