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[okjohnson]

Hi

Thought this might lighten up your day.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,272938,00.html


   Orlando

[gmik]

OMG   I read that whole dang thing.   

I may have to read it again.  My mind is tripping out!!!!!!!

A FRUIT FLY !!!!!!!!

[Deborah-Leigh]

Naah! They haven't a clue

They don't know that the missing link is Jesus Christ!...from beast to image of God....Yes!... only can be accomplished through Christ amd because of HIM and not His creatures nor His creation! ...

That was funny though...fruit flys....... ...prove free will.... ...what next?

Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Here's one for you all

God has designed and created grass. He has designed it so that when green (alive) it can bend and flex to outside influences. Which of course it does. We know also that God has designed the plant to slowly break down over time; it will dry, droop, and slowly break down; returning once more to the ground from which it came.

Here's the question. Seeing how a living blade of grass will bow to outside forces, ie Wind. Is it free to do so? Ah....but many will occur that the plant is only free to blow in the same direction as the wind, so No! it is not free. Many may then take the stand that the blade of grass can only bend accoding to the direction of the wind, which of course is correct. The blade of grass is encapable of resisting the very laws of nature that God designed it to cope with.

But here is the cavet; if it "cannot" resist, then it's only choice is to conform. Is it not then "free" to do so? Did not our Super Intelligent and Grand Designer create such a blade of grass in such a manner, that it is "free" to conform. Even in death.

Does God control every one of the thosands or millions of cells in a single grass blade, in such a manner that every cell, knows when to move a little when a droplet of water lands on it. Does he also tell a cell when to feed itself, when to divide and the ultimate charateristic, when to begin to consume itself in order to prolong the life of the parent. (the grass plant)

Does God have 999,999,999,999,999,999 to the power of 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 interfaces with every living plant cell on our Earth? Or is he the ultimate designer, creating such cells to conform to given restraints (all) or lack of.
 
So when the wind blows, the grass reacts just as it was designed to do. The Spirit of Life that is in every cell, gives life, thus enabling the reaction. Not controlling it.

Is it so different to imagine that God could not also grant the same condtions in insects and other small rodents. These animals have NO restrictions, preventing them from reacting to certain stimuli, but they CANNOT react outside their imposed limitations; therefore, they are free to act. How could they not be. As for such animals reacting when there is no outside stimuli, surely this is a design feature to. Many programmers of computer software enforce a timeout sequece if a key is not pressed in a certain amount of time.

I am not sure God makes us act in certain ways, by controlling our cells, muscles and neurons; rather, is it not more plausible and more complimentary to Him, that we act according to our individula design; from which we are "free" to act. Free in the same manner as Computer program. A programmer will "know" how the program will act under any use, for he designed and created it. God however is better than this. He knows, when, where, who, why and what.

How, because he designed it that way.   

Granted, this is a little long, but I do not see why God would have to control anything at the cell level or smaller. Simply because, if HE is the designer and creator we give him credit for, why would HE need too. 

Oh, nothing can live "free" of God's Spirit, the Spirit of life. God granteth and God taketh away, in his time. Not ours.

Just my thoughts

Love in Christ to all my spiritual brothers and sisters,

Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm

[Ray Replies]

Dear Grace:

Your feelings and thoughts are not unusual.  Many people who come into a knowledge of the Truth [Jesus] have a real battle on their hands for some time.

YES, God is in control of EVERYTHING--EVERY THING!!!

Consider the alternative of this fact. God IS NOT IN CONTROL OF ANYTHING!!! Would that make you happier? Of course not.  It's just that we want to place God where WE THINK HE SHOULD FIT INTO OUR FRAME OF THINKING.

Either God created His own ENEMY (Satan), or Satan created HIMSELF and God was helpless to stop him and has been loosing out to Satan by a ratio of ten to one for the past so many thousands of years. This is what Christendom teaches. This is NOT what the Scriptures teach.

By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet.  But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do we have trouble believing all these Scriptures?

