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[seminole]

John I understand what you are saying. The tithe money comment disturbed me and I don't see the point of making it. Losing someone dear to your heart is awful. Hearing of a death of someone we don't know personally will give us pause but not have the same impact. I don't think we can go around heartbroken with sadness or so full of rage over an injustice because we wouldn't be effective to do what God gifted us to do. I got so mad today I was in a rage and had to haul myself back down. A work-out buddy called to tell me about a little baby that was put in a microwave oven and turned on! That babies dad did it! I can't imagine how the family (grandparents, etc.) are feeling right now. Even though it's not like Jesus, I did think how sweet it would be to throw the switch on that one.
Seminole

[Ward]

Yes, Jerry Falwell has died...

Yes, the earthly life he just completed was just as God had determined from the beginning.
Its obvious that one of the jobs he was given in this life was to teach the "strong delusion," to millions of the "Many Called."  He accomplished this in many ways, including:

• Founding and leading a large church...
• Founding and leading a large university...
• Creating and leading the "Moral Majority"...
• Advising many world leaders...

He was very very successful...  His church and his university alone taught hundreds of thousands of others to carry forward "his" message.  "His" message instead of Christ's.  (A message that is "instead" of Christ's, where have I heard that before?  Oh yeah... That's the definition of ANTI Christ.)

His title was Rev... 2,000 years ago it would have been Pharisee.

He was a sinner, just as we all are...  But he has left hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of followers behind.  These followers will carry forward "his" message.  That is the problem.

Should we pray for his family?  Of course!  But pray for what?  Comfort?  Yes...  But more importantly, pray that the strong delusion that they all exist in will be lifted.  And pray for the rest of the world that will be evangelized by his huge number of followers.

Should we speak out against him?  Naw...  Most of us were like him in one way or another at one time.  Until we were made ready, we were not drawn to the truth nor could we understand or accept it. 

What should we do? Anything?  Yes...

• Pray for those that have not been given eyes to see and ears to hear.
• Be thankful that we have been given the gifts of faith, sight, and hearing.
• And most of all, boldly live our lives obedient to God and study to be ready to answer those that will be drawn to us.  That is how we can worship God.

\/\/ard

[INDIANA-P]

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;[/color][/quote]

It sounds pretty foul to me to see you try to link your bitter and vengeful comments with the mind of Christ.  Jesus loved the man enough to pay for his redemption... how dare you imply otherwise?

blessings,
 - John

[/quote]


Hello, John I apologize if you think my comments were full of bitterness and vengeful. I assure you that this was not my goal. But lets be careful, YOU! I believe is my brother not JF. so let us not sin against one another, I never said that I did not love JF and of course Jesus died for him and also us. There are two types of love, the love that Jesus had for the Scribes and or the Pharisees, is also the love I had for JF.   

Brother L. Ray teaches the difference between the two types of love.

But here is what Brother L. Ray taught concerning the ministry of Jesus

Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, "fools, hypocrites, blind guides, whited sepulchers, a generation of snakes," and many such epithets? Jesus called them "hypocrites" seven times in one chapter. Jesus spoke with scathing derision to the Scribes and Pharisees throughout His ministry He had a kind word but for very few of them.

 

[INDIANA-P]

John I understand what you are saying. The tithe money comment disturbed me and I don't see the point of making it. Losing someone dear to your heart is awful. Hearing of a death of someone we don't know personally will give us pause but not have the same impact. Seminole

Hello, seminole

I am sorry if my comment disturbed you and you did not see the point.

I really didn't mean anything by it, it was just a remminder that this man according to what we've learned on bible-truth.com was wicked. and yes Losing someone dear to you is an awful thing. Please forgive me.   

[mari_et_pere]

Interesting to see how this thread panned out. I think we are (hopefully at least) in agreement that for whatever reason it is, God's will was for "JF" to die when he did and how he did. It was also His will for JF to do all the things that he did during his lifetime. It really honestly doesn't matter what the things were. I agree with pretty much everything you all have described him as, but it doesn't matter. I'm sure his family is emotionally suffering right now. At least they think he's in heaven so I'm sure that's a comfort to them. When I see him I'm sure me and him will get along just fine in the glory of God, amen?

Matt

[kudeta]

Hello, John I apologize if you think my comments were full of bitterness and vengeful. I assure you that this was not my goal. But lets be careful, YOU! I believe is my brother not JF. so let us not sin against one another,

Accepted, of course, and my apologies to you.  "Bitter and vengeful" were very inappropriate words for me to use.  I am sorry I twisted an attempt at correction into insult.

But I'd like you to see what made me angry.

When you make a statement that Jesus is compassionate toward "the people" and not the "religious folk" right next to a statement that God loves some things and hates others, it does pretty strongly imply that Jesus hates "religious folk."

