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Author Topic: free will?  (Read 7285 times)

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hillsbororiver

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Re: free will?
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2007, 06:10:31 PM »

Darren you wrote;

"God is free to will anything",

This is the Truth.

I believe that the Father is the only entity that has free will, period.

Even His Son testified to this, that the Father's will must be done, as the Father is greater than our Lord.


Mat 19:17  And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mat 26:39  And he went a little farther and fell on his face and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Joh 13:16  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice,  because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jehovah (Jesus), the God of the Old Testament is bound by His Father's will, how can the creature be greater than the Creator?

The circumstances, the causes, that direct our actions are as a potter forming a vessel, He is creating us this very minute and it is He who forms us as He wills not by our own.

Isa 64:8  But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
 
Luk 12:25  And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?

As Ray, Chris and other members here have pointed out we have the ability to make choices but within a very narrow range of options, and that is while we are even in our carnal state and without God given faith we cannot choose Him.

Mat 16:15  He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
 
Mat 16:16  And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
 
Mat 16:17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This verse sums it up for me;

Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe


The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part B http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part C http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html
The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part D http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html
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YellowStone

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Re: free will?
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2007, 06:33:40 PM »

Joe,

Sometimes it's hard to cause my face muscles to form a smile  :(

But not this time!!!  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I have learned something today. 'Instant Coffee' is a fallacy :)

This was good:

Luk 12:25  And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?

Action is Cause. Thoughts without action is as nothing.

Thanks Joe,

Love in Christ,
Darren
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seminole

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Re: free will?
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2007, 11:48:39 AM »

I am just not that smart when trying to read behind the wording and all that. I will leave this topic alone for those who can figure out the words and phrases.
Seminole
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gmik

  • Guest
Re: free will?
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2007, 06:47:54 PM »

Seminole, Not sure what you meant on your last post or if you will even return to see my post...anyway....

To: Craig, Joe, Darren, Matt, Kat, Diana, Rocky, CDJ, and CIY (I hope I didn't omit anyone)

                A BIG THANK YOU!!!!!!!!

Upon rereading this thread I have gotten the biggest blessing.  Yes, this is a very tough topic for our minds to grasp, especially if you were brought up believing in free-will.  But the wisdom in scripture, the links to Ray,  and the simple examples that everyone has used here has set my feet a dancin! Its getting clearer and clearer.

Seminole, you simply must study, reread, study, ask questions. You are among wise counsel here.  Don't give up.
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Jackie Lee

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Re: free will?
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2007, 08:17:07 PM »

I still struggle with freewill, even though for years I wondered Why things didn't pan out the way I planned sometimes the opposite.
I still think if I had know then what I know now things would be different.
It wouldn't have though.
 I would have did the same thing all over.
I know that I know we have no freewill yet I still revert back like we do.
 I hear almost daily about freewill, I usually say things will work out the way they are supposed to.
I just can't bring myself to tell someone yet we have no freewill.
The last time I even tried to mention it was close to a confrontation.
It is  a battle for me to concede to the fact we have no freewill just choices.
What a battle yet I know it is true.
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YellowStone

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Re: free will?
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2007, 08:34:30 PM »

Hi Jackie,

This will be short as there is not much to proving that free-will cannot exist.

All one needs is to ask: If you could do it your way, would you?

Of course, one will get a resounding: "You bet!!" :)

Here is the "check-mate" move. Just ask: "Then why don't you, your will is free is it not?"  :D

After that, you can perhaps ask why "they" didn't step in earlier: they were free to do so, were they not.

It's just a matter of perspective; we all live in our own little world and even that is severly limited. :)

I hope this helps, perhaps you can use it sometime. :)

Your brother in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 08:35:49 PM by YellowStone »
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gmik

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Re: free will?
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2007, 08:36:20 PM »

 ;D ;D

It just keeps getting better!
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Robin

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Re: free will?
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2007, 08:43:48 PM »

Ditto to what Gena said. I appreciated all the replies. Thank you!

Hebrews 12:16-18
16Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.


