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Author Topic: End time prophecy not related to hell  (Read 4764 times)

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Kent

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End time prophecy not related to hell
« on: May 07, 2007, 11:14:55 AM »

If things have already occured, and are not future events like I used to believe, can anyone point me
to what is yet left to happen?


Thank you for any help you can give me.
Kent
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Kat

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2007, 12:32:55 PM »


Hi Kent,

Some 'things' have already happened in the lives of believers.  But I would say most things are yet future.
The elect are begotten now with the earnest of the Holy Spirit only.

2Cor 1:22  And He has sealed us and having given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

But when He appears at the resurrection, then the elect will be raised or changed. 

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be. But we know that when He shall be revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

Then the world will be ruled by Christ and the saints, with a rod of iron, that has not happened yet.

Rev 19:14  And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
v. 15  And out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, so that with it He should strike the nations. And He will shepherd them with a rod of iron. And He treads the winepress of the wine of the anger and of the wrath of Almighty God.

Anyway the elect have yet to be raised and rule with Christ, that's all future.
Hope that helps.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Kent

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2007, 01:37:11 PM »

Thanks  :)

I was thinking more along the lines of what I see as a police state that is forming around us possible being a part of the "time of Jacobs trouble". I remember a rabbi (or rabbis) saying we were in that time now. I should have been more specific in my question.

This is what I, and quite a few others, are preparing for.
 
This is what I am finding a little confusing right now. Since I have yet again learned a few things, that calls into question some other things I currently believe; especially since I dont see the "mark" as being strictly spiritual but as a very effective means to control us financially and to prove our loyalty to the satanic state.

 ???

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hillsbororiver

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2007, 03:01:52 PM »

Hi Kent, There is this bit from LOF Part 7

You can read the entire article here,     http://bible-truths.com/lake7.html

PRETER WHO?

For centuries theologians have written books on such unscriptural prophecy theories as, "Preterism," (all has been fulfilled in the past), and "Futurism, (all is yet to be fulfilled in the future). I get emails all the time asking if I am a Preterist or a Futurist? I tell them, "No, I am a Jesus-ist" (just kidding—I think I coined a new word).

Why, oh why, don’t they just listen to Jesus? Can you not all see from what I presented above, that the book of Revelation is neither "Preterist" nor "Futurist?"

THE BOOK OF REVELATION IS TO ALL CHURCHES, IN ALL GENERATIONS, FOR ALL WHO READ THIS PROPHECY, WHEN JESUS OPENS IT TO THEM, IN THEIR OWN LIFETIME (which comes quickly and is over shortly)!

I ask, "Why?" But, of course, I know the reason:

"He that has an ear, let him hear [SPIRITUALLY] what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Rev. 2:7).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 11).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 17).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 29).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Rev. 3:8).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 13).

"He that has an ear let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches" (Ver. 22).

JESUS OFTEN REPEATED HIS SELF

So why did I repeat the very same sentence SEVEN TIMES? I can’t take credit for that; it wasn’t my idea. Why would JESUS tell us the same thing SEVEN TIMES in just two chapters (I submit to you that they is only ONE chapter—only ‘men’ would see the wisdom in breaking up the seven churches into two chapters).

When Jesus repeats something, it is because it is VERY important. When Jesus wanted to emphasize something, He prefaced His statements by repetition: "Martha, Martha…" "Simon, Simon…" "Verily, verily…"

And when Jesus says something three times, you have got to know that it is something EXTREMELY important:

"And He went a little farther, and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O My Father, if it be possible, let his cup pass from Me, nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou will …

Again the second time

… And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying THE SAME WORDS" (Matt. 26:39, 42, 44).

What might it imply that Jesus has said seven times, "He that has an ear, let him HEAR …" This has got to be MOST important for Him to repeat it to all seven churches. Not only are the individual churches to hear what Jesus points out to them, but everything pointed out to the individual churches to be heard by ALL THE OTHER CHURCHES AS WELL.

"…let him hear what the Spirit says unto the churches [all the churches]."