You ask why Christ should die for the sins of humanity which were known and brought about by God Himself? I would as you of what purpose would be Christ's crucifixion if it saved no one except those who somehow came to Christ by their own free will ASIDE from any "drawing of the Father"? 

The problem is, Grace, that we have been so brainwashed by the pagan and heretical theories of carnal-minded men that it is difficult to believe and rejoice in the plain, simple, and yet marvelously profound truths of God's Perfect Plan for the Salvation of all Mankind!

Meditate on this theme for a couple of years, Grace, and it will all become very clear--trust me, it will!

Sincerely,

Ray


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[In response to a lengthy email about evolution, Ray Responds]

Charles Darwin had a personal purpose for trying to find an explanation for the creation with a Creator. It was almost a "vendetta" if you will. He despised the evil teachings of Christendom (as do I), believing what is taught by Christendom really IS the religion of the Scriptures. BOTH his theories were wrong!

That there is "evolution" going on in biology as well as in industry is not in question, not with me at least. It is EASY to see the evolution of the dog as well as the automobile. I believe that all honest thinking people can agree on that. The real philosophical question, however, is WHAT DOES IT PROVE?

So in a broader discussion of "evolution," the origin of the species DOES come to mind, and so how does TRUE biological science deal with this question?  Facts of biological science are not always easy to use in either projections for the future or explanations for the past. If the percentage of change in mans' height the past fifty years were run backward, it would be but a few thousands years that man would have had to been no taller than an ant. Project the same percentage of change into the future, and in only a few thousand years the average man will be as tall as skyscrapers! So what is the TRUE application of the fact that man has increased in height dramatically in the past fifty years? Does it in any way prove that God did not create the universe, earth, and man upon it?

Sincerely,

Ray

[YellowStone]

Arcturus, I guess that was in response to me 

I have no problem with this. Of course God is in control of everything. I am talking of how.

And please know that I am not saying I am correct, just exploring. That is all.

For example, the following Scriptures point out that God had planned what was to happen, well in advance. In advance of creation even.

Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 

Rom 11:2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah-how he appealed to God against Israel:  

So is God like mere man, plans something in advance and then has to ensure that everything that needs to happen, happens so that the plan does evenuate into reality. This is of course not out of the question. Although, many "discoveries" / inventions happen in this world dues to accident and not careful panning. I would not think God operates on this premise

Alternatively, would it not be possible that God, being the "Master Controller" as he is, simply say's this is how it is going to be, thus he does not have to ENSURE anything. It is ensured simply because He willed it eons ago.

Once again, there is nothing that is free of God in this universe. He Holds everything to gether.

NOTHING upon NOTHING acts outside the will of God.

Your brother in Christ,
Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."

So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"

To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

[YellowStone]

Arcturus, once again I can only assume you are responding to me. 

Granted it is a little hard to do what Paul subscribes; however, a greeting to whom ever you are responding too is helpful, and Scriptual

1Pe 5:14 Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ.  

You ask: To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

So why can no one resist God's purpose? Because, that CAN"T

If by resisting God, does that mean that God has momentarily lost control?    Of course not!  Man can only "seemingly" resist God's purpose, if it is God's purpose that he can. Therefore, the man is not resisting at all.

God is always in control. 

But, who has acted, stepped or even thought anything outside of God's will or purpose? NO ONE. Oh, they may think thay have and they might also believe that they are free to do so, but who are they kidding? Themselves, for God plainly instructs:

  Phil. 2:13 For it is God [who? ‘GOD’] which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure

Ray backs this up when he says: "Since God says we cannot obey Him with our natural mind [our own God-given will], and yet we have much Scriptural proof that God does cause men to do what He wants, then we also have proof that God does go against man’s will, and He does it often."

This is why it is not up to man to even direct his steps. Man may think it is, but it is not.

Jer 10:23 I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.

Can a man resist God by choosing not to drop a ball when and where it is God's purpose to do so. Can man, even by some action, delay dropping the ball by a second.

