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Author Topic: Trinity question .  (Read 8691 times)

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mrsnacks

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Trinity question .
« on: May 15, 2007, 01:34:05 PM »

So am I to understand that the church has the trinity wrong in one aspect.The rest we are in agreement ?  And that is the Holy Spirit isn't the third person of the Godhead but is just the Spirit of God. So it is not three persons making up one God.
So instead of three being one God - it is two - God the Father and His Son Jesus ? Thanks.
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skydreamers

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Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2007, 01:59:52 PM »


1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

As I understand it, there is only one God (the Father) who has existed eternally.  Jesus came out of the Father, and is like God, and called God, because God the Father gave to Jesus the attributes of being like God. 

So Jesus is the son of God, but I don't think he existed eternally with God like the church teaches.  In other words, Jesus had a beginning, but God the Father did not.

Peace,
Diana
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2007, 02:05:52 PM »


Hi mrsnacks,

This is a little long, but it covers your question really well.

http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#trinity -----------------------

[Ray Replies]

Dear Layne:

Thank you for your comments. I too do not claim to understand all mysteries.

However, I try to stay in the parameter of what the Scriptures reveal. The Scriptures do NOT reveal that the Holy Spirit OF God is really the Holy Spirit GOD. It is ludicrous to say that the spirit of God is a third part of a triune God when we are plainly told that Jesus Christ was "CONCEIVED by the Holy Spirit" but after Birth is called "The Son of the Father" rather than the "Son of the Holy Spirit."   Jesus Christ HAS A GOD (God the Father). God the Father DOES NOT HAVE A GOD!!! Jesus Christ is and always will be "SUBJECT" to God His Father (I Cor. 15:24-28). No Trinitarian has ever even attempted to reconcile such Scriptures with a trinity theory.

Jesus Christ and His Father ARE ONE! What does that mean? Has God not given us other examples of how two can be ONE? A husband and wife in union ARE ONE, yet they are individuals. The Son is the VISIBLE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD. That is Scriptural. God manifested HIMSELF to His Creation SONWISE or SONLY. The Son can be seen, the Father CANNOT BE SEEN. John tells us that we will see Jesus AS HE IS. I know of NO Scripture that tells us that we will ever see the Father (do you?). We pray TO the Father IN THE NAME OF Jesus Christ, through the spirit OF God--Both the Father and the Son have the SAME SPIRIT! That the KJV uses the personal pronoun "he" is hardly justification for making the Holy Spirit the third member of triune God.

The relationship between the Son and the Father are mentioned over and over and over again in the Scriptures. NOT ONCE do the Scriptures speak of a relationship between the Son and the Father and The Holy Spirit.

I have little interest in the trinity theory. I merely wrote a paper on it because people often ask. The one negative I do see in the theory, however, is that a trinity is in effect a "closed Godhead."  Yet, the Scriptures plainly tell us that WE TOO CAN BECOME MEMBERS OF THE VERY FAMILY (not trinity) OF GOD. If we could become members of the 'trinity' then by the very nature of words and their meanings, the trinity WOULD CEASE TO EXIST! Think about it.

We too, mankind, also, like God, have a spirit. Our spirit, however, is NOT A SECOND PERSON! If I am with you 'in spirit' then I AM WITH YOU. My spirit is NOT SOME ELSE! Nor is it an ADDITION to me. Without MY spirit I would not exist. Without GOD'S spirit, GOD WOULD CEASE TO EXIST--GOD IS SPIRIT!!! God communicates and operates throughout the whole universe by HIS spirit. We TOO partake of this same spirit, but not through a third person of a trinity.

Jesus Christ told His disciples before His departure:

"Now, whenever the consoler [Gk: 'parakletos '= BESIDE - CALLer] which I shall be sending you [notice that Christ is the Sender, but FROM the Father], that will be testifying concerning Me" (John 15:26).

Now notice this:

"But I am telling you the truth.  It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, THE CONSOLER WILL NOT BE COMING TO YOU." (John 16:7).

Why? If the Holy Spirit as a third person of a triune trinity is what God's spirit really is, then WHY would Jesus have to depart before IT could come if IT is a separate individual FORM Jesus?