Doesn’t everyone have ears? Then why can’t they "hear" what Christ has to say to the seven churches? Because I already showed you very clearly in previous installments why people can’t understand Jesus. Why they can’t understand His parables such as Lazarus and the Rich man. Why they don’t believe MANY of the plain statements of God’s Word, such as I Tim. 3:4 and 4:10. It is because you can’t hear the real meaning of God’s words with physical and carnal ears! And many of the leaders are among themost carnal in the church.

THE DEVIL MAKES MAN MINDFUL OF PHYSICAL THINGS

The devil has always been mindful of physical, literal, material things. That’s what Satan "dines" on—

"…DUST [of man] shall you eat all the days of your life" (Gen. 3:14).

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour [Greek: ‘swallow up’]" (I Pet. 5:8).

Yes, the Adversary eats "dust" and we, mankind, ARE "dust" of the ground. Satan does not feast on spiritual food—it would choke him! Satan dines on the carnal [flesh/meat] mind of men. While Jesus was physically starving for forty days, He was feasting on spiritual food from heaven! Satan thought he could trick Jesus into satisfying His need for physical FOOD before He was finished dining on spiritual food with His Father!

"Then was Jesus led up of THE SPIRIT into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when He had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered" […and so was STARVING, The Four Gospels By C.H. Rieu].

And when the tempter came to Him, he said, If you be the Son of God, command that these stones be made BREAD" (Matt. 4:1-3).

Satan should have realized that one doesn’t tempt a Spiritual Giant with a loaf of physical bread.

IT TAKES SPIRITUAL EARS TO HEAR SPIRITUAL WORDS

Listen to Jesus (with your SPIRIT):

"WHY do ye [all of us] NOT UNDERSTAND MY SPEECH? EVEN BECAUSE YE CANNOT HEAR MY WORD. Ye are of your father THE DEVIL … He that is of God HEARS God’s words [words of SPIRIT, WITH HIS SPIRIT]: ye therefore hear them not, BECAUSE YE ARE NOT OF GOD" (John 8:43-44 & 47).

"But the natural [soulish] man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY discerned" (I Cor. 2:14).

Practically the whole Church believes and teaches that Jesus spoke literal little stories about physical people, places, and things, so that everyone could understand Him. One cannot hear words of spirit with physical ears.

All they heard were the physical vibrations in the air against their physical eardrums. Their heart and mind and spirit didn’t hear a thing! We just read the Scriptures above, where the greatest theologians and thinkers in the law could not "hear" and understand Jesus. Little has changed in two thousand years!

As long as people think what Jesus taught was physical, and material, and literal, then they will never understand. Were the parables given to enhance understanding? I speak as fool (read Matt. 13). Were the teachings of Jesus, temporary, physical, literal? Let Him answer:

"…the words that I speak unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are LIFE" (John 6:63)!

Parables have a SPIRITUAL meaning, and all of Christ’s teachings are SPIRITUAL. And that is because His very "words" ARE SPIRIT! Remember that Revelation is the "revelation OF Jesus Christ," it is HIS testimony. The "words" of His testimony are therefore, also, "SPIRIT."

So once again: "He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says…" What "who" says? Just "who" is doing the speaking here in Revelation? "…hear what THE SPIRIT says…" It is "the SPIRIT" speaking to the churches, and the words being spoken are those of Jesus, which "words are SPIRIT," and "the LORD [Jesus Christ] is that SPIRIT…" (II Cor. 3:17).

BEHOLD I COME QUICKLY

But just how is it that Jesus Christ "comes quickly?" Ah, now we are getting into the marvelous revelation of this grand book. The key is found in the very first use of this word "quickly."

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto THEE quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent" (Rev. 2:4-5).

Does Jesus come "quickly" to rule for a thousand years, or to set up the white throne judgment? Notice in what way Jesus comes "quickly."

Here is the first verse in which Jesus says He will come "quickly":

"…repent and do the first works or else I will come unto THEE quickly…" (Rev. 2:5).

Who is this, "thee?" It is the CHURCH! But more specifically it is the members that make up the Church.

