It seems everyone goes through judgment in their lives here not just the elect.

[mrsnacks]

I am trying to understand judgment as Ray said here along with others that judgment comes upon those chosen in our lives now. The wicked - it comes later.
But it seems the people that I am surrounded with in churches or even unbelievers- are going through purging and refining now. Those especially in Babylon. The common denominator in everyone's life is that it is filled with conflicts, suffering, pains, sickness, death  etc. But we all will generally speaking face these things.
So how does one tell if you are being judged ?

[Kat]

Hi mrsnacks,

We all have to experience suffering, it's part of the experience of this life, even Jesus Christ had to suffer.

Heb 5:8  though being a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

I would say that suffering is for learning about good and evil and consequences.
But when the Holy Spirit is indwelling, then Christ is leading you to live by His commandments, which is spiritual and not known by the carnal mind, you are learning to live as God directs.

John 15:10  If you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love, even as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Here are a few emails that I thought would help.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility ----------------

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well!  We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,
Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4075.0.html -----------

Dear Brett:  "Judgment" means "to set things RIGHT." This can be done by acquittal or by sentencing. We, "the house of God" are being judged NOW (I Pet. 4:17). Jesus is our Judge.  We are judged for every word we think, every thing we say, and every deed we do.  There are many physical, social, financial, mental, psychological, and spiritual ways in which this is accomplished.  If God is calling you to be one of His chosen Elect, then what you call "life" IS THAT JUDGMENT.  We are not solely judged for what we do WRONG, but we are judged by being made to live in a world of persecution for doing RIGHT.  But I cannot elaborate on all the ways that this is done in detail. Jesus uses JUDGMENT, THE COUNCIL, GEHENNA FIRE, AND PRISON to Judge His disciples (Matt. 5:21-30). See also Isaiah 26:9.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2159.0.html ------

Dear Amy:
I think that all professing Christians who are sincere make some progress in their lives in stopping certain sins. But having your mind converted so that you no longer desire sin at all, is a diferent matter. It cannot be accomplished except by God's Spirit.  Many are CALLED and put certain things into practice and stop certain old habbits, but FEW ARE CHOSEN which completely turn their lives over to God so that sin no longer reigns over them.  This is not something I can tell you or teach you how to do. It will be done when it's God's time to do it.
God be with you,
Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1971.0.html ----------

Dear Shane:
No, God is not "unfair."  You are still looking at the lake of fire as some kind of a dungion of torture in real fire. It is JUDGMENT, not solely punishment. And Jesus plainly has told us that it is according to the magnitude of one's crimes. "Many stripes versus few stripes."

We too go through the fire of God's spiritual judgment:  Jugement is upon the house of God NOW (I Pet. 4:17 and Heb. 12:29).  It isn't pleasant, but it is not total torture either.  There are two aspects of Judgment:  [1] We must be purged of our old carnal sinful attitudes, and [2] we must then grow spiritually by godly living and produce spiritual fruit (Gal. 5:22-25).

The Church only partially sees the need for these in those called in this life, but is totally blind to the fact that Judgment produces the same thing in the Resurrection to Judgment.  They think that "grace" is merely a noun that does it all for us rather than grace being a verb that does it all  IN us and THROUGH us (by the Spirit of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross). God is ABLE to make us holy and righteous through His work in us and He is likewise able to do the same for the rest of humanity in Judgment.  We blaspheme if we suggest that God either does not want to save humanity or that He is unable.
God be with you,
Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3572.0.html -------

Dear Victor:
    Hitler, Saddam and his sons, and people like John Hagee and Dr. Kennedy who gloat over billions being tortured for all eternity, and many more just like them, will be Judged in the VERY SAME WAY THAT THEY JUDGED OTHERS (Matt. 7:1-2).  Their OWN SINS, will "TORMENT them" beyond comprehension, "in the PRESENCE of the Lamb" (Rev. 14:10), when God purges their evil consciences with His spiritual "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
    God be with you,
    Ray
-------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[mari_et_pere]

Mrsnacks, is the judgement you speak of actually judgement, or is it consequences of things they've said, done, or thought? I know in my life there have been many times I could have thought that God was judging me, but what was realistically going on was consequence for how I was living, or had lived in the past. See what I'm saying?
We all will surely be judged, but I don't think any of us can quite grasp or comprehend how huge it's going to be. It won't be anything we can imagine.