Not a chance. 

Love to you Arcturus,

Your brother in Christ,
Darren

[pylady]

Hi Darren,

What you said about the blade of grass or the insect being "free" to act within its boundaries or limitations is interesting.  I think what you are saying is that perhaps God does not need to micromanage our every movement and thought because He designed us so perfectly that He knows exactly how we will think and act and react constantly.

The idea of this being free action however - I think we have to look at it from two perspectives.  From our perspective we think we are making our own choices and make them "freely".  But from God's perspective, which of course, is the true perspective, He is always in control, whether it be from causes He has put into being, or from direct intervention, perhaps that is what you are questioning?  But, the point being, the freedom we feel from our perspective is only an illusion.  A good illusion though, a merciful illusion, since none of us would want to feel like a puppet!

That computer, if it had feelings, might feel "free" to react to our command , but really can only react the way it has been designed and programmed.  It really isn't free to think for itself.  It could appear that it was thinking for itself if it had been programmed to look at a problem from more than one angle, or to reach a conclusion from looking at different data, but that too is programmed.  And the conclusion it reached is is already preprogrammed, but it is just not reached yet.    Just like us!

If I understand you correctly you're not questioning that we do not have free will, but just looking at how God is making everthing work within His purpose?

If i am misunderstanding you I apologize.

With Christian love,

                Cindy

[YellowStone]

Cindy, What a wonderful response 

You said it better than I did! 

You wrote:  I think what you are saying is that perhaps God does not need to micromanage our every movement and thought because He designed us so perfectly that He knows exactly how we will think and act and react constantly.

How does he know?

Because everything responds to God's purpose. It is "FREE" to do so, because NOTHING in this world or the next will prevent us.

Even Satan, cannot act outside the constraints imposed by God. I do NOT believe God needs to micromanage anything. That's for us, because no we have so LITTLE control of anything 

Thanks for your thoughtful response,

With love in Christ,
Darren

[kudeta]

Darren,

Matthew 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.
Matthew 10:30  And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Matthew 10:31  So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

I think these verses speak not only to fact of the Sovereignty of God, as Arcturus' quotes from Ray are doing, but also to the question of "how" that you are asking.

The attention to every sparrow on earth and the hairs on every person's head does discuss His control in terms of micromanagement, rather than just the setting up the constraints of natural law.  This seems to point directly at the "999,999,999,999,999,999 to the power of 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999 interfaces" you asked about.

blessings,
 - John

[YellowStone]

Hi John,

Please do not think that I do not fully realize that our God knows each of the 1,000,000's of atoms in each grain of sand in the universe. He designed and created them didn't HE? HE also has a purpose for everything, so how could a sparrow fall out of the sky without him knowing? 

I think we both agree that God willed it in advance. How then could it not fall, does he really have to MAKE it fall.     

How come man can design and manufacture an automobile and "know" that as long it is is not abused, that it "will" most likely perform as designed for many years, without the need of the designer sitting in the car, making sure that the pistons fire on time and that the wheels turn at the right speed when the car moves and of cause ensuring that every other part does it's job? This is pure insanity, even to mere human designers. 

Yet, what am failing to understand, is the push back regarding God being able to do the same; albeit on a much grander scale 

Many seem to think that God can create atoms, cells, even hair and know each by name or ID# and yet NOT KNOW that each will perform EXACTLY according to HIS design. God created man so well, that man (carnal) doesn't even realize that he was created. God can do this and you will most likely agree that it is true, yet some still maintain that God cannot design a blade of grass or a strand of hair to wave in the wind, without "making" each cell move, exactly when and where every 1,000th of second of every day. 

God is after all the Master / Grand / Supreme Designer, is HE not? 

Oh, there is really no such thing as "constraints of natural law"  What there is, is constraints imposed by design, God's design.