It is, of course, the members of the church that have "left their first love." Here is absolute proof that the churches of Revelation personify the whole Church of God down through the centuries until the great white throne judgment.

Whatever is found in the seven (the complete) churches of Revelation is also found in the Churches from the time of John’s vision until the judgment of the world. This vision shows not only the conditions in God’s Church at the time of John’s vision, but of the condition of the Church right down till the judgment of the world.

Revelation is "The Revelation OF Jesus Christ." It is not just a revelation from Jesus Christ. It is a Revelation OF Jesus Christ HIMSELF! If we can only believe what Jesus says of Himself:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

Therefore the book of Revelation also contains what WAS, IS, AND IS TO COME!

Read and understand:

"Blessed is he that READS and they that HEAR the words of this PROPHECY, and KEEP those things which are written therein: for the time IS AT HAND."

John to the seven churches which are in Asia

"…Write the things which you HAVE SEEN [past], and the things WHICH ARE [present], and the things which SHALL BE HEREAFTER [future]" (Rev. 1:2-3 & 19).

There it is. Can you see it? The "time is at hand." For what? For, "he that reads and they that hear the words of this prophecy…" When would that be? Whenever the "he that reads and they that hear" are alive and reading this prophecy.

Here then is how Jesus comes quickly to "THEE." People have lived, read this prophecy in Revelation, and then at some time thereafter, died. They have lived, read, and died. Millions upon millions have already, lived, read this prophecy, and later died. When does Jesus Christ come to the readers of this prophecy? When they are alive. How long is that?

"For what is your LIFE? It is even a VAPOUR, that appears for a little time, and then VANISHES AWAY" (James 4:14).

If Jesus is to "come to thee," dear reader, He must come "quickly," because I don’t care how many years you may live; your life will be over "SHORTLY!"

 
 
 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 07:39:11 PM by hillsbororiver »
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Kat

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2007, 03:25:19 PM »

Hi Kent,

The scripture that you were referring to;

Jer 30:7  Alas! For that day is great, so that none is like it; it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

As Joe's post points out, for the elect their judgment(Jacob's trouble) is now and they shall be saved at the resurrection.
But I believe this scripture has a much broader sense, in referring to 'the day of the Lord,' because it seems to me like 'that day' is speaking of 'the day of the Lord,' when He returns in power and glory.  

Act 17:31  because He has appointed a day in which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man whom He appointed, having given proof to all by raising Him from the dead.

It is the time when Christ will judge the world, and Jacob too must be judged, that sounds like 'Jacob's trouble.'  "...but he shall be saved out of it."  so Jacob will be saved, as will all humanity.
I think it is the end of this chapter that explains what is happening.
 
Jer 30:23  Behold, the tempest of Jehovah's wrath goes forth, a sweeping tempest; it shall whirl on the head of the wicked.
v. 24  The fierce anger of Jehovah shall not return until He has done it, and until He has fulfilled the purposes of His heart. In the latter days you shall understand it.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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mrsnacks

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2007, 03:43:53 PM »

For me Matthew 24 I do take the preterism side after being a futurist for many years. I am not a full preterist. I would say an orthodox preterist understanding that the Great Trib happened in 70 A.D. when Titus came and desecrated and destroyed the temple. Read Josephus recording the events in 70 A.D.

Jesus told to the Disciples about things that were going to happen in that generation. And they did. But I haven't done an in depth study in prophecy even though I have studied under Hal Lindsey and Gary DeMar. But Lindsey has changed his tune so many times and his ways of interpreting scripture as many futurists today is a joke. I didn't see it then. Black helicopters are the locusts in Rev and the the moon turning red and not giving light is according to Lindsey cause by pollution or nuclear basts . This is  clearly Apocalyptic language you can see it in the OT. This language is used ( stars falling from Heaven and etc ) is judgment from God.

I do have a question. Ray said that the churches in Rev were at that time being addressed. But he also said these same churches exists today and the scriptures are addressing those. My question is what makes him think so . Saying it doesn't make it so. I do believe scriptures can be applied to the world's condition today.
I am being honets here. I have following Ray's teaching for over 5 -6 months now. And I believe God has led me to this site. But I am very careful and skeptical because I have been in error thinking certain teachings were from God. So my life has been a journey of unlearning 99.99 % of what I have been taught.