Matt

[Joey Porter]

I do think everyone is judged now to some extent.  We know that God is sovereign and in control of everyone's lives, so any circumstances than happen in someone's life are not an accident. But how a person views judgment is going to be determined by what they believe.

For example, the average Christian who believes in eternal security would probably not see any need for judgment in this life, so they would not even realize when they are being judged or disciplined.  Or someone who doesn't believe in God at all would just think that anything that happens in their lives are just by chance. 

It's all about having faith that God will and does discipline us constantly, and most importanly believing and understanding that we need it every day.  That way, we can recognize when He is doing it.

[mrsnacks]

How does one know if he is being judged or that it is consequences. Ray has said that we are being judged now. But how are we being judged ? How does one know ? Does judgment come in the form of misfortune ?

[Joey Porter]

How does one know if he is being judged or that it is consequences. Ray has said that we are being judged now. But how are we being judged ? How does one know ? Does judgment come in the form of misfortune ?

I think consequences are judgment.  Remember, nothing in the universe just "happens."  God controls everything.  So if someone is in a gang living a life of crime and they get shot or imprisoned, they are dealing with the consequences of what their lifestyle brought about, but they are also being judged and disciplined by God who is in control of all circumstances.  Whether or not the person sees it that way will probably be what determines whether or not they repent.

Having an understanding of God's complete sovereignty is probably the most important factor in understanding how He may be disciplining us.  At least, that's how I see it.

[Kat]

Hi mrsnacks,

I will try to explain what I think this jugdment is 

I think when the Holy Spirit comes into you, you began to see the world with different eyes.   
I think it is about additude, mostly.  You judge yourself, it's an inner feeling/conscience.
Things we do, like getting angry, gossip, cursing, or being dishonest, will bother you a lot and you just can't keep doing it. It's that way with everything, little by little your additude changes.
I think you actually judge your own thoughts, so that usually stops things from going any further to words or actions.

I'm certainly not saying you will completely stopped doing all these things, but there is a big difference in your way of thinking. 

And if you do something wrong, God will bring about means to correct it swiftly.  Like if you said a lie, not only would you feel badly, you would get caught in it and have to answer to the person you told it to.  I guess God chastening a lot of times comes from people with deal with.

I think if Christ is there, you know it and you live accordingly as He allows.  He won't try to change everything at once, that would be too much for you.  But He guides you to continually overcome more and more, by showing us what we do wrong, and it is usually a painful lesson.

If you are living in Christ you do the things He wants to do, not the things you want to do 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Kat,

What you said is so true, and we even get the added bonus of reflecting on things long ago forgotten until we thoroughly repent of those acts and thoughts as well! 

There will be no injustice, wrong, untruth, gossip, theft, lust. etc. that won't be dealt with either in this life or the one to come. There are times He may cast us into a spiritual prison where we are locked into these memories until they inspire us to literally beg for the Comfort of His Spirit, for the deliverance from our carnal thoughts and a reassurance of His healing grace.

It is a sure sign of maturation when we can experience this and have a certain joy in faith that we are being conformed into Sons and Daughters through this process.

His Peace to you,

Joe 

[Joey Porter]

And if you do something wrong, God will bring about means to correct it swiftly.  Like if you said a lie, not only would you feel badly, you would get caught in it and have to answer to the person you told it to.  It guess God chastening a lot of times comes from people with deal with.

This is true.  I think this is another reason why someone who believes in human free will might have a hard time recognizing and accepting God's discipline.  If we receive a humbling rebuke from someone, we shouldn't see it as someone doing it of their own free will.  We should see it as God using them as a vessel to chasten us.

Of course, we should also be grateful to the person who rebuked us.  But our overall understanding should be that it is God who brought it about.

[mrsnacks]

Good points by all.

Here lies a problem. I see in the church many ( including me at one time ) knowing that they shouldn't do this or that and get convicted of their wrong thinking and doing. But most I see lead defeated lives. I mean they sincerely love the Lord but seemed enslaved by their hangups or carnal ways. They want to stop it but have not received the power to stop it.

My daughter struggles with smoking. I know it is hard to stop. Some say it is like being hooked on heroin. She knows it is wrong but she gets stressed and smokes once in awhile. With me it is my not understanding my wife and her ways. She accuses me of being blind in some areas.  With another it could be struggling with alcohol or anger.