I hope I did not offend, it is late, so please forgive me if I did

In Christ our Saviour,

Darren

[mari_et_pere]

This has turned into a fascinating thread! I've been thinking about this type of stuff lately.

You wrote:  I think what you are saying is that perhaps God does not need to micromanage our every movement and thought because He designed us so perfectly that He knows exactly how we will think and act and react constantly.

I don't think He micromanages everything we do. Does it really matter to Him if we eat the red M & M or the blue M & M?

Matthew 10:29  Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.
Matthew 10:30  And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Matthew 10:31  So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

God knows the numbers of hairs on my head, but does that mean He controls the hairs on my head? When I step out of the shower does it matter which way it's falling. (Speaking of falling hair, yikes He has the number of MY hairs dwindling!)

I'm not trying to take away from God in any way, shape or form. I just think that maybe some things are microcosmic enough to not need God's hand to guide it. That's not to say He doesn't already know the outcome of the big decision of the blue or red M&M, only that it doesn't matter which one is first.

Am I off base? Did my rambling lose ya? I get lost once in a while. 

Matt

[pylady]

Hi everyone,

It is interesting to think and wonder about how God carries out His purpose and His will in our lives.  But, I think for now it is only conjecture on our part.

Romans11:34  "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His
                     counselor?"

Someday He will give us the answer to these questions, and we will all be totally amazed at His wisdom and power.  And I know I will probably feel like a fool at how totally ignorant I have been.    But meanwhile my mind just goes on and on thinking about these things. 

I'm glad to know there are others out there who think about these things too!

Right now I'm waiting anxiously, anxiously, anxiously for news of what was taught at the conference, and to hear everyone arrived home safely.


Everyone have a good day.

With Christian love,

             Cindy

[mari_et_pere]

Indeed it is just conjecture on our parts. In fact, it really doesn't matter. All that really matters is that we know He's in control and His will is what will play out in our lives. I can picture after all is said and done, and we're in His presence, we won't even be able to think! We'll be so amazed at how magnificent He is, and how much He knows (He knows all ya know) and we'll just be blown away, utterly speachless, terrified at his glory. We can't even imagine how it will be. How stupid and small will I feel (and be) in His presence?

Matt

[okjohnson]

Actually, Free Will has all kinds of philisophical positions (see the link I have at the end ). I have wrestled with this for a while after reading what Ray  wrote, and continue to be interested. I have settled for a simplification of it by accepting that we are given a very large number of caused choices as a result of God's Creation.

Most Scientests, and people, define and believe the ability to make a choice is free will , whereas free will is actually to bring about the cause and to make available the choice, which is something that only God can do.

If you really want to wipe out your mind, check out this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will .

  Orlando

[mari_et_pere]

Wow! 
I clicked that link. I read it. I have no idea what I read. Woah. 
I uh.......yeah I think I'll stick with the good ol' B-I-B-L-E. 

Matt

[YellowStone]

Orlando,

Thanks for your response. I will certainly check it out.

I am in no way taking anything from our God, Father and Creator, and I would ask that all who read the following, do so with an open heart and their mind on Christ. I would ask also that one keep in mind, if you think that I am grossly wrong, that you remember by your own analogy, these are not my thoughts but God's. Then ask why they were written.

Orlando, you wrote: 

Most Scientists, and people, define and believe the ability to make a choice is free will , whereas free will is actually to bring about the cause and to make available the choice, which is something that only God can do.

If I understand you correctly, you mean that man cannot cause a bag of M&M's to appear by mere thought, to make available the "choice" that Matt spoke of. I agree one hundred percent! Taking this a little further, life is full of forks, crossroads and dead-ends. The simple choice of deciding whether or not to choose a red or blue M&M is 99.9% (I'm guessing) a dead-end progression. Simply because if a red one was chosen over a blue, the direction of life is not changed and for all sense and purposes, the act is irrelevant.

Another way of looking at it is determining the spiritual significance of eating M&M's? Should we categorize by color, weight, or alternate colors or set sequences. Perhaps we should segregate all green M&M's and bury them.