When I first heard about UR I believed it . It made sense. I was convinced in my spirit. God is love. Love never fails. And God is the Savior of all mankind the church will say yet act like He isn't. And it makes sense to me if Jesus came to save all mankind and the majority of billions end up in this eternal hell then Jesus failed. Seems simple and plain to see. And Jesus isn't a failure. God is all powerful . How can God's mercy endure forever if there exist this eternal hell. Contradiction big time.

So back to my point. I was in a Bible study and the subject was the end times. And all were futurists in the class except my wife and I . And the crazy interpretations everyone comes up with is nuts. Speculations. They would say stars will be falling to the earth literal. I responded that if a star fell to the earth , the earth would end up being a vapor. Does anyone know how big a star is ? So then they say well maybe it isn't a star but a meteor or a flying saucer.


And Kat you said " Then the world will be ruled by Christ and the saints, with a rod of iron, that has not happened yet." So there is a time when Christ will rule over the earth with a rod of iron ? I thought that Christ's Kingdom is spiritual ? The Knigdom of God is within you .Now here you go to  physical. So is it like a police state where He acts as dictator ? This part is confusing. Also the 1000 years part. What is the purpose ? IS it a literal 1000 years ? One theologian said when someone said in his class that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills , " who owns hill number 1001 ? 

I have learned that there is so much to learn. Once you think you have sort of arrived at knowing something - God shows me that I have just barely scratched the surface.






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Laren

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2007, 04:14:45 PM »

I've been struggling with the "is, was and will be" of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. 

Similar to the thinking of the "churches" which Ray refers to as every church since that time,

the "is, was and will be" of Christ is in every age too, not just to a group of people at a certain time in the past.  Well if this is true, how can there ever be an end to the Revelation of Jesus Christ? How will he finally defeat all his enemies, and turn the kingdom over to the father?  As there can never be a consumation of the age of the Revelation of Christ, because there always will be another "will be".

The Revelation of Christ is the process of "death to life" through baptism into Christ, him revealing himself in us. 

So if the revelation of Christ always "will be", there can never be an end to death to life, and death can never be conquered as a whole, but only on an individual basis. 

Yet we all know there has to be a point in time when Jesus returns, and the first resurrection occurs.  At this point, and from there on, there can not be any more first fruits/elect; as they will have been resurrected as we move into the next age. 

But if we believe that the Revelation of Jesus Christ always "will be", then there can never be a consumation of this current age, because each individual can never be the last to make up the body of Christ/first fruits, because there will always be another "will be". 

Does that make any sense?   help would greatly be appreciated. 

thanks. 
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hillsbororiver

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2007, 04:16:56 PM »

Hi mrsnacks,

The following is an e-mail response from Ray that touches on your question, LOF Part 10 goes much deeper into this;


http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html

Dear David:

Thank you for your email and comments about preterism.

I do comment from time to time on this theory, however, I have not ever handled it as a separate paper. I am at least a little familiar with the preterist and futurist approach to prophecy.

David, what if there is a third approach? The Scriptural approach? Would you be ready to consider that? I cover this principle in passing in Part X of my series on "The Lake of Fire."

Let me let the Scriptures shatter BOTH the preterist and futurist theory on prophecy fulfillment.  I'll not attempt to harmonize all of the prophecies of Daniel, Joel, Zachariah, Matt. 24 and the the book of Revelation in one email. I have sixty more emails to answer. Hope you understand.

I think we can all agree that the Book of Revelation covers a larger assortment of prophetic world events than the rest of the prophets put together. The Book of Revelation is "the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST." (It is decidedly NOT the revelation of St. John the Divine).  And just what is "the testimony" of Jesus Christ? 

"...for the testimony of Jesus is THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY" (Rev. 19:10).