What or Who is this "comforter?" Is it the third personality of a triune God? Let's read it:  

"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit OF truth [Christ is TRUTH. He said "I am THE TRUTH"]..." (John 16:13).

"That will be glorifying Me, seeing that OF MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is Mine. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE is it getting, and will be informing you" (John 16:14-15).

Whatever is coming to comfort His Apostles after He is gone is something that is OF CHRIST that the Father GAVE TO HIM. Did the Father give to Christ the third person of the trinity???

Now John 16:27-28 from the Concordant Literal New Testament:

"...seeing that you are fond of Me, and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD [out from beside God]. I CAME OUT FROM the Father and have come into the world.  Again, I am LEAVING THE WORLD and am going TO THE FATHER."  

After Pentecost the apostles never saw Jesus again the THE FLESH. And therefore Paul plainly informs us that:

"Yet even if we have known Christ ACCORDING TO FLESH, nevertheless now we KNOW HIM SO NO LONGER. So that, if anyone is IN CHRIST, there is a new creation..." (II Cor. 5:16-17).

Back to John:

"Remain IN ME.  I also AM IN YOU...He who is remaining IN ME, and I IN HIM..." (John 15:4-5).  

We are IN Christ and Christ is IN us. Next:

"If anyone should be loving Me, he will be keeping My word, and My Father will be loving him, and WE SHALL BE COMING TO HIM AND MAKING AN ABODE WITH HIM" (John 14:23).

And the Father ALSO will make His abode WITH US. How is this done? By the third person of the trinity? No. Christ said HE would be in us. And Christ said the Father would be also. But specifically HOW? And why must Jesus go away first?

Remember that Paul said we no longer know Christ according to the flesh. And Christ never appeared to the Apostles after Pentecost IN THE FLESH. Christ went back to the Father, but He said He would not leave us comfortless, but that He would send a comforter. He also said that it would be the "spirit of truth" and that it came TO Christ from the Father and now it IS CHRIST'S to do as He will with it.

Then who or what is this comforter, this 'parakletos'?  God's Word tells us. John is the only writer who uses this word 'parakletos.' So where else does he use it?  I John 2:1:

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.  And if any man sin, we have an advocate [Greek: PARAKLETOS!!!] with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the Righteous" (I John 2:1)!!!

There it is! Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER. Jesus Christ IS THE PARAKLETOS!

When we receive the Comforter it is CHRIST, IN SPIRIT [no longer according to the flesh]! IT IS CHRIST THAT COMFORTERS US THROUGH HIS SPIRIT WHICH JOHN PLAINLY TELLS US HE RECEIVED FROM HIS GOD AND FATHER! It is THEIR [the Son's and the Father's] SPIRIT that comes in us! No trinity here! No trinity anywhere!

"Hereby know ye the SPIRIT OF GOD:  Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is COME IN THE FLESH is of God" (I John 4:2).

"Hereby know we that WE DWELL IN HIM, and HE IS US, because He hath given us OF [genitive--OF] His spirit" (Verse 13).  

It is JESUS CHRIST Who comes IN OUR FLESH. To deny that that it is JESUS CHRIST Who comes in our flesh is the spirit of ANTICHRIST.

CHRIST is our comforter. CHRIST leads us into all Truth. It is CHRIST in us the hope of glory. CHRIST is the parakletos. And this is all accomplished by the spirit OF God which the Father gave also to Christ and so we have the spirit of both the Son and the Father making its home IN US, not a third person of a fabled trinity!

OF COURSE Jesus Christ is God. He is the VERY IMAGE, THE EXPRESS IMAGE, OF THE INVISIBLE GOD HIMSELF--and that makes Christ GOD. And Jesus and His Father ARE ONE and they operate through ONE SPIRIT--THEIR spirit, not some OTHER person of a trinity.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2717.0.html -------

Dearr Robbins:
I John 5:7-8 should read: "For there are three that bear record, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."  The words "...in heaven the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And thee are three that bear witness in earth..."  are not Scriptures and are found in NO Greek Manuscripts or even the early Latin Fathers writings and translations. These spurious words appear in no reputable manuscript, and no manuscript period, before the FIFTEEN CENTURY!  No Biblical Scholar thinks those words are part of any original manuscripts or Scriptures. They are as spurious as the pagan trinity doctrine.
------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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berniekruger

  • Guest
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2007, 02:35:19 PM »

Quote
So Jesus is the son of God, but I don't think he existed eternally with God like the church teaches

May I draw your attention to the following?