I've experienced this myself. Many years ago when I first started seeking truth God made it very clear to me that he wanted me out of a relationship I was in. At that time that relationship was the desire of my heart. It was everything I'd hoped for after a long life of neglect and abuse. I heard God's command and wanted to obey, but the desire of my heart was not in the right place. I started to seek repentance. I wanted to obey God. I just couldn't do it. I sought it with tears. This went on for 4 years. During that 4 years God was teaching me about having no free will. I was telling all my friends in my church at that time that we had no free will.

One day I was experiencing a lot of emotional pain about not being able to obey God. I sat and prayed with a woman from church. After we prayed she looked up at me and said I was always telling her that we had no free will and yet I was trying to free myself to obey God. It was a light bulb moment for me. I realized I was trying to bring myself to repentance and was failing miserably. I went home and got down on my knees and repented of my pride. God brought me to repentance. On that very same day God showed me what the cause was that kept me from being able to obey him in regard to the relationship. I was free on that day. God brought me to repentance and before that I didn't even know there was a need to repent of the pride that was keeping me a slave to sin.

I was also thinking of the years when I believed all the lies and thought it was the truth. Again I did not know I was deceived and could not at the time know I needed to repent. God had to show me truth and then bring me to repentance. It is God that drags us to repentance and changes the desire of our hearts.

« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 08:44:26 PM by M.G. »
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pylady

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Re: free will?
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2007, 10:15:09 PM »

Hi,

You people blow me away, your words are so thought out and wise, and always make me think, especially when Bible vs are quoted.  Thank you all for your efforts.

Just a few thoughts I had.  If this were a site where we discussed philosophy or perhaps it would be psycology we'd have to ask the following questions.
Did we choose who are parents are, or where we were born.  Did we choose to allow only those outside bits of information that we are bombarded with daily, perhaps millions of bits of info that our brain processes even though we may not be aware of it.  When we watch tv, read something, listen to the radio, talk to someone, even see billboards our brains are busy storing that info away.  We may be blissfully unaware that we are constantly absorbing and being influenced by these millions of pieces of info, but we are.  doctors say even in the womb we are absorbing information. 

We are all the result of everything that has influence us in our lives.  Who doesn't know or heard of some very nice, kind christian who is prejudiced or maybe even hates people of another race or religion or culture.  Why?  Because this is what they were taught all there lives and it seems right and "normal" to them. 

Rather than have free will (which, or course, is what I was taught)  it seemed to me that we are under attack from birth on by the whims and lies and false information (of course, it's not all lies and false information) that we are fed a steady diet of.  It takes great wisdom to separate the true from the false.  For all my trying my whole life, I was not able to do it of my own "free will". 

So if we were dicussing philosophy I'd be feeling pretty hopeless right now that I have been shaped by so many things outside of my control.

What a wonderful liberating experience it has been to know that I don't have to use my will to find God, and to know Him, but that He has willed me to know Him.  That it is His spirit that can shape me and overcome any and all harmful influences in my life. 

I gladly give up any idea of free will which I don't have anyway, to let His will be done be done in my life.

With Christian love,

                Cindy

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mari_et_pere

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Re: free will?
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2007, 03:58:26 AM »

I have another way to see this maybe. My sis called me today. She's having a hard time and wanted someone to talk to, and I'm brother slash therapist you see. Well, she was talking about how this person acts this way, and another acts that way, and she herself feels this and that, and I explained this the best I could think of to her.
I'm a good example of it. I'm a pretty shy dude, not very outgoing. Why? I didn't choose that; in fact it drives me a little crazy sometimes, it really bothers me here and there. BUT....that's how I am. That's how my brain was made to work BY GOD when he created me. My wife's a good example: her heart is so huge, so loving and caring that she has trouble saying no to anyone who asks for something. She'll go so far out her way for people that it strains her whole day. Later she'll say "Why in the world did I just drive 2 hours, waste gas, yada yada......" It's because God made her mind work that way. Her heart is golden.
I don't choose to be shy or awkward. Trust me I don't LOL! But I am. And I don't know how many times I've heard my wife on the phone say "Okay I'll help" and then as soon as she's hung up she realizes what she got herself into. She'll say, "Why did I say yes?" Because circumstances prompted her to.