Now then, is this prophecy of Revelation futurist or preterist? IT IS NEITHER! The answer is so simple, but who will believe it? I will give you the answer (not a full explanation, JUST THE ANSWER -- for now anyway):

"The Revelation OF JESUS CHRIST, which God gave unto Him, to show unto his servants things which must SHORTLY [or QUICKLY, is this 'preterist'? -- see my Series on the Lake of Fire for an explanation of this statement] come to pass; and He sent and SIGNIFIED [symbolized] it by His angel unto His servant John:  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.  Blessed is HE THAT READS ['futurist'?], and THEY THAT HEAR [those in John's day? Or those during the middle ages? Or those in these latter days?] the words of this prophecy ['futurist'?], and KEEP those things which are written therein; FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND ['preterist'? I cover this phrase in my Lake of Fire series]."

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto YOU [just the seven literal, physical, churches in Asia during the first century? Remember that this 'testimony' of Jesus is SPIRITUAL, Rev. 19:10. "Hear what the SPIRIT says unto the churches, 2:7, 11, 17, etc.], and peace, from Him WHICH IS, and WHICH WAS, and WHICH  IS  TO COME..."!!! (Rev. 1:1-4).

There is your SCRIPTURAL ANSWER, David. Everything in the Book of Revelation (which is the testimony--the prophecy of Jesus Christ), leading up to the consummation of all things, differs not from Jesus Christ Himself which, "IS, WAS, AND WILL BE." See, Rev. 1:4,8; 11:17; 16:5, etc. Preterists deny the FUTURE: Futurists deny the PAST: BOTH deny THE NOW -- what presently "IS"!

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray
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hillsbororiver

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2007, 04:27:53 PM »

I've been struggling with the "is, was and will be" of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. 

Similar to the thinking of the "churches" which Ray refers to as every church since that time,

the "is, was and will be" of Christ is in every age too, not just to a group of people at a certain time in the past.  Well if this is true, how can there ever be an end to the Revelation of Jesus Christ? How will he finally defeat all his enemies, and turn the kingdom over to the father?  As there can never be a consumation of the age of the Revelation of Christ, because there always will be another "will be".

The Revelation of Christ is the process of "death to life" through baptism into Christ, him revealing himself in us. 

So if the revelation of Christ always "will be", there can never be an end to death to life, and death can never be conquered as a whole, but only on an individual basis. 

Yet we all know there has to be a point in time when Jesus returns, and the first resurrection occurs.  At this point, and from there on, there can not be any more first fruits/elect; as they will have been resurrected as we move into the next age. 

But if we believe that the Revelation of Jesus Christ always "will be", then there can never be a consumation of this current age, because each individual can never be the last to make up the body of Christ/first fruits, because there will always be another "will be". 

Does that make any sense?   help would greatly be appreciated. 

thanks. 

Hi Laren!

Great to see you Brother, it has been a while, how are things with you?

It's ironic you posted your question approximately the same time I was referring mrsnacks to LOF Part 10 which is where you will find your answer,


"I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the END"

Jesus Christ is the BEGINNING and the END; He IS, WAS, and WILL BE. The book of Revelation is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, therefore, the book of Revelation tells us what "IS [or ARE], WAS, and WILL BE." Everything spoken to the churches is, was, and will be. But not everything that "is, and was," "will be" eternally.

Virtually everything in the Bible pertains to the ages [Greek: aions]. All of these ages will come to and end, as will some things that are only used during eonian times or the times contained in the ages.

One of the prime examples of something that is only used during the ages, is JUDGMENT. When judgment brings about righteousness among all mankind, judgment will become a thing of the past, never to be used in the Kingdom of God again. No, something's "will be" NO MORE. Not until later in the book of Revelation are we told of NEW things to come and OLD things that "will be" no more.

I also had confusion over the is, was, will be but when we consider that it is primarily the charactor of Christ and the plan of salvation that does not change, it was set in place before the foundation of the earth and will not change until Christ hands the Kingdom to the Father and we are All in All. The is, was, will be is for all generations (especially the elect) in their season until the end of the ages.

Hope this helps a bit.

