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Author Topic: The Bible Codes  (Read 6788 times)

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andrevan

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2007, 09:07:45 AM »

I was watching a so-called bible code documentary on TV, and these guys were demonstrating how you could find all kinds of things, from word placement, counting words, rearranging word letters, etc. All with a MODERN TRANSLATION  ??? ??? ??? Give me a break  ;D Talk about second-day quarterbacking. :)

Ha ha!  ROTFL :D ;D, this is so funny Darren, just how clueless can they get eh? Thanks for your post.

Fiddling with codes is a waste of their time, but it's all part of God's plan, boy the "wise" are really made to look foolish at times  ;D.

Andrevan.
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mari_et_pere

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Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2007, 11:52:01 AM »

LOL! Well you all are right who call it foolish! And indeed it is a huge waste of time and a distraction from actual study. Great scriptures too! Especially this one:

Quote
2 Tim 4 : 3 For the time is coming when people will not tolerate, endure sound and wholesome instruction (Ray estimates that only about 200 TWO HUNDRED people may be following his teachings!) but, having ears ITCHING FOR SOMETHING PLEASING AND GRATIFYING ( Bible Codes, The Davinci Code, over 3000 different Christian denominations! ) they will GATHER TO THEMSELVES, one teacher after another to a considerable number (TBN !) chosen to satisfy their own liking (need for entertainment) and to foster the ERRORS THEY HOLD.  4. And will turn aside from hearing the truth and wander off into myths and MAN-MADE FICTIONS. 5. AS FOR YOU, be calm and cool and stead, accept and suffer unflinchingly every hardship......

This is great! I love your interpretations and comments thrown in there!

Matt
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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2007, 03:23:54 PM »

Thanks Matt.

I think it fits like never before!.... :D We are in unprecedented times 8)...but I guess ALL times have been unprecedentedly more wicked. ;D

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2007, 03:41:08 PM »

You pose a really good question Sister Arcturus :)

Is the now "time" really more wicked than ever before, or is it our perception or rather reality changing due to our spiritual eyes. Are we now seeing and paying greater attention to the world around us? Not purposely, rather on the contrary, for now we see the "world" for what it truly is.

Seems to me the world was pretty wicked in the time of Sodom and Gomorrah   :)

However, I will say that I too see the world slipping away in regards to moraility, ethics, family values.

I would like to ask you about South Africa, for I am clueless. How would you rate society in general. Are you guys being kind of led down a slippery slope but being told differently? What about the quality of TV shows, music ect.

I am frankly disgusted with some of the commercials on public TV. For example, a father walks in and say's to his teenage son and daughter: "Good news, we now have FREE Text Msg on our cell phone plan to anyone, regardless of the network!! " :)

Only to be greeted with disinterest and a comment: "So what, we have that any way."

Instead of scolding the child for being disrespectful, all "we see" is him saying: "Well at least your mom doesn't have to work a second job to pay for it"

I would not use their phone service if it were given to me, and they expect me to PAY for their product. No way!!   ;D

But this is the type of social degradation I am talking about here in the US. What's it like in SA?

Perhaps, like I mentioned, it was always like this; however, now being in the "infomation" age; we see it for what it really is.

I would love to hear your (anyones) thoughts :)

Your brother in Christ,
Darren
 
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 03:44:01 PM by YellowStone »
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Kent

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2007, 04:43:22 PM »

We have turned evil into a fine art. Technology makes it possible to dig ones self even deeper into the sin gutter, because we are not consumed with working for survival all the time. We have all the time in the world now. All this free time allows people to invent even more evil.
Young people are being destroyed by it.

The family is dead, thanks to radical feminism and their indoctrination of younger women that goads them into hating men. I want no part of that, and I am not alone either. Look up "marriage strike", and it's growing. Even dating is out of the question.

I am 42, and in that time I have seen things degrade to the point that I dont even recognize this country anymore. I shutter to think what this world will be like in another 20, or even 10 years. In my opinion, we will be most fortunate to have another 2-3 more years left before we destroy what's left of this world / country.

These are perilous times, and it pays to be ready, MHO. Our redeption draweth nigh.


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YellowStone

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Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2007, 05:11:34 PM »

Oh Kent, I wouldn't quite go that far.  :)

The family is not dead and I know of no family that is; mine is flourishing.