John 1
The Word Became Flesh

1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2   He was with God in the beginning.
3   Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

and

Passage John 17:5:
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

and

Revelation 19:13:
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

See also Matt 22:41-45

All NIV translation

I personally think Jesus existed with God for all time, to me whether God, Jesus and Holy Spirit = 1 persona or are individual persona is unimportant.  Jesus is the appropriation for our sin, none other.

Likewise the baptism in water 1 immersion vs 3 immersions, irrelevant!  Sprinkling however  ???

Luv to all
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2007, 02:43:21 PM »

Hi All,

Just a short note that might add some light to the subject.

There is one God and of course one Jesus Christ. Christ came out of the Father, but is yet internal to the Father; Christ is in no way external to God. There are not "1" + "1" equalling two external , eternal, separate Gods. :)

So even the dual God concept is flawed, because Christ is internal to the Father. Kind of like placing a balloon inside another and blowing them up. Now let's imagine for a minute that we are inside the "two" balloons. We can only see and touch the inner balloon, the outer balloon would be invisible to us for the two balloons are so close to each other that for all sense and purposes, there is only one balloon.

Both balloons in this instance are identical, yet one is visible to us, while the other is not. One is subject to the other. (the outer)

I fully realize that this might be a poor analogy but I in my mind it fits the concept of God and Christ pretty well.

Moderators, if this is plainly against what Ray teachers, please delete it.

Comments welcome,

Love in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 03:57:01 PM by YellowStone »
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2007, 02:46:09 PM »

Quote
So Jesus is the son of God, but I don't think he existed eternally with God like the church teaches

May I draw your attention to the following?

John 1
The Word Became Flesh

1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2   He was with God in the beginning.
3   Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

and

Passage John 17:5:
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

and

Revelation 19:13:
He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

See also Matt 22:41-45

All NIV translation

I personally think Jesus existed with God for all time, to me whether God, Jesus and Holy Spirit = 1 persona or are individual persona is unimportant.  Jesus is the appropriation for our sin, none other.

Likewise the baptism in water 1 immersion vs 3 immersions, irrelevant!  Sprinkling however  ???

Luv to all

I think you might have missed the following :)

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Love to you in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: May 15, 2007, 02:47:10 PM by YellowStone »
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nmendes

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Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2007, 02:47:22 PM »

Kat,

I thank you for inserting Ray's explanation of the trinity to me.  I had to admit that I once believe this false belief in the trinity.  I didn't 100% understand it but it was believed by the masses and so i accepted it.  It is very dangerous to go along with the majority.  They are not always right.  Look what they did to Jesus.  But then again, it was all part of Our Father's plan anyway.

Peace and blessings

Love
Nicole.
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Redbird

  • Guest
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2007, 02:56:04 PM »

Hi Darren,

I think that was a pretty darn good analogy!

John 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 5:37  And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
John 6:46  Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
John 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?


Peace and Love ~ Lisa
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2007, 03:03:00 PM »

Thanks Lisa.....  :) :)

Love to you,
Darren
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berniekruger

  • Guest
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2007, 03:17:56 PM »

Quote
I think you might have missed the following

Forgive me, been out of the word a long time, trying to kick-start the spiritual brain.

This seems to be the major hang-up others have on other blogs  Trinity, was never an issue in my life and most people cannot substantiate their belief system with respect to this!

Even the Apostles creed opening statement makes no mention of a trinity

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
    the Creator of heaven and earth,
    and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

later on

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic church,
    the communion of saints,
    the forgiveness of sins,
    the resurrection of the body,
    and life everlasting.

    *The word "catholic" refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Luv to all
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2007, 03:53:04 PM »

Hi berniekruger,

Please do not think that I am saying you believe this "apostles creed" but since you brought it up I was reminded of an exchange Ray had with a Professor (through one of his students) in regard to the historical background of the "creed."


From Robert;

My professor says hello also. He had the other students visit other web sites also. We view your web site directly in class.