I'm sure you can see why it would upset me to have the Mind of Christ linked with such a terrible thought.

__

Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, "fools, hypocrites, blind guides, whited sepulchers, a generation of snakes," and many such epithets? Jesus called them "hypocrites" seven times in one chapter. Jesus spoke with scathing derision to the Scribes and Pharisees throughout His ministry He had a kind word but for very few of them.

Harsh language is appropriate for correction, for exposing heresy.  We have every right, even a duty, to do our best to champion truth and fight false doctrines.  But there should be a definite seperation between our treatment of false teachings and those who teach them.  To suggest that Falwell's family will consider wealth a consolation for his death is mean-spirited, not corrective.

It is possible to condemn the sinful actions and teachings of men without hating the men who commit these things. Jesus loved everyone. Jesus died for everyone. Jesus forgave everyone. Jesus forgave those who crucified Him before He expired and probably thousands of years before most of them will repent in judgment.

blessings,
 - John

[seminole]

No apologies needed .
Seminole

[josh]

Kudeta (John),

Here a few scriptures that you may want to consider:


Ecc 3:1  To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
Ecc 3:2  A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
Ecc 3:3  A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
Ecc 3:4  A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
Ecc 3:5  A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
Ecc 3:6  A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
Ecc 3:7  A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
Ecc 3:8  A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.


Pro 6:16  These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17  A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18  A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19  A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

God most certainly does "hate" those who are a false witness and speak lies... and those who sow discord among the brethren. Which is a perfect definition of "religious folks"...


Isa 66:2  For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.
Isa 66:3  He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

What we must be careful of is pointing the finger at others and labeling them "religious"... when we ourselves are still bound by the teachings of babylon.

We must look inward... the Kingdom of God is WITHIN!

Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The problem with most people (including us here on this forum) is that we too often read the scriptures giving ourselves the benefit of the doubt, while looking at others and seeing their shortcomings.

We are all blind... but God is changing that.


Rev 3:17  Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
Rev 3:18  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

God's Peace
Josh

[kudeta]

Pro 6:16  These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17  A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18  A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19  A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

God most certainly does "hate" those who are a false witness and speak lies... and those who sow discord among the brethren. Which is a perfect definition of "religious folks"...

Psalm 5:5  The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Romans 3:23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Now, if we read these verses in the way you are reading the ones you quoted from Proverbs, our conclusion must be that God most certainly does hate everyone.  Is that your understanding?  That God most certainly does hate all of us?

blessings,
 - John

[YellowStone]

John you wrote:

Psalm 5:5  The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
Romans 3:23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

Now, if we read these verses in the way you are reading the ones you quoted from Proverbs, our conclusion must be that God most certainly does hate everyone.  Is that your understanding?  That God most certainly does hate all of us?
Let me first ask a question

Have you ever loved a person yet hated what th?ey do? I know I have.

Do you think that God feels the same way?

For we can know without doubt that God loves us.

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.  

1Jo 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. 

So John, I do not think God would hate his creation, that simply does not make sense, but I can certainly see why he would hate our evil / carnal nature. 

Does that make sense?

Love in Christ,
Darren

[kudeta]

Darren,

I am not at all claiming that God doesn't love us.

And I'm not claiming that God hates us.  I'm asking Josh if he is saying that.

blessings,
 - John

[YellowStone]

Oops 

[josh]

John,

I apologize for taking so long to reply... I got roped into seeing "Shrek the Third" ... it couldn't have ended soon enough. 

I think we should define that there is a difference between those who are "workers of iniquity" and those who God has prepared as His "elect."

Mat 22:14 For, many, are called, but, few, chosen.

Here on earth, in the physical, God has created two types of vessels... some for honor, others for dishonor.

2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20  But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.

Notice that those who are His, that "nameth the name of Christ," DEPART FROM INIQUITY. Here lies the differences between those who are "workers of iniquity" and those who are His "elect."

Yes, "all have sinned"... but those who are "workers of iniquity" God allows them to keep on sinning, until it leads to age-abiding judgment  so that they can learn righteousness (Isaiah 26:9), but those who are God's elect, He allows them to DEPART FROM INIQUITY and be brought into age-abiding life

Mat 25:46 And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life.

We can sugar coat this and say that God hates the sin, but not the sinner... but it is just not scripturally accurate.

God, who is not a respecter of persons, has chosen His elect even before the world began...this may seem unfair to us, but allow me to direct our attention to the old testament where we see a type and shadow of this in the story of Jacob and Esau... here is an instance where even before these two men were born, God had chosen them each for a purpose... one to love, the other to hate.