My son and his girlfriend just graduated from highschool. This school believes in prayer every day and community work to help the needy.

Technology has not destroyed the world and neither is it destroying it; rather it is the lack of parental supervision / control on kids who really need it. Which kid doesn't. :)

Mostly the cause for the degradation of society is the people and their greed, more, more, more. Whatever it takes. Their have been so many advances in technology for the good of the world. Kind of like the old adage, guns don't kill people, people kill people. :)

However, you do make a valid point. Social reengineering is having a detrimental effect on how we see ourselves. How come almost 1/3 rd of shows on TV feature gays, this is totally disproportionate to reality. How come 90% of TV stars are gorgeous and have more "say" than anyone else. Why too, are we always told that x% this and y% that believe....when no one asked me or anyone I know. Why is this happeneing, because we the people let it.

This has always been a big concern of mine. Are we to sit back silently and shake our heads, mumbling....Christ, please come quick. What does the following truly mean?

Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 

Does it mean stand with our eyes closed? Or does it mean stand for the truth, and not let others take it away or bury it.

Eph 6:15  And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

Eph 6:16  Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Eph 6:17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Surely, upon quenching these fiery darts, we can sow seeds of truth. We cannot make them grow, for God alone does that. I have always struggled with this. How strong is my faith if I ignore? If I say and do nothing, am I therefore the same as the unfaithful servant who buried what was given him?  All good questions.

Yet, Kent, do you really believe that soceity is behaving outside of God's will / control?

Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9:22  [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

All of what is happening in this world is for our instruction and benefit. Do not think for a moment that all is as we are told. For I know of know one who has given up on the family. God is working all to his will.

I hope this does not offend :)

Your brother in Christ,
Darren

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Deborah-Leigh

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2007, 05:18:12 PM »

Darren your questions (italics) my observations (blue) :

Is the now "time" really more wicked than ever before,

Yes it is. Scriptures confirm it. Each era is more vile, subtle, sophisticated in debauchery and more vehemently violent than the next. The glossy heroics cover a multitude of sins. The paralysis of the conscience spawns higher and higher levels of lawlessness and corruption dressed up as social finesse, fashion, culture and art that is more wide spread through media technologies than ever before.

or is it our perception or rather reality changing due to our spiritual eyes.

There is more blindness today than ever. The population is greater than ever before and the ratio to spiritual decay is greater. This is again confirmed in the Scriptures.

Are we now seeing and paying greater attention to the world around us? Not purposely, rather on the contrary, for now we see the "world" for what it truly is.

Understanding comes only from the Spirit of God. FEW are chosen in any generation and that number does not increase to MANY in any generation. It is book ended and as final as God does not change and He is the SAME.

Seems to me the world was pretty wicked in the time of Sodom and Gomorrah  


Check the scriptures. Jesus said : Matt 11 : 23 And you Capernaum, are you to be lifted up to heaven: You shall be brought down to Hades, the region of the dead! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in SODOM, it (SODOM) would have continued until today. Why? Because Capernaum had exceeded the wickedness of Sodom and Sodom would have responded to the works of Christ and repented and endured! So which way is the graph showing evil is going? Up or down. According to the Scriptures evil was advancing exponentially till this day. Paul "saw"  it coming and cried and Jesus said it.

Luke 18:8...when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?  

This Word from Jesus with the teaching and explanation is in the LOF series wherein Ray points out that the question Jesus poses is revealed as indicating that the answer is in the negative not the positive. In other words there will be VERY FEW who are faithful and found to be so when Christ returns.

I would like to ask you about South Africa, for I am clueless. How would you rate society in general. Are you guys being kind of led down a slippery slope but being told differently? What about the quality of TV shows, music ect.

It is like in SA like it is all over the world. There is no haven on earth without Christ who is the true refuge.

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 05:23:26 PM by Arcturus »
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blakparty

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Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2007, 05:32:37 PM »

Van Impe has been claiming the world will end every 4-5 years for the last 20 years.   

Craig, you are sure right.  But my thing is, if the world don't have the mind of Christ, how in the world can they even come close to knowing any such codes that are in the Scripture.  I thought everything in the Scriptures was spiritual.  They can't even see that they will be saved , or God is going to judge them, or anything of the sort. 
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Kent

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2007, 05:44:07 PM »

Quote
Yet, Kent, do you really believe that soceity is behaving outside of God's will / control?