I have said living the Christian life is impossible in the flesh. But there is a purpose for the struggles and things that are in our lives. What I have found is that how do we get from point A to point B. Overcoming and conquering the sin or character flaw. I tell people don't worry about it. There will a day when they will, through Christ, overcome that obstacle. God is doing the work. So until then don't get uptight about it. Like Ray said about hating it enough that you will stop.
Getting to the hating part is a process. 

[Kat]

Hi mrsnacks,

I will say that I believe that lots of people can and do develop good character traits and overcome some sins.  Even for those in the world this is God's doing.  And these good things will not be burned up by God's purifying fire, but will remain. 
But it is a strange work that God is doing with mankind, it is a hard thing to comprehend.
Here is what Solomon-the wisest man to ever live, had determined.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
v. 14 I saw all the deeds that are done under the sun, And behold, the whole is vanity and a grazing on wind." (CLV)

It is the very few that God has begun to deliver and by Christ indwelling can seriously began to overcome the flesh.

Tit 3:3  For we ourselves also were once foolish, disobedient, deceived, slaving for various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
v. 4  But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
v. 5  not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
v. 6  whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
v. 7  that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[gmik]

It rains on the just and unjust.  "Life" happens to all people.

To me the difference now, is that I know I am powerless to do good or bad, but it is Christ in me, to will and to do of His good pleasure  I can't acknowledge my sin and then say OK I am finally gonna kick this habit or attitude or sin or whatever.  I now see the sin God is dealing w/ me and see it as an idol of the heart and pray that in Gods time and God's way He will allow me to correct it.

I don't want to hate my neighbor or his barking dog. I don't want to have secret sinful thoughts about kidnapping it- even tho I am jesting-I hope you get the point.  It is not always doing--now, spiritually, it is also in the "thinking".

You can't look at peoples sufferings and say they must be elect cuz they are really bad off. Or, gee, I have had a really easy life so I can't be the elect.  The pottery doesn't know who the Potter made.

[skydreamers]

I don't want to hate my neighbor or his barking dog. I don't want to have secret sinful thoughts about kidnapping it- even tho I am jesting-I hope you get the point.

Gena sista,
I can't wait to meet you one day!

Peace,
Diana

[gmik]

Well, right back at ya Sis!!!

Hmmmm  Canada is just next door to Michigan!

[hillsbororiver]

We often speak of "in" the church or coming "out" of the church when I think it may be that the word church has become confused with and polluted by the doctrines and actions of the men (blind guides) who run them and the sheep who blindly fall in the pit following them.

When we are blessed with the true gift of faith and receive the beginning of understanding the repititious mutterings of the pulpits in the brick and stick temples become impossible to endure, for some these dire warnings and the spiritual hocus pocus such as "alter calls" are intolerable to begin with, they either feel there is no God or that they would rather take their chances with hell than worship a god that would create someone knowing that creation would spend eternity being tortured with no chance of reprieve. Others just feel it is all confusion and maybe even group hypnosis so they respond like the children who saw the emperor really did not have any clothes on and just say "hey, why is the emperor naked, where are his clothes?"  In other words "why does your esteemed god behave worse than any man in history punishing the most trivial sins as much as the most atrocious?"

I do not know how or why God draws each and every individual to Him at one time or another, or at what point the judgments really begin in their/our lives or how many or few stripes anyone actually will receive in this life or in the next age(s).

There may be some folks observing this thread that never really bought into the denominational church thing and are wondering if they are still square pegs trying to fit into a round hole, I know that feeling. What I am trying to say is that I do not believe it is necessary to have been a happy tithe paying Sunday christian who at some point became disillusioned with mainstream churches and now have seen the light, I think one can "come out" of the political state/church system they were born into without ever really embracing it. The trials and temptations, the stumbling & falling, the learning to depend on Christ in everything will be learned by all eventually and the unique paths we all take to Him will never have exactly the same type of experiences along the journey. Below is a response made a long time ago to a similar thread. I thought it would be appropriate here;


There have also been some very profound changes in my life since the Lord began to drag me closer to Him. Until a few months ago I thought this change began just after I "stumbled" upon Bible Truths, in retrospect the change actually began a few years previous to that unforgettable night.