Mal 1:2 I have loved you, saith Yahweh, and yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Is not Esau, brother, to Jacob? enquireth Yahweh, Yet have I loved Jacob,
Mal 1:3 And, Esau, have I hated,— and made his mountains a desolation, and his inheritance a dwelling for the jackals of the wilderness.

All that being said... allow me to suggest a link to a transcript from one of Ray's home Bible Studies where he discussed God's love and hate:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html

Hope this helps... get back with me after you read this article, I think it will help you see what I was originally stating.

God's Peace.
Josh

[kudeta]

Josh,

I'm impressed with your constitution.  I don't think I could bounce back from such a movie so quickly.   

Here on earth, in the physical, God has created two types of vessels... some for honor, others for dishonor.

2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20  But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honor, and some to dishonor.

Notice that those who are His, that "nameth the name of Christ," DEPART FROM INIQUITY. Here lies the differences between those who are "workers of iniquity" and those who are His "elect."

I notice that those who are His are directed to depart from iniquity.  I see nothing that suggests that they have departed.

Yes, "all have sinned"... but those who are "workers of iniquity" God allows them to keep on sinning, until it leads to age-abiding judgment  so that they can learn righteousness (Isaiah 26:9), but those who are God's elect, He allows them to DEPART FROM INIQUITY and be brought into age-abiding life

God's elect will depart from iniquity.  We have not yet done so.  We are still of flesh, still doing the very things we hate.  We are still waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, but it hasn't happened, yet.  We are not reborn into age-abiding life, yet.  We are workers of iniquity still.

We can sugar coat this and say that God hates the sin, but not the sinner... but it is just not scripturally accurate.

I have no problem with not "sugar coating" it.  I have no problem with saying God hates sinners.  I have a problem with singling out any group of people and saying that God hates them, as if we were not also still sinners.

--

Hope this helps... get back with me after you read this article, I think it will help you see what I was originally stating.

I have read the article, and I find that it does not mention "religious folk," much less seperate them out as a category that deserves special mention of being hated by God.

Here's the thing.  If your purpose was simply to correct my language, to point out that "God hates sinners" can be appropriate terminology, then I agree, and thank you for the nudge.  I really am grateful for this correction, and the study it prompted.

But that's not how you presented yourself.  You said:

God most certainly does "hate" those who are a false witness and speak lies... and those who sow discord among the brethren. Which is a perfect definition of "religious folks"...

You didn't just say "God hates sinners."  You continued with the setting apart of "religious folks" as though they possessed some distinction that earns them some distinctive kind of hate. 

If we are to use the language of God hates sinners, it must be understood that the hate is directed toward the carnal mind residing in every person, and not more directed toward someone who seems to us to be "more wicked" than general humanity.

blessings,
 - John

[josh]

John,

We are in agreement... there is not a soul who has ever walked the face of this earth, save Jesus Christ, who has, is or will be able to depart completely from inquity in the physical.

But the "elect" will depart from inquity, before the remainder of humanity... the "elect" are being judged even now... but the remainder of humanity will not be judged/purged until the LOF.

I think I am beginning to understand our miscommunication... when I "single out" religious folks, I am not only referring to JF and others like him... I am referring to all who believe that they have "the answer"... that can include even the members of this forum, even you and I... God forbid, you or I or anyone else here would ever think that we have all of the answers and believe that we are in need of nothing while we are yet poor, wretched, naked and blind.

Here is what the scriptures say about "religious folks" specifically:

Mat 7:22 Many, will say unto me, in, that, day, Lord! Lord! did we not, in thy name, prophesy, and, in thy name, cast, demons, out,—and, in thy name, many works of power, perform?
Mat 7:23 And, then, will I confess unto them, Never, have I acknowledged you,—Depart from me, ye workers of lawlessness!

Luk 13:23 And one said unto him—Lord! are they, few, who are being saved? And, he, said unto them—
Luk 13:24 Be striving to enter through the narrow door; for, many, I say unto you, will seek to enter, and will not be able,—
Luk 13:25 when once the householder shall rouse himself, and lock the door, and ye begin to stand, outside, and to knock at the door, saying—Lord! open to us; and he shall answer and say unto you—I know you not, whence ye are.
Luk 13:26 Then, will ye begin to say—We did eat and drink in thy presence, and, in our broadways, thou didst, teach;
Luk 13:27 And he will speak, saying unto you—I know not whence ye are; Depart from me, all workers of unrighteous—
Luk 13:28 There, will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, as soon as ye see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and, yourselves, being thrust forth outside.
Luk 13:29 And they shall have come from east and west, and from north and south, and be made recline in the kingdom of God.
Luk 13:30 And lo! there are, last, who shall be, first, and there are, first, who shall be, last;

Are these "religious folks" not those who bare false witness? Who prophesied and did miracles (falsely) in His name? Who (falsely) cast out demons and did (false) works of power?