No.

But I am not going to let myself be used as a punching bag either  ;). I am not a friend of this world system, so by default I am it's enemy. I'll welcome any and every person into the fold, that God brings into it. But until that happens I see no point in trying to be friends with them. Be nice, kind, etc. OK, but they wont get too close, because I'd rather be alone than unequally yoked.

I am not offended, bro  ;D
I, on the other hand, can be rather blunt, forgetting that in this setting people cant read my tone of voice, etc. So, please take this into account. I mean no offense to anyone at any time.

Peace
K

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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2007, 05:57:16 PM »

Arcturus - My commets to yours in brown P

Darren your questions (italics) my observations (blue) :

Is the now "time" really more wicked than ever before,

Yes it is. Scriptures confirm it. Each era is more vile, subtle, sophisticated in debauchery and more vehemently violent than the next. The glossy heroics cover a multitude of sins. The paralysis of the conscience spawns higher and higher levels of lawlessness and corruption dressed up as social finesse, fashion, culture and art that is more wide spread through media technologies than ever before.

If a sin is a sin is a sin, then is the world more wicked today than yesterday in the eys of God, or the eye of man. I ask this in all truth and honesty, for:

Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?[/
color]

or is it our perception or rather reality changing due to our spiritual eyes.

There is more blindness today than ever. The population is greater than ever before and the ratio to spiritual decay is greater. This is again confirmed in the Scriptures.

No man can be blinder than blind. No man can see the truth until it is given him to see. Praise be to God. :)

When I said "our" I was speaking of those who can see, not of the blind world. :)  Sorry for the confusion.


Are we now seeing and paying greater attention to the world around us? Not purposely, rather on the contrary, for now we see the "world" for what it truly is.

Understanding comes only from the Spirit of God. FEW are chosen in any generation and that number does not increase to MANY in any generation. It is book ended and as final as God does not change and He is the SAME.

Ditto, for surely those who can see through the Spirit can now see the world as others fail to see.

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Is the world MORE evil today than yesterday? Is not evil, evil in the eys of God just like a sin is a sin, for no man is perfect. God does not change in intensity, I do not think evil changes in his eyes either. Only in the eys of the world and those so equipped to see. That included the spiritually enlightened. :)

Does that make sense?



Seems to me the world was pretty wicked in the time of Sodom and Gomorrah  


Check the scriptures. Jesus said : Matt 11 : 23 And you Capernaum, are you to be lifted up to heaven: You shall be brought down to Hades, the region of the dead! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in SODOM, it (SODOM) would have continued until today. Why? Because Capernaum had exceeded the wickedness of Sodom and Sodom would have responded to the works of Christ and repented and endured! So which way is the graph showing evil is going? Up or down. According to the Scriptures evil was advancing exponentially till this day. Paul "saw"  it coming and cried and Jesus said it.

Luke 18:8...when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?  

This Word from Jesus with the teaching and explanation is in the LOF series wherein Ray points out that the question Jesus poses is revealed as indicating that the answer is in the negative not the positive. In other words there will be VERY FEW who are faithful and found to be so when Christ returns.

Was there ever faith to be found on the Earth. Could the argument stand that even Christ's "faithful" followers faltered at given times, even during his trial and crucification.

The world was evil in the age of Paul. I do not believe God uses evil quantitatively but rather qualitatively, there is a subtle difference.

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

I do not believe, nor do I believe that you do either :) that the world is "falling" of it's own accord, for:

Rom 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

God is the master potter and we are the clay. :)  I think you would agree. :)


I would like to ask you about South Africa, for I am clueless. How would you rate society in general. Are you guys being kind of led down a slippery slope but being told differently? What about the quality of TV shows, music ect.

It is like in SA like it is all over the world. There is no haven on earth without Christ who is the true refuge.

True, but I was interested in your thoughts of the physical changes, the ones you experience on a day to day basis. If you do not want to share then that is fine. :)

Peace to you

Arcturus :)

Thank you so much Arcturus for a wonderful discussion. My only additional comment is that I can see the world like I could never see it before. I see hope and I see sadness; I see love yet I see fear. Before, I just saw ME! :(

Love to you in Christ,

Your brother,
Darren
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 06:01:33 PM by YellowStone »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2007, 06:24:04 PM »

Hi Darren,

I used these charts on another thread not long ago. 
What this shows me is that the population has dramatically increased since the early 1900's and has been climbing sharply ever since.