But he did tell me to tell you that your doctrine is contrary to Billy Graham, Billy Sunday, D.L. Moody, Charles Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, the Fist Apostles Creed that was established in 70 A.D., but most important Jesus Christ and the Scriptures.

But your doctrine and he quotes your web site in class, goes along with Charles Taze Russell, founder of Jehovah Witness, Joseph Smith, founder of Mormon or Latter Day Saints, Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Christian Science and Sun Young Moon founder of the Unification Church.

Though you may not consider yourself a cult you have many of their doctrines that go against the Scripture and that these known cults hold fast too. He uses your material on power point slide presentation to show the manner people go completely off the Scriptures by criticizing men of the Gospel.

He asked me to ask you if you have reached the Gospel as these men on the Internet that you criticize. Or if you have led these many as they to the Lord. Your response, as the last one was, will be read in its entirety to the class.

Here is part of Ray's reply, the entirety can be read here; http://bible-truths.com/student.htm

Your professor's statement about the "Apostles' Creed" was intriguing. Established in 70 AD was it? And I suppose their is Scriptural or historical documentation to that effect? Is he choosing such an early date because he is suggesting that this creed was actually written by the Apostles?

My Encyclopaedia Britannica has this regarding the creed:

"Scholarship has shown CONCLUSIVELY that the received text given above [the one commonly recited today] is an elaboration of the baptismal creed of the Roman church in the 3rd and 4th centuries. The text of the latter has been recovered in Latin from Rufinus' commentary on the Apostles' Creed (c. 404) and in Greek from a letter sent by Marcellus of Ancyra to Pope Julius I in 340. The FACT that the Greek almost certainly represents the original is a testimony to its antiquity."

Big difference between 70 AD and the forth century AD, however. Also, if you care to note, the original rendition of this creed did not contain the words "descended to hell" as it does today. I have zero interest in "creeds." If I am to be condemned or branded as a "cult" for not believing in unscriptural, manmade "creeds," so be it! Why get bogged down with unscriptural creeds when we have GOD'S WORD?

And just how serious is that little addition, "descended to hell?" Well, as I stated in my last communication, if Christ was not REALLY DEAD during the three days and three night that He was in the tomb, but as this Apostles' Creed suggests was rather traveling about some fabled hellhole, then YOU DON'T HAVE A SAVIOR! If you students are as "demanding" as you suggest, Robert, then I wish and pray above all things that they will DEMAND THE TRUTH! Never, EVER, settle for less than the absolute Scriptural Truth!

His Peace to you,

Joe
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mrsnacks

  • Guest
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2007, 04:05:05 PM »

Jesus has always existed is my understanding. He told the Pharisees that before "Abraham existed I am " right ?

So Jesus came out of the Father So He had to always be. God is eternal.

I was reading Ray's writings Kat and he said that there isn't God being referred to as Father in the OT. So isn't the OT not talking about God the Father then what is the OT referring to then ? I take it that He doesn't become Father until Jesus is born and Jesus is conceived by the Holy Spirit. Then like it is like me with my first child. I became a father when my child was born. Is that right ?
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hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2007, 04:41:02 PM »

Hi mrsnacks,

Although Jehovah of the OT and Jesus of the NT are One and the same Jehovah/Jesus did indeed have a beginning, when He came out of the Father. Adam even existed before Abraham and that does not make him "eternal." The following is also from the "Trinity" paper.


Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:

This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).

And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."

"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"

And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:

"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 14-17).

Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!

Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,

For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!

Jesus Christ said,

"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28).

Where do we read that Christ is GREATER than the Father? There is no trinity in this verse!

And again:

"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all."

Where do we read that someday God the Father will be SUBJECT to Christ? There is no trinity in these Biblical truths.

And again:

"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" (I Cor. 11:3).

Where do we read in Scripture that Christ is the Head of God?

There is another profound statement in the Scriptures that PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ is not part of a trinity, but is now and always will be, under the Headship of His Father. Here it is:

"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER..." (Eph. 1:17).

There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:

Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"

And remember these statements concerning Jesus Christ "having a God" were made long after His resurrection and restoration back to His former glories. Today, our Lord STILL HAS A GOD! And need I repeat the fact that the God and Father of Jesus Christ DOES NOT HAVE A GOD?! And someone out there still thinks God is a equilateral trinity?