I have had many ups and downs, many setbacks (most of them self inflicted) and some incredibly fortunate ones as well, through all the times of poverty (not only financial) to self sufficiency to prosperity and back to poverty and through the cycle again and again I had this sense of optimism, that things were going to work themselves out no matter what situation I found myself in. Looking back I see that this optimism was actually at the root of many reckless decisions and the cause of much boorish behavior on my part, I might say or do just about anything and expect to be able to come out of it unscathed, others would notice this as well, a woman years ago once remarked "Joe, you could fall in a tub of **** (dung) and come out clean as a whistle, smelling like a rose. I believed it.

About 3 or 4 years ago this optimism started to recede, I was (and still am) in a good marriage, our daughter had graduated from college (since then obtained her Masters Degree) I had (and have) a very good job, earning a comforable living with the freedom to come and go as I please (as long as the Departments I manage meet their goals). I had every reason to be content and comfortable but I was uneasy, unsettled, something was definitely missing, there was a void in me you could drive a truck through.

My solution or diagnosis was that I needed to do something big, something that would outlast me, leave a physical, tangible monument that my daughter and eventual grandchildren could inhererit and live in long after I was gone, I was going to build a beautiful house.

We found the perfect property right on the river, close to everything but surrounded by woods, a park and only one neighbor bordering our property. I got busy on it and the feeling of dread only got worse.

I would have knots in my stomach from the time I woke up in the morning and it got to the point I was self medicating   just to be able to get through the day. There was absolutely no reason for me to be feeling this way, the construction was going smoothly, no disasters at home or at work but I was feeling lower and lower. I convinced myself it was just the stress of building (conveniently forgetting this feeling began before we even bought the property) and it would pass once it was completed. It didn't.

The dread and despair that had no name no cause (that I could see at the time) and no reason became part of my existence, I could hide it behind a mask of jovialness, but I also would explode in anger over some very minor things, my foundation was non existent, in winter I would look look forward to spring, spring to summer, etc. It was too painful living in the present but I had no clue as to why.

We went through a pretty active hurricane season in Florida during '04 and it was expected to be just as bad in '05, it was in the news constantly, meteorologists gleefully prophecysing doom and destruction for all, August 2 '05 I was at my wits end, that was the night I stumbled on Bible Truths. I Googled Revelation/Weather looking for some biblical writings on "end times" weather patterns and the first link was Bible Truths, I have never been able to duplicate that result since.

Ever since that night the despair has given way to an optimism I never knew before, far exceeding the carnal optimism I had since my late teens, a wonderful promise of redemption, of obtaining true life has been my driving motivation rather than accumulating "things." I found that I was walking through His Fire without knowing where I was, or where I was headed, tribulation has not ceased but knowing the Source gives comfort now rather than sorrow.

This has translated into how I perceive others, in the past when I would have to interact with people that had rather despicable personality traits I would either go head to head with them or write them off as "losers," sometimes both. Now I see them as walking through life untethered to anything of real sustainance (our Lord) they are freefalling, grasping, lunging at anything and everything, over reacting to situations because there is no measure in their lives.

I now visualize them as people who are reeling from financial setbacks, unable to meet their obligations worrying about staying afloat day to day even as they have the winning lottery ticket in the pocket of an old jacket, but they forgot about it's purchase and it's location. This winning lottery ticket is how the Lord made me feel when He so graciously revealed His plan and purpose for me. I don't mean to degrade this gift by comparing it to money, but He Himself compares this journey to seeking "treasure," it is that, but so much more too.

This suffering we experience to me is nothing compared to not knowing Him, believing His promise, appreciating His sacrifice and best of all knowing Him more every day. I don't want to minimize what each of us experience in our trials and tribulations but knowing the reason for this purification process should be a source of joy. We are being formed into Sons and Daughters of the Almighty God!

Praise our Lord and His (and our) Father!

Joe   

[YellowStone]

Joe, my dear brother and friend. Your post brought tears to my eyes, because I have been where you describe; lost, searching for answers yet not fully knowing the question.

I remember one night quite vividly and though I have never shared this with anyone as I am tonight, God showed me something and my fear of the unknown pretty much vanished.

I was in hospital with a crazy fever (105) and I had an infection and lost 35lb in 3 days. One night, I had a dream of walking in a lush green park, beautiful trees, flowers and people. I was walking towards a single wooden kitchen chair in a clear section of the park. I sat on it, and the chair instantly began to rise.