-According to the U.S. Census Bureau as of April 2007 the world population is 6,590,527,998.  We have passed the 6 1/2 billion mark.
-2,000 years ago the estimated human population was 150 million
-By 1850, the human population was one billion. By 1930, it was 2 billion.
-It took 10,000 generations to reach 2 billion.
-The human population is now growing at a rate of about 3 people/second or 260 thousand/day or 1.8 million per week or 93 million/year

I would have to think with so many people in this world that there would be a equal rise in sin to parallel the growing population.  And as this population gets more dense, there would be more sin all around, as people interact. 
I also would say that as much advances in technology for the good of the world, there has also been an equal advances not for good.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 12:10:57 PM by Kat »
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2007, 06:52:26 PM »

Hi Kat :)

I think you might have missed my point on quantitatively and qualitatively More of, does not mean more so

I will post again, some of what I wrote. :)

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

God created evil, in the same manner as man creates a 12volt battery. If man then makes a 1,000 such batteries, there still be only ever 12 volts, but the amperage will increase (exluding cross wiring)

I believe that God made evil and evil hasn't become more evil in power, but rather in frequency.

God see's evil (in my mind) qualitatively; Evil = X

Man see's evil quantitatively, Evil = X times 1,000,000

God does not change. When he creates something, it stays created.

Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

God is the master potter and we are the clay, we cannot yet only see through spiritual eyes.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.  

Are we not sinners :( still?


Love to you Kat,

Your brother in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 06:53:46 PM by YellowStone »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2007, 07:59:21 PM »


Hi Darren,

I think I understand the point you are making;

Quote
Is not evil, evil in the eys of God just like a sin is a sin, for no man is perfect.


But there is some difference in how much one sin, as Luke 12:48 says some will recieve more stripes, some few stripes.

Quote
No man can be blinder than blind. No man can see the truth until it is given him to see.

This world is becoming worse as a whole and in individuals.
There is this scripture that indicates that evil will go from bad to worse.

2Ti 3:12  Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
v. 13  while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

And this scripture that Jesus says that the evil in someone can become worse.

Luk 11:24  "When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, and finding none it says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.'
v. 25  And when it comes, it finds the house swept and put in order.
v. 26  Then it goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there. And the last state of that person is worse than the first."

Just what I see on this  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat



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gmik

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2007, 08:18:41 PM »

When I see these growth charts I sometimes chuckle to think about "re incarnation".  Where are all these NEW people coming from????
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2007, 08:41:52 PM »

No problem at all Kat.

I believe we are both on the same page.

I think I can explain it with the following:

Luke 24:26  Then it goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there. And the last state of that person is worse than the first."

In other words, the final condition of the man will be worse than the start.

That the man is evil is unquestionable; however, my point is; how much more evil can a human become? Has not every atrocity known to man already been committed? Well let me answer this as best I can. Evil is evil as sin is sin, but how evil would the world be if we began watching TV shows where people were put to death for the fun of it? Shock, horror.....The Romans have already done this, and a great percentage of the populace were okay with it; or not willing to do anything about it.  :(

I do not believe that the evil is any more evil than it was; just more wide spread.

A final question for you. Will God judge an evil man whom never received the spirit of truth the same as a not so evil (quantitive) man who had repeatedly been exposed to the truth and repeatedly turned away?

Thanks so much,  :)

Your brother in Christ,
darren
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2007, 09:06:34 PM »

When I see these growth charts I sometimes chuckle to think about "re incarnation".  Where are all these NEW people coming from????

I have seen some wonderful examples of reincarnation and in everyway, I cannot explain. Like the 7 year old boy who could name every piece of a WW2 fighter plane, knew where had crashed and died and the name of his "then" copilot. He knew all of this, but couldn't read the words he was saying. This kid knew things no one could know.

Reincarnation, I don't think so. I figure if God wanted me to know, he would have told me.

I just can't discount Satan.