There is much that man in all his wisdom cannot do. For example man cannot of his own accord, come to Christ. Neither can man save himself.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.  

Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 

1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Man is 100% reliant on God for his salvation; however, is man justified by giving up and doing nothing? Why not? If one does, is he not doing what God made him do? Really?

1Ti 2:3  For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
 
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth
 
Sounds reasonable does it not Christ will save all, and all will understand the truth one day.

But, let's look at what is to happen in the mean time......

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

The last days will be perilous! Is it because God is making them so, or is it because He knows they will so be due to the sinful nature of man. The very nature He designed and created, for the fulfillment of His purpose?

2Ti 3:2  For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2Ti 3:3  Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

2Ti 3:4  Traitors, heady, high minded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

2Ti 3:5  Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2Ti 3:6  For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

Is the above a result of molecular manipulation of every cell in very organism in the world, or is it a result of the evil that God created for this VERY purpose?

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. 

Mankind will try to make sense of it all, they will reason this and that and ponder greatly, but, they are ......

2Ti 3:7  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Why can they not come to the truth? Because it is not Gods plan for them to do so. Is it conceivable that carnal man is running around in a quagmire of destruction, foolishly thinking of their own accord that they are in some way responsible for their life.

So, then, why were the Scriptures written? Certainly, there was much hidden in parables, but not everything.

Mat 7:12  Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Mat 7:13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mat 7:14  Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Mat 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

The above Scripture is pretty self explanatory and most people of the world can see that the Good Life, Fast cars, Money, cheap friends, drugs, etc offer little satisfaction and no lasting value. Why else is the world insistently searching for answers to a question they do not fully understand? "What am I missing.....there must be more than this!!

Why is man told to pray?

Phl 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 

Could it be for our instruction, that it is something we are "free" to comply with or ignore. It matters little in the grand scheme of things if carnal man does or does not, because God does the dragging and his ultimate purpose will be fulfilled.

In closing, I would like to comment on the following two Scriptures.

Jer 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man [is] not in himself: [it is] not in man that walketh to direct his steps. 

Luk 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?  

Let us look past the physical significance of what they may mean, but instead look at the spiritual. We know full well that no matter how HARD we try to know God and learn of him, no matter where we go, or how many places we visit; our steps will NEVER lead us to him. In short, we cannot direct our steps to take us where we want to spiritually go. God does this, we do not.

Let us now look at spiritual thought. So many times have I been bogged down for days with something that just not fit right; only to have the answer appear clear and sharp as if by magic. I am sure, most will understand this completely. The answers were given me, I did not earn, phantom or create them. On my own, my thoughts are nothing.

Paul knew full well, from whence his redemption came. It came from God, and not from him.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.

God knows the sinful ways of man; does he need to make man sin to justify himself? To prove that he did indeed create evil? I think not.

Did not God create the most beautiful planet known to man, the one that we call home as a testimant to himself?

The Scriptures say that he did.

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

There are many searching for God, many praying daily, yet who knows the mind of God. He will bring all to him in his time.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.  

God knows when, and it is irrelevant what we think or not think, what we choose or not choose, we will NEVER thwart God's plan, purpose or will.

Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I do believe strongly that nothing is taken away from God by giving man freedom to think, act and walk. Actually, by allowing man the illusion of freedom, and then sometimes quite suddenly or other times very painfully, begin revealing the truth is a greater testament to his love and Sovereignty than being the Master Micromanager.

He does not need to micromanage anything, He is God!! I would think that God cares much more about our spiritual life and growth than our physical, for one way or another; man will come to a knowledge of the truth.

God knows all.

Love to all in Christ,
Darren

[Redbird]

While reading.....a great song was playing in the background,

Butterflies....Are Free to Fly 

Somehow, it just seemed appropriate for this thread  

Lisa

[mari_et_pere]

LOL Lisa.
My background music at the moment is my little boy's Wiggles. 

Matt