I remember thinking that this is pretty neat, watching how things slowly grew smaller, all the while granting me a greater field of view. The ride was gentle, I remember feeling the wind, smelling nature and hearing the sounds grow dimmer and dimmer. Soon I was in and above the clouds and the speed began to quicken. I soon could no longer feel the wind, I guess I had broken free of the atmosphere.

The fun kind of turned into concern and the Earth was getting smaller and smaller every second. It got dark! I had no idea what I was doing or where I was headed, yet I knew enough to know that fun was over. I thin I yelled "Enough, I want to go back!" or something like that, and to my astonishment, the chair slowed, stopped and then began to descend. Much to my delight.

Same as before, slowly at first but then faster and faster. This was cool, it was great returning to Earth. I had no problem with that. Darkness became light, I soon began to feel the wind as it rushed pass me as the Earth grew closer and closer. I guess I broke through some high level clouds and I seen the ground getting way closer a lot quicker than I wanted. Surely I didn't come back to be a hole in the ground.

I remember beginning to panic, but what I remember mostly is a sense of calm that engulfed me. I don't know how high off the ground I was, perhaps 500 ft, when the chair began to slow. Gently, no bumps or jerks it slowed to where I could again, see the trees, people, smell the trees and flowers, until finally my rate of descent stopped at the exact time the chair touched the ground, in the exact place it was before. I did not feel even a bump. No one even looked up.

No words were ever spoken to me, and I certainly did not see anybody or anything. I always knew it was God though, but I never believed it was a near death experience.

During the time since then, I have realized that the experience was a metaphor for my life. My life was very much like the start of the chair ride, everything was fine while ever I was in my comfort zone. I used to be a worrier, I guess I had lot;s to worry about. Worry of loosing control of my life was a big concern for me back then. But in that dream, I was taken beyond where I would normally go, I seen, felt and experienced things I had never experienced before.

I realized that my life, for all of my accomplishments, concerns and fears was just like that empty chair in a park that no one noticed. I discovered to my amazement, that the chair wasn't being drawn by God; it was God. Something changed that night; it put my life into perspective. Living was not running around, doing, playing and worrying. It was trusting and letting go.

To this day I wonder how far I would have gone in that chair, but don't think that, that was the the reason for the experience. I learned that fear is no match for trust and that this wonderful planet we call home has far more to offer [Rom 1:20], than the me, myself and I could ever grasp on my own.

I often feel myself in that chair, not real sure where I am headed, or what it Will be like when all is said and done; however, instead of worrying about it and losing sleep, I can simply smile and know that God is in control and all I need to do is let Him, and enjoy the ride. 

And what I ride it has been 

I know this was long, but I hope someone gets something out of it.

In Christ, with Love

Darren

[Chris R]

Great thread!

Sure judgement can be physical. but not all of judgement is physical.

We are part of this world, and therfore we are part of a physical struggle..All of mankind suffer physical pain.

We suffer loss, we can be in anguish, these are things expereinced by everyone.

How then does God judge his elect here and now? I have experienced this judgement, as i know some of you have.

We struggle, and ultimatley we are consumed by His fire.
The experience is bitter, and the torment is real, It is the best way i can describe it. It is however, very different than the physical struggles we endure everday.


Peace

Chris R

[blakparty]

Hillsbororiver,
    That story about Joe that you found in almost like a mirror to me.  That touch me.  It is God who I praise because of this forum and people like yourself.  I am always encourage when I come to this forum.  I might not respond all the time but it is great to see what like minded saints can do to comfort one another.  It is God's Holy Spirit that live in each and every one of us to keep all of us on one accord.  I thank God for His Judgement now and I find myself comforted because He is doing this.  God Bless to all and once again thank you, Hillsbororiver for that story, Rob.

[rk12201960]

Proverbs 20:30
Blows that hurt cleanse away evil,
As do stripes the inner depths of the heart.

Matthew 10:36, 37, 38
"and a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'
37) "He who loves father or mother more than ME is not worthy of Me. and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38) "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.

This is part of the Fire of Judgement on Gods house as we speak, and is what God desires.

Randy

[rk12201960]

Follow up.

First the physical,
Spouse, children, father, mother, brother and sister.

Then the Spiritual,
Church from which you've came.
Beliefs on what you believe.

Gods sword cuts deep to the very soul of man.

Do I have to suffer both?

"Its all ONE."

Thank you my Lord