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe

« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 07:41:01 PM by hillsbororiver »
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Laren

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2007, 04:49:26 PM »

thanks Joe, helpful post. 

I check in time to time, read a lot, but not posting much; still studying away.

I personally don't see the preterist view as denying the now, they just see the now as the fufilled, where new covenant/grace reigns, and God is all in all.  If one studies the preterist view, there is some pretty convincing scriptural reasons they see it that way, but if we look around us, it's pretty hard to imagine this is the New Jerusalem.

Makes an interesting study. 

If anyone interested in reading a great read on preterism/fufilled grace, PM me, it's a long book 968 pages. 

Laren



 

 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 04:53:43 PM by Laren »
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hillsbororiver

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2007, 05:43:27 PM »

It is good to see you again Laren,

I must say though if this is the New Jerusalem I think I would be a willing candidate for annihilation, if this present world  is what the Paul meant by;

1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

My imagination can do better than this.  ;)

His Peace to you,

Joe
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 05:53:49 PM by hillsbororiver »
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mrsnacks

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2007, 05:55:44 PM »

I wanted to make it clear that there is an orthodox preterist position. I am not at all a full preterist. I was surprised in all my years in church that I wasn't told about the events in 70 A.D. and the writings of Josephus.In my classes with Lindsey he never mentioned 70 A.D.
 
That everything Jesus was talking to the disciples about was all future in the 20th century was Lindsey's position . It just didn't make sense to me inside of me. He did say this generation shall not pass....." Also the women weeping before Him - He turned to them and said don't weep for me , but weep for yourselves and your children for what they will have to face. Also some of you standing here will be alive to see these things happening. It was pretty clear He was talking about events that would happen soon. That is the extent of my position on eschatology.

Good points raised by Laren.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2007, 06:16:39 PM »

I can't see it at all,

There are no more tears, or death, my dead parents and sister and brother and all the dead have been raised? We move about like the wind, we have spiritual bodies, there is no more sorrow, all have been brought to Christ, every mouth has confessed Jesus is Lord and Saviour and He already has given the Kingdom to the Father?

WOW! Where have I been?

Joe

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Kat

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2007, 07:45:13 PM »


Hi mrsnacks,

Here is an email from Ray on Matt 24, concerning 'this generation.'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4095.0.html -------

Dear Robert:
You dogmatically state that Jesus certainly meant: "THIS generation," and not "THAT generation," proving that all the things He mentioned or prophesied HAD to happen in His day and generation or "Was Jesus WRONG?"
 
Jesus gave prophesies in this chapter that absolutely did not occur in the first century AD regardless of all the unscriptural nonsense the Preterists teach. Did, for example, verse 31 of this 24th chapter of Matthew occur in the first century AD:  "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other?"
 
No, no it didn't occur even as yet (2000 years later). But when it does occur, then "THIS" generation (the ONE which "shall see ALL THESE THINGS") will not pass until all things in this prophecy are completed.
 
Next consider your "this or that" argument. The word "This" in verse 34 is translated from the following Greek:
 

G3778

οὗτος, οὗτοι, αὕτη, αὕται

houtos houtoi hautē hautai

hoo'-tos, hoo'-toy, how'-tay, how'-tahee

And here is what Dr. Strong says it means: "...this or THAT..."  !  As in "this or THAT generation."

God be with you,

Ray
-------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Laren

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2007, 09:56:52 PM »


Jesus gave prophesies in this chapter that absolutely did not occur in the first century AD regardless of all the unscriptural nonsense the Preterists teach.

Did, for example, verse 31 of this 24th chapter of Matthew occur in the first century AD:  "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other?"
 
No, no it didn't occur even as yet (2000 years later).
 
Ray
-------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



A preterist would disagree on this statement, but it's just in how one looks at it.  To look at preterism as a valid doctrine, you have to spiritualize these statements.  But as i stated before, there is plenty of info out there if people are interested in learning more. 

Here's another one that people have a hard time with. 

Prophecy:

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world (Greek oikumene) for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come” (Matthew 24:14)


Most would say, that the gospel hasn't been preached to all the world, so the end could not have come yet. 