2Cr 11:14   And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. :)

Thanks Gena,

Your brother in Christ,
Darren
 
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seminole

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #36 on: May 16, 2007, 09:46:52 PM »

Don't know if this will make sense or not to anyone about this subject. My Grandmother was crippled at an early age and was bed-ridden for many years. She was stricken with this crippling rheumatoid arthritis when she was 32 years old. By 1960 she was completely bedfast and remained there until some surgeries were developed that helped some. When she became bedridden there were no curse words(even little 4 letter words) commonly used on t.v. or even movies. There was not the high divorce rate and so on. She was completely shocked when she became able to be taken out with us around 1978. she couldn't believe the dis-respect that children showed their parents and other adults. Her senses were assaulted by all the changes that had taken place. I tried to imagine how it would seem through her eyes. I was accustomed to the same changes that she was shocked by. I didn't even notice when someone would use, as she said, "an ugly word". Could that be why things seem so much worse now? We have become calloused to things that in an earlier day would not be tolerated.
Seminole
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #37 on: May 16, 2007, 11:28:46 PM »

Seminole,

I agree, I think belligerent acceptance is probably the most insidious evil of all.

Do we accept because we expect no better or because our eyes and hearts are focused on higher things?

I hope none of the above.  :D  Because, I do not accept a lot of things.

Very good reasoning, thanks for sharing.

Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #38 on: May 16, 2007, 11:52:05 PM »

Hi seminole,

That was a good example about your Grandmother being shocked by the difference those years of isolation made.  It really does brings out the point that we become calloused.

Your question Darren,

Quote
Will God judge an evil man whom never received the spirit of truth the same as a not so evil (quantitive) man who had repeatedly been exposed to the truth and repeatedly turned away?

An evil man will be judged and purged of wickedness according to how he has lived his life.   It matters not how many times someone has heard the truth, until God opens their eyes and drags them to Christ, they can not understand.  We are not responsible for our own salvation, but accountable for our actions.

Gena, you mentioned the population explosion  :o
I have a very simplistic way of looking at this. The human race started out with two and the increase of people multiplying was slow at first.  Well when the population started getting up pretty high the amount that it increases starts making a much bigger difference.  When you have billions of people multiplying now, the increase is staggering and what's going to stop it?

I know you were joking about reincarnation, but since there was a mention of it, I found this email of Ray's.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3897.0.html ------

Dear Walter:

No, there is no such thing as human "reincarnation." Reincarnation is an ancient doctrine of the pagan Egyptians. God knew us from before the foundation of the world, not because we existed back then, but because we were IN HIS PLAN. God knew every person who would ever live, and when they would be born, and how long they would live, how they would live, etc., etc., etc.  And He didn't plan for any to perish, but that all will come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth (if not in this life, then in Judgment).

God be with you,

Ray
----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: The Bible Codes
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2007, 01:25:54 AM »

Hi Kat, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. Perhaos I should have worded it better :)

Please let me explain in greater detail........

Your question Darren,

Quote
Will God judge an evil man whom never received the spirit of truth the same as a not so evil (quantitive) man who had repeatedly been exposed to the truth and repeatedly turned away?

An evil man will be judged and purged of wickedness according to how he has lived his life.  It matters not how many times someone has heard the truth, until God opens their eyes and drags them to Christ, they can not understand.  We are not responsible for our own salvation, but accountable for our actions.

I believe that it is erroneous to assume that once God has opened our eyes and filled our hearts with truth that the truth will remain inside us forever. Paul speaks very strongly on what happens when the enlightened "fall-away" from the truth. Repentance is not an option.

Hebrew 6:4-6 [NIV]
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because [fn2] to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


If any who has been brought to the truth should fall-away, may God have mercy on their soul, because they cannot be brought back, for doing so would nullify Christs Ransom and disgrace him. :(

Kat, I truly believe that their is a marked difference in God's eyes, between the unrighteous evildoer and that of one of God's enlightened who turned away. The unrighteous can repent, not so with the fallen child of God.

Do you now see why I asked that question? Who can really know the mind of God? But know this, we must always treat the Spirit of Truth that has been graciously given us, as our most valued possesion, bar none!

Ephesians 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God– 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

This is the truth as given to me,

Does this make sense Kat?

Love in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: May 17, 2007, 01:35:28 AM by YellowStone »
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