Let's look at the passage from proverbs again, verse by verse:

Pro 6:16  These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17  A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Is it not the "religious folks" who are so proud of all of their false knowledge? Is it not the "religious folks" whose tongues are filled with lies motivated for their own gain? Is in not "the religious folks" who are so quick to say "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"?

Pro 6:18  A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

Is it not the "religious folks" who devise wicked imaginations (plans that are self motivated)? Is it not the "religious folks" who are always surrounded by controversy and scandal?
 
Pro 6:19  A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Is it not the religious folks that speak lies and deny the truth... is it not the "religious folks" who cannot keep the peace in their own churches?

Now, that all being said... let me say that I am not stating this to point the finger at anyone else but myself... I have been all of these things. I am still unbecoming all of these things. I am the "religious folks" who God hates... but one day I too will be redeemed, and I wait eagerly for that day.

God's Peace.
Josh

[seminole]

I think all the above can apply to just about everybody. From the richest to the poorest, from a church leader to a church attender and to the forum as well. There is something in human beings that make us want to be "right". I don't know if it feeds our self-esteem or what to have people support what we say and agree with what we say. There are so many denominations whether they are in a church or on-line because we don't all agree so people split off to their own theologies so they will be surrounded with people in agreement with the thoughts and beliefs of their interpretation of the Scriptures. That is not said to put anyone down but just an observation of us all. The main thing is what Jesus came for , the love and mecy He showed and His instructions for the early church(believers) to go about doing.
Seminole

[mari_et_pere]

Amen to that Seminole! It's basic human nature to not want to be argued or disagreed with. What we don't realize sometimes also is that two people with two seperate opinions can both be right. Right? I like chocolate, others like vanilla. Who's wrong? Obviously it's not always quite that simple, but as Jesus was a pacifist, so shall I be. Well okay I'll at least try. Okay, okay! I'll try really hard.    

Matt

p.s. To be 100% purely honest, I really don't mind if someone disagrees with me. You know what I hate though? Being insulted for what I said. There's no place for that in the body of Christ, IMHO.

Have a great day!!

[kudeta]

We are in agreement... there is not a soul who has ever walked the face of this earth, save Jesus Christ, who has, is or will be able to depart completely from inquity in the physical.

We are certainly in agreement about this. 

I think I am beginning to understand our miscommunication... when I "single out" religious folks, I am not only referring to JF and others like him... I am referring to all who believe that they have "the answer"... that can include even the members of this forum, even you and I... God forbid, you or I or anyone else here would ever think that we have all of the answers and believe that we are in need of nothing while we are yet poor, wretched, naked and blind.

The problem I have with terminology like this is that it is so vague it might actually make communication harder.  Would you include atheists as "religious folk" when they think they have "the answers"?  How about people who wouldn't say they know the answer, but claim that's because the answers are unknowable?  That's a kind of answer, but is it "religious"?  The more things we throw in - the larger the definition gets - the less useful the words become.

Let's look at the passage from proverbs again, verse by verse:

Pro 6:16  These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17  A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

Is it not the "religious folks" who are so proud of all of their false knowledge? Is it not the "religious folks" whose tongues are filled with lies motivated for their own gain? Is in not "the religious folks" who are so quick to say "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"?

Pro 6:18  A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

Is it not the "religious folks" who devise wicked imaginations (plans that are self motivated)? Is it not the "religious folks" who are always surrounded by controversy and scandal?
 
Pro 6:19  A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Is it not the religious folks that speak lies and deny the truth... is it not the "religious folks" who cannot keep the peace in their own churches?

It is the religious folk doing these things, but also everyone else.  Every person carries burdens of pridefulness, deceit, and hatred.

Now, that all being said... let me say that I am not stating this to point the finger at anyone else but myself... I have been all of these things. I am still unbecoming all of these things. I am the "religious folks" who God hates... but one day I too will be redeemed, and I wait eagerly for that day.

Ditto. 

blessings,
 - John

[Pax Vobiscum]

Last week, Billy Graham; now, Jerry Falwell.  Here we go again attacking another brother who has the audacity to see things differently than some of us.

Under what authority are such claims made?

Please stop.

Peace

[mari_et_pere]

Last week, Billy Graham; now, Jerry Falwell.  Here we go again attacking another brother who has the audacity to see things differently than some of us.

Under what authority are such claims made?

Please stop.

Peace

No offense, but this thread has turned into a pretty good discussion that's totally unrelated to Jerry Falwell. I'm not sure why you're taking offense and asking us to please stop. We've had discussions about character assassination for days now and I think we've all been in agreement about it. Have you read the recent posts? Everyone's done a pretty good job of not arguing or offending lately. Have you noticed?

Peace indeed.

Matt