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fruit flies have free will
YellowStone:
Arcturus, I guess that was in response to me :)
I have no problem with this. Of course God is in control of everything. :) I am talking of how.
And please know that I am not saying I am correct, just exploring. That is all.
For example, the following Scriptures point out that God had planned what was to happen, well in advance. In advance of creation even.
Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 11:2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah-how he appealed to God against Israel:
So is God like mere man, plans something in advance and then has to ensure that everything that needs to happen, happens so that the plan does evenuate into reality. This is of course not out of the question. Although, many "discoveries" / inventions happen in this world dues to accident and not careful panning. I would not think God operates on this premise :)
Alternatively, would it not be possible that God, being the "Master Controller" as he is, simply say's this is how it is going to be, thus he does not have to ENSURE anything. It is ensured simply because He willed it eons ago.
Once again, there is nothing that is free of God in this universe. He Holds everything to gether.
NOTHING upon NOTHING acts outside the will of God.
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
Deborah-Leigh:
http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html
First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."
So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"
To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!
YellowStone:
Arcturus, once again I can only assume you are responding to me. :)
Granted it is a little hard to do what Paul subscribes; however, a greeting to whom ever you are responding too is helpful, and Scriptual :)
1Pe 5:14 Greet one another with a kiss of love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ.
You ask: To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!
So why can no one resist God's purpose? Because, that CAN"T :)
If by resisting God, does that mean that God has momentarily lost control? ;D Of course not! Man can only "seemingly" resist God's purpose, if it is God's purpose that he can. Therefore, the man is not resisting at all. ;)
God is always in control. :)
But, who has acted, stepped or even thought anything outside of God's will or purpose? NO ONE. Oh, they may think thay have and they might also believe that they are free to do so, but who are they kidding? Themselves, for God plainly instructs:
Phil. 2:13 For it is God [who? ‘GOD’] which works in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure
Ray backs this up when he says: "Since God says we cannot obey Him with our natural mind [our own God-given will], and yet we have much Scriptural proof that God does cause men to do what He wants, then we also have proof that God does go against man’s will, and He does it often."
This is why it is not up to man to even direct his steps. Man may think it is, but it is not. :)
Jer 10:23 I know, O Lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.
Can a man resist God by choosing not to drop a ball when and where it is God's purpose to do so. Can man, even by some action, delay dropping the ball by a second.
Not a chance. ;D
Love to you Arcturus,
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
pylady:
Hi Darren,
What you said about the blade of grass or the insect being "free" to act within its boundaries or limitations is interesting. I think what you are saying is that perhaps God does not need to micromanage our every movement and thought because He designed us so perfectly that He knows exactly how we will think and act and react constantly.
The idea of this being free action however - I think we have to look at it from two perspectives. From our perspective we think we are making our own choices and make them "freely". But from God's perspective, which of course, is the true perspective, He is always in control, whether it be from causes He has put into being, or from direct intervention, perhaps that is what you are questioning? But, the point being, the freedom we feel from our perspective is only an illusion. A good illusion though, a merciful illusion, since none of us would want to feel like a puppet!
That computer, if it had feelings, might feel "free" to react to our command , but really can only react the way it has been designed and programmed. It really isn't free to think for itself. It could appear that it was thinking for itself if it had been programmed to look at a problem from more than one angle, or to reach a conclusion from looking at different data, but that too is programmed. And the conclusion it reached is is already preprogrammed, but it is just not reached yet. Just like us!
If I understand you correctly you're not questioning that we do not have free will, but just looking at how God is making everthing work within His purpose?
If i am misunderstanding you I apologize.
With Christian love,
Cindy
YellowStone:
Cindy, What a wonderful response :)
You said it better than I did! :D
You wrote: I think what you are saying is that perhaps God does not need to micromanage our every movement and thought because He designed us so perfectly that He knows exactly how we will think and act and react constantly.
How does he know? :)
Because everything responds to God's purpose. It is "FREE" to do so, because NOTHING in this world or the next will prevent us.
Even Satan, cannot act outside the constraints imposed by God. I do NOT believe God needs to micromanage anything. That's for us, because no we have so LITTLE control of anything ;D
Thanks for your thoughtful response,
With love in Christ,
Darren
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