Everyone of us think a little differently. We're much like snowflakes in a way; no two are exactly alike. My mind will work totally different in a given situation than yours. I guarantee it! (or your money back.) Just the way your mind works affects the judgements and decisions, and ultimately the action that you take.

Another way to look at the free will argument is stop looking through YOUR eyes with YOUR emotions with YOURSELF as the centerpiece. Look at the BIG PICTURE. Like my example of me driving to work, through construction, running late, being stressed and all that.......the whole world does stuff like that. Everyday. People cross paths with others by accident, and it's just snowballs every second of everyday and night. Billions of people! How awesome, how frighteningly awesome, is our God to be able to control all of that? Woah. I don't think I could control two radio-controlled cars at the same time, let alone 6.5 billion people, cars, animals, nature, and all the other factors that shape our everyday. Think about it too hard and you'll get dizzy......

Anyone who hasn't quite grasped the free will thing yet, let me tell ya.........I was on the verge of it for a long, long time. Way before I ever heard of this forum I wondered if free will was actually free indeed. I'm talking like when I was a young teen, about 15-20 years ago. So I watched the world, thought and dwelled on it. (That's what I do all the time.....think and dwell on stuff.) Most people think it's a waste of time. Let me tell ya........think about it. Trust me. It will dawn on you and you'll be like WOAH I THINK I REALIZE WHAT THEY MEAN NOW! Not many you ever tell will understand and they'll think you're a fruitloop, but who cares if they aren't as "enlightened" or whatever as you? :-)

Matt
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gmik

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Re: free will?
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2007, 01:36:45 PM »

Matt, you are a blessing!
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mari_et_pere

  • Guest
Re: free will?
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2007, 02:36:31 PM »

Thanks Gena! I probably didn't help with that but it's what ended up coming out. And if it didn't help or confused anyone, just remember I don't have free will so it's not totally my fault!  ;D

Matt
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Kat

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Re: free will?
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2007, 03:12:10 PM »


Hi Matt,

Actually your post is quite clear to me, because that is pretty much exactly the way I see things  8)
It really is a hard concept to get across to somebody else tho.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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sansmile

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  • my beautiful grandchildren
Re: free will?
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2007, 08:01:50 PM »

Matt,

Oh!   Matt   you have no idea how God has worked through you in the words you have wrote. I know exactly what you mean   only thorugh the grace of GOD.   What you put down in type.....is exactly how God uses RAY. We all have God's word in our hearts  but God has blessed ..in some people the gift  of putting it down on paper. Your responses in this topic  has caused  lol  me and hubby to discuss the events that God has put in our path over the past couple of days.   Chance?  free will?   cause?   His plan to bring about His will??
 What an awesome God!...Nothing is down to chance..as you said  "why am i even responding to this thread"?  Well if it only was to get others to discuss it...  Gods plan is being done. God bless you, and by the way i FEEL, the love you have for your wife , may you be blessed like we have..30yrs married on the 25th of this month  xxx
Love is from Him...He is love

God Bless you both ....Sandie 
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Walk in the Spirit

mari_et_pere

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Re: free will?
« Reply #34 on: May 13, 2007, 03:42:57 AM »

Wow Sandie....thank you for your words. You just lifted my mood 10 notches. It's been sort of a rough day till now! And how awesome that I said something that helped someone. I love that! Married 30 years? Me and Jenny have a way to go till we hit that milestone. This past January was 7 for us. God willing I'll see 30, 40, 50 would be great!

Matt
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: free will?
« Reply #35 on: May 13, 2007, 08:16:31 AM »


Good nourishing words !

Quote :    Chance?  free will?   cause?   His plan to bring about His will??
 What an awesome God!...Nothing is down to chance..as you said


AMEN ;D 8)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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