There are many more Scriptures that show the distinction between God the Father’s office of supreme deity of the universe and that of His Son and Image, Jesus Christ the Lord and Mediator.

Please read it all here; http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

His Peace to you,

Joe


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berniekruger

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Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2007, 05:24:56 PM »

Quote
Please do not think that I am saying you believe this "apostles creed"

No I don't.  It's just something that popped into my mind, had to google it to find the text.  I have a "gospel" song in my archives based on this.

I have not read Rays article about this but as mentioned earlier, found this so called lack of belief in the trinity appeared in many other blogs, see my introduction for links and counter posts I made.

I find it just sad that people make major issues over something so irrelevant.  Jesus is our Saviour, No man comes to the Father except through me and No one comes to me except the Father Draws him..(paraphrasing).  Likewise details of baptism.  Churches have split over these very issues.

I am not denominational and I am trying to unlearn the doctrines of man.

Bit rusty but as time goes by hopefully my posts will have more scriptural backing, just happy to be sharing again, something I like doing, been at it 14 hrs now

Luv to all
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mrsnacks

  • Guest
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2007, 08:38:34 PM »

I understand that Jesus came out of the Father. But then some say that Jesus isn't an eternal being yet He is considered and worshipped as God. God by definition is eternal.

So is everyone here in agreement that Jesus is God ? Thomas worshipped Jesus by saying My Lord my God and Jesus didn't rebuke him. This is still confusing to me because if the Father is greater than Jesus and Jesus is God- then Jesus is in a way God but inferior to the Father right ?
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Craig

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  • There are two kinds of cops.The quick and the dead
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2007, 09:01:19 PM »

Quote
So is everyone here in agreement that Jesus is God ?

Yes, Jesus is God.

Craig
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CDJ

  • Guest
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2007, 02:52:09 AM »

Quote
So is everyone here in agreement that Jesus is God ?

Yes, Jesus is God.

Craig

...I too say yes.

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kudeta

  • Guest
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2007, 02:53:39 AM »


My thoughts tend to run mathematical, and the analogy I've always used to try to explain God/Jesus is to think about a two-dimensional world into which a Sphere projects (piece of paper with a tennis ball stuck through it).

The inhabitants of the two-dimensional world (flatlanders) have no way to percieve the Sphere (God) as a whole, because they are two-dimensional themselves, so all they can see is a fuzzy green Circle (Jesus).  The rest of the Sphere is beyond their senses.

Now, the Circle (Jesus) and the Sphere (God) are not exactly synonymous, but nor is it incorrect for the flatlanders to refer to the Circle (Jesus) as the Sphere (God), because it is everything they can see of the Sphere, it is the interaction of the Sphere with flatland, it is what the Sphere would be if it were two-dimensional.

Likewise Jesus is not precisely the same Being as the Father, but He is the very Image of the Father, and He is how the Father interacts with the world, and His Will is in perfect alignment with the Father's.
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andrevan

  • Guest
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2007, 08:23:15 AM »

Hello Mr Snacks

I came across this today while reading 2 Corinthians before reading your post [amazing how God works everything ;D], this is for me proof positive that there is no 3rd person:

2Co 3:5  not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think anything, as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God,

2Co 3:6  who also made us sufficient to be ministrants of a new covenant, not of letter, but of spirit; for the letter doth kill, and the spirit doth make alive.

Who is this spirit?

2Co 3:17  And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is , there is liberty;
2Co 3:18  and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Just my 2 cents  ;).

God's peace to you.
Andrevan.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2007, 08:23:49 AM by andrevan »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Trinity question .
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2007, 10:51:20 AM »


Here is a part out of the 2006 Mobile conference, that I think might fit into this discussion.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html ---------

 Jesus Christ is the GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT.  Jesus Christ WAS God and Jesus Christ IS God.  And yes, Jesus always had and still has a God (Eph 1:17).  But the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, has NO God.  It was Jesus Christ (Elohim - US) who created the heavens and the earth and humanity, “…in OUR image.”

In Rev. 19:16 it says Christ had, “on His thigh He has a name written,”  the Word of God.