Yet, Paul says this:

“But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
‘Their sound has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world (Greek oikumene)”

 

“And the gospel must first be published among all nations (Greek ethnos)” (Mark 13:10)

 
“...My gospel... has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations (Greek ethnos)...” (Romans 16:25-26)


“And He said to them, ‘Go into all the world (Greek kosmos) and preach the gospel to every creature” (Mark 16:15) “.


..of the gospel, which has come to you, as it has also in all the world (Greek kosmos), as is bringing forth fruit...,” (Colossians 1:5-6).


And he said unto them ‘Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature (Greek kitisis) “ (Mark 16:15)


“...from the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature (Greek kitisis) under heaven, of which I, Paul became a minister” (Colossians 1:23)

“But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth (Greek ge)”



“But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

‘Their sound has gone out to all the earth (Greek ge), and their words to the ends of the world‘Their sound has gone out to all the earth (Greek ge), and their words to the ends of the world” 


So, if we believe Jesus in Matthew, that when the gospel is preached to all the world, then the end  (Jesus is Alpha and Omega/end) would come, we see that Paul said it happened. 








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hillsbororiver

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2007, 10:56:32 PM »

Hi Laren,

The statement you made in regard to this doctrine is that God is all in all now?


Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No more death, no more sorrow? Like I stated earlier, I don't see this at all. Is this true in your own life? Am I missing out on something or is this a fanciful theory requiring scriptural somersaults that makes for an interesting debate?

His Peace to you,

Joe
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YellowStone

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2007, 12:18:53 AM »

Hi Laren,

This thread seemed to have enough support without me weighing in. :)

However, I think a small point may provide a great deal of understanding in regard to the many Scriptures you quoted.

You correctly stated that 'a' gospel of Christ has been preached to the ends of the Earth, yet there is an insurmountable difference between hearing the words and understanding the truth or the TRUE Gospel. Paul even knew of this, which no doubt prompted his following words.

1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.  

Believe what? The words of man; the promise of instant perfect life in Heaven or an eternal unceasing torture in a firey hell hole?

Really? Is this what was meant when Christ said the folowing:  :)

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, ‘Go into all the world (Greek kosmos) and preach the gospel to every creature.

I think not. For the gospel I was taught as a child, is very different than the truth that God's Spirit has now allowed me to see. It is not the same, and the truth as I know it now surely has never been preached to the ends of the Earth. Ask any so called Christian on the street about what happens when they die and see what answers you get. I believe you would get more truthful answers from atheists, who say there is nothing, simply death. Well at least they got that part right! :)

Yet it not up to man to find his own salvation, hearing it is simply not enough.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 

And yet, there are still those who will never come to Christ, because it is not God's plan.

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 

For not all will recieve the Spirit of Truth.

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I think it is somewhat presumptuous to suggest that God's spirit, the Spirit of Truth is in everyone this present day. The Spirit of Truth is a gift from God and is life changing. No man can read the heart or the motive of another man, yet their actions speak volumes.

Mankind as a whole has simply neither seen nor heard the truth and will not until the Spirit of Truth opens the eyes, ears and heart to the truth.

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again (spiritually), he cannot see the kingdom of God.


I hope this helps a little :)

Love to you,

Darren
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 12:53:23 AM by YellowStone »
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Laren

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2007, 01:44:02 AM »

Hi all, I didn't mean to turn this thread into a preterism thread.  I am not necessarily convinced of it either, but i have learned a lot from reading and studying about it.  All your questions and observations I have had too, and each one can be answered, if you want to read and study the idea of it.  If it is something that doesn't interest you, or you fear will led you away from staying faithful to the end, then by all means don't. 

I have some interesting website links and like i said a great book that really goes into detail re: the idea if anyone is interested.  For the best interest of this forum and respecting Ray's teaching's, I haven't listed them, and PM me if you want to be referred to some of these sites. 

thanks all for your replies, and i appreciate your sincereness (is that a word? :))

Laren
« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 01:44:52 AM by Laren »
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Kat

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Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2007, 01:53:09 AM »

Hi Darren,

That was really well put  :)
The gospel has been preached to the whole world, and that does explain all the scripture that Laren provided concerning this.

In Matt 24:14 it does say 'this' gospel, and I was wondering about Christ saying specifically 'this' gospel.  But I did notice the rest of the verse, and that needs to be considered.  So I have looked up some scripture, that I think relate to this verse.

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

In 1Cor. we have the order of things that lead up to "then comes the end."
 
1Co 15:20  But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
v. 21  For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
v. 22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
v. 23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
v. 24  Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
v. 25  For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
v. 26  The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
v. 27  For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
v. 28  Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

It looks like in Matt. 24:14  "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached ... then the end will come." maybe this is the same 'end' as "Then comes the end," in 1Cor 15:24.  And it shows in 1Cor.15 that this is talking about after Christ has put all things under His feet in the kingdom, and "then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

We do know that 'this' gospel will be preached in the kingdom when Christ reigns on earth.

Rev 14:6  And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting(agelong) gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people,

I just found this to be very interesting, and thought I would bring these scripture out in considering Matt 24:14.  

Now I think to understand the is, was, and will be of Christ, you have to consider where God's plan is at any given moment in time.  The 'is' for anyone, is what is happening at any particular point in God's plan.  The 'was' are the things that have been fulfilled, before any certain point in God's plan.  And the 'will be' are those things yet to be complete, from any point in God's plan, until "God may be all in all."

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

« Last Edit: May 08, 2007, 10:19:13 AM by Kat »
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Laren

  • Guest
Re: End time prophecy not related to hell
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2007, 11:05:54 AM »

Hi Darren,

That was really well put  :)
The gospel has been preached to the whole world, and that does explain all the scripture that Laren provided concerning this.

In Matt 24:14 it does say 'this' gospel, and I was wondering about Christ saying specifically 'this' gospel.  But I did notice the rest of the verse, and that needs to be considered.  So I have looked up some scripture, that I think relate to this verse.

Mat 24:14  And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

In 1Cor. we have the order of things that lead up to "then comes the end."
 
1Co 15:20  But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
v. 21  For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
v. 22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
v. 23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
v. 24  Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
v. 25  For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
v. 26  The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
v. 27  For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
v. 28  Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

It looks like in Matt. 24:14  "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached ... then the end will come." maybe this is the same 'end' as "Then comes the end," in 1Cor 15:24.  And it shows in 1Cor.15 that this is talking about after Christ has put all things under His feet in the kingdom, and "then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

We do know that 'this' gospel will be preached in the kingdom when Christ reigns on earth.

Rev 14:6  And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting(agelong) gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people,

I just found this to be very interesting, and thought I would bring these scripture out in considering Matt 24:14.  

Now I think to understand the is, was, and will be of Christ, you have to consider where God's plan is at any given moment in time.  The 'is' for anyone, is what is happening at any particular point in God's plan.  The 'was' are the things that have been fulfilled, before any certain point in God's plan.  And the 'will be' are those things yet to be complete, from any point in God's plan, until "God may be all in all."

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



excellent post Kat, and I agree with you.  The thing is preterists would agree with your post too.  It's just that they see the end has come, and death (covenant between man and God through the law has died, the law=the administration of death).  God is now in covenant based on the risen Christ and we are beneficiaries of that.  In Christ (Christ and first fruit saints), Abrahams promise has been fufilled.  And now through them, all families will be blessed.  The will be blessed is you and me, according to them.  We are not the elect according to preteristic thinking, not the first fruits.  We are the "to be blessed", through grace, not through old covenant thinking.  We are not under old covenant law, there is no covenant between God and us, which was the ministration of death, it is done.  Grace reigns. 

So from Joe's post, re: "do i still see death, still see tears", the answer is no, because that was the result of covenant between man and God.  Old covenant is tears, death etc.  New covenant is life. 

Now that doesn't mean as humans we don't try to put ourselved under a covenant that doesn't exist anymore, but through grace and God's timing, we all "awaken" to the grace that is ours, our blessing is now and will continue.   
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