There’s no getting around it, the Logos, the Word is Jesus Christ.
The creator of heaven and earth is Jesus Christ.
The creator of the human race in Jesus Christ.
No man has ever seen God, only Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ when He acts on behalf of God, with the power of God, The knowledge of God, wisdom of God, and the love of God, with the strength of God and the character of God, IT IS GOD.  But He is not the Father.  He came to reveal the Father.

John 7:29  “But I (Jesus Christ) know Him (the Father), for I am from Him, and He has sent Me.
Now you know the one that sends someone is greater than the one who was sent.

John 13:3  “Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands,
and that He had come from God and went to God,”

Where did Jesus Christ come from?  Well was it the Trinity, the third part of the Trinity?  A third part of the Trinity, equal with the other two parts of the God Trinity?  NO, He came from God.

So in John 13:3  “and that HE CAME FROM GOD,” that’s where Jesus came from, GOD.
Not from the Godhead, not from the Trinity, FROM GOD.

John 16:27  “for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD.”  (Just like Eve came out from Adam)
v. 28  “I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and have come into the world.”

1 John 4:9  “In this the love of God was revealed in us, because GOD SENT HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON into the world that we might live through Him.”

v. 14  And we have seen and testify that THE FATHER SENT THE SON to be the Savior of the world.

Heb 1:2  “has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom HE HAS APPOINTED heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds,”

If Jesus Christ was part of a triune god, a trinity, then nobody’s appointed anybody, nobody is sending anybody.  There is not one greater authority in a perfect equilateral triangle.  But Christ said, My Father is greater than I, (John 14:28).

Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The beginning was the Word of God,  what did God began with?  Jesus Christ, right, the Word.  That’s what God began with, Jesus Christ is the beginning.

In Gen. 1:1 it says, “In the beginning[ Heb: reshiyth - spec. Firstfruits] God [Heb: Elohim] created the heavens and the earth”
 
We read in 1 Cor 15:20  “But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.”

That Jesus Christ “became the Firstfruit of those who slept.”  Who is the Firstfurit?  JESUS CHRIST.

Where did Jesus come from:  John 7:29; John 13:3; John 9:42; John 16: 27-28; 1 John 4:9, 14.
 
Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:2; Rev 3:14.  Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all.  So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God.  But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.

A couple of other points here.  Christ said to the Pharisees, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58).  He didn’t say I was, He said “I am.”  And what did He tell Moses?  Moses said who will I say sent me and He said tell,  “I AM THAT I AM” (Exo. 3:14), or I Am what I will be, is what the Hebrew indicates.
So Adam, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Jacob and the Hebrews, never knew God the Father, they knew Jesus Christ - Yahweh.  When they hung Christ on the cross, they crucified their own Creator.

In 1 Cor 10:4, that Rock was CHRIST.  It also says in verse 9 that follows that “we should not tempt Christ.”  When they tempted “the Lord” (Exo. 17:7) back then, they murmured against(tempted) Christ (Deu. 1:27; 1 Cor. 10:10), is what it tells us.

So Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament.  He is the reason Elohim is plural, “and God said let US.”
So the Father is doing the creating, but it is done through His Son, Jesus Christ, His first born.  Now for scriptural proof, in Heb. 1:8 it says "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of the eons ...”  Now I know the Jehovah Witness and I’ve read all their stupid ways of trying to get around that verse, and it just won’t smoke.  It means what it says, God addresses Jesus Christ as “Thy throne, O God,” and the O is in there, it’s in the Greek and it’s back in the Hebrew where this verse is quoted from as well.

Only God is to be worshipped, the leper came and worshipped Him (Matt. 8:2), the chief, worships Him (Mat. 9:18), and the woman came and worships Him (Matt 15:25).  Rev 1:8  "I am the Alpha and the Omega … the Almighty."  That’s Christ, God.  “And the Word was God,” (John 1:1)  Thomas said, when he felt the holes in Christ’s body, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28).  And Christ did not correct Him.

Titus 2:13-14 “The Great God and Savior Jesus Christ;  Who gave Himself for us…”

So He is God, but He is not His own Father, ok.  And Jesus Christ came to reveal the Father, Luke 10:22; John 6:46;

Matt 11:27, “Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.”
Nobody knew anything about God the Father, until Jesus Christ revealed Him.  The only God that anybody knew was Jesus Christ.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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