bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Help with Luke12:45-48  (Read 2191 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

berniekruger

  • Guest
Help with Luke12:45-48
« on: May 17, 2007, 04:52:48 PM »

Quote
Luk 12:45  But if that servant shall say in his heart: My Lord is long a coming; and shall begin to strike the men-servants and maid-servants, and to eat and to drink and be drunk:
Luk 12:46  The lord of that servant will come in the day that he hopeth not, and at the hour that he knoweth not: and shall separate him and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers.
Luk 12:47  And that servant, who knew the will of his lord and prepared not himself and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luk 12:48  But he that knew not and did things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

Verse 46 states he will be separated (cut-off, cut in two)  and appointed his portion with unbelievers.

This sounds like damnation.

In 47 the servant knew (viz. knew the rules but was not prepared) and was punished (many stripes)

In 48 the servant didn't know but received a lighter punishment.

Is this now to say, If we know and decide to "do our own thing" we can be cut off?

And if we know and are not prepared we will only receive a severe punishment?

Its all a bit confusing.

Luv to all
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Help with Luke12:45-48
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2007, 06:08:29 PM »

Hi berniekruger,

Luk 12:45  But if that servant says in his heart, My lord delays his coming, and shall begin to beat the male servants and women servants, and to eat and drink and to be drunk,
Luk 12:46  the lord of that servant will come in a day when he does not expect, and at an hour when he does not know. And he will cut him apart, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

So the servant being spoken of here would be the elect.
In verse 45 you have the servant/elect who begins 'to beat' his fellow servants/elect, or maybe to afflict and cause trouble among the brethren.  'To be drunk' is not a good thing, it shows excesses.

Rom 16:17  "And I exhort you, brothers, to watch those making divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them."

Verse 46 says the Lord comes and the servant does not expect Him, because he has not been watching. 

Mar 13:36  "lest He come suddenly and find you sleeping.
v. 37  And what I say to you, I say to all. Watch."

1Th 5:6  "so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober."

Verse 46 also is speaking of the return of Christ and the unfaithful servant will not be in the first resurrection, but will be raised to judgment with the rest of the world.

Luk 12:47  And that servant who knew his lord's will and did not prepare, nor did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

This is the same servant that was beating his brethren, getting drunk and not watching.  His purging is going to be severe, many stripes, because of all he has to repent of.

Luk 12:48  But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

I think this 'not knowing' person has never had his eyes open to the truth, because of his ignorance and not intentionally defying the truth, he has less to be purged, few stripes.
As the last part of this verse indicates, if you are given much and I think this includes physical blessing as well as knowledge of the truth, he/she will have to answer to how he used what was given him.

Luk 12:49  I have come to send fire on the earth. And what will I do if it is already kindled?

This fire is judgment for the world in the white throne judgment and now for those few who are chosen.

Hope this is understandable  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 12:44:08 AM by Kat »
Logged

Joey Porter

  • Guest
Re: Help with Luke12:45-48
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2007, 12:13:24 AM »

I actually believe this is one of the strongest passages in the bible that speaks against eternal damnation.  In verse 48 where it speaks of being beaten with few stripes - If you look at the Greek wording used there, it could literally mean "of time: short."

So he is making a clear contrast here between degrees of finite punishment.  He doesn't say that the first servant will be beaten with infinite blows.  And if the punishment was eternal, it would be infinite blows.  But he is showing differences in severity and/or length of punishment.
Logged

CDJ

  • Guest
Re: Help with Luke12:45-48
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2007, 02:15:53 AM »

Morning Bernie, hope you're well :-)

Once you cover all the current parts in the Lake of Fire Series, I believe most of these 'confusing' bits will make alot of sense - hence, that's why you'll see that people here at BT speak parallel to each other - 1 Truth, 1 Spirit :-) There's a few words and principals that need to be understood, which makes sense to these previously confusing bits. They're confusing, because of misunderstanding/mistranslation of words like damnation, destruction, love, hell, forever, everlasting, chastisement, lucifer, lost (also translated destruction), etc, etc...

Kat brought it across well. If you've been entrusted with much, not by your own choice, but by Him, the punishment/chastisement will be more severe if you waste it, as opposed to those who do not believe - that is the justice of the Lord. The parable of the talents parallels to this.

Spot on, Joey - it's against eternal damnation. Check out the Greek Septuagint (200BC) at Jonah 2:6 - it translates olam as aionios, and english and other languages translate it as meaning forever/everlasting (as we all know), yet Jonah was in the belly of the fish only 3 days and nights...

Walk strong :-)

PS: Bernie, whose your team this weekend? :-) Sharks or Bulls?

« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 02:22:18 AM by CDJ »
Logged

berniekruger

  • Guest
Re: Help with Luke12:45-48
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2007, 10:39:52 AM »

CDJ
Divided on this, me Bulls, Son Sharks

For of those who do not know what this means, there is a rugby final Saturday called the super 14 teams from SA, Aus and NZ and this is the 1st time the final has been on SA turf.

Back to the discussion.  Thanks for the replies.  I can relate to the servant that knew and did was not prepared and the one who didn't know but the 1st example of this parable, the guy completely loses it and is similar to someone who comes to faith, gets to know the HS and God, then totally rejects viz the unpardonable sin and it says:-

shall separate him and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers.

Sounds like this is finite!

As I mentioned Luke's writing are by comparison to the other gospels harder to understand.  Whether the portion with unbelievers is "hell", eternal damnation, whatever; it doesn't say.  Other translations like this

(BBE)  The lord of that servant will come at a time when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not ready for him, and he will have him cut in two and will give him his part in the fate of those who have no faith;

What I am trying to see here, this guy "falls away", "rejects his salvation", "Denies God after knowing him" etc. and from this I see a separation from God

Here are all the translations I have

(GNB)  then the master will come back one day when the servant does not expect him and at a time he does not know. The master will cut him in pieces and make him share the fate of the disobedient.

(GW)  His master will return at an unexpected time. Then his master will punish him severely and assign him a place with unfaithful people.

(ISV)  the master of that servant will come on a day when he doesn't expect him and at an hour that he doesn't know. Then his master will punish him severely and assign him a place with unfaithful people.

(KJV)  The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

(LITV)  the Lord of that slave will come in the day in which he does not expect, and in an hour which he does not know. And He will cut him apart and will put his portion with the unbelievers.

(MKJV)  the lord of that servant will come in a day when he does not expect, and at an hour when he does not know. And he will cut him apart, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

(WEB)  then the lord of that servant will come in a day when he isn't expecting him, and in an hour that he doesn't know, and will cut him in two, and place his portion with the unfaithful. 

(Webster)  The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

(WNT)  that servant's Master will come on a day when he is not expecting Him and at an hour that he knows not of, and will punish him severely, and make him share the lot of the unfaithful.

(YLT)  the lord of that servant will come in a day in which he doth not look for him , and in an hour that he doth not know, and will cut him off, and his portion with the unfaithful he will appoint.

Don't know if I am making sense ???
Logged

Kat

  • Guest
Re: Help with Luke12:45-48
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2007, 11:37:58 AM »


Hi Bernie,

Here is what I am seeing on this.

Luk 12:46  the lord of that servant will come in a day when he does not expect, and at an hour when he does not know. And he will cut him apart, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. (MKJV)

We can see that this is talking about the Lord or Christ 'will come' to this servant.  Now this must be the return of Christ to earth to reign and rule, that is when He will come to all, it will be the same event for all people, whether after death or for those still living.  He will return to judge the world/unbelievers and all will give account.

Mat 16:27  For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward each one according to his works.

The first resurrection has immediately preceded this judgment, where the saints/believers will have received their reward of the kingdom.
All others not in the first resurrection are those that were not given the Holy Spirit and were not judge and made ready.  Their judgment has come, this is the white throne judgment/second death, where all, this is the unbelievers, will be cast into the Lake of fire.

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them...
Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.
Rev 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them.
v. 12  And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
v. 13  And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.
v. 14  And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
v. 15  And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

Back to Luke, it says "will cut him apart"  I think Strongs shows this to mean he is in for a severe purging by means of the Lake of fire. 

Strong's
G1371
dichotomeō
-to bisect, that is, (by extension) to flog severely: - cut asunder (in sunder).

So because he was not faithful to the end, he ended up being "appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." 

Luke 21:34  "But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.
v. 35  For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
v. 36  Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

I hope this is in line with what you were looking for  :)

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Logged

CDJ

  • Guest
Re: Help with Luke12:45-48
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2007, 12:03:51 PM »

The Unpardonable Sin

Hi Bernie :-)

Again I'd like to point out, to go through the Lake of Fire Series - once you start you can't stop - there's SO much info, and someone even provided a download for e-sword, regarding the Lake of Fire Series, so that the reader can read the Word, while going through the studies.

'Unpardonable Sin' and 'Portion' gets all explained, and afterwards you can read over verses like these, and understand what this portion is.

I see one translation translates it "severe punishment", which isn't literally correct BUT, no-one said that the Lake of Fire is going to be a picnic...

The other day someone emailed Ray with the title "I can murder", just because they read "hell doesn't exist". That person doesn't understand the Lake of Fire very well... It will be severe, but not an everlasting torture - just because it won't be everlasting, doesn't mean the cleansing/chastisement should be taken lightly...


Anyway, keep on digging Bernie :-) things become crystal clear - all of us keeps on learning and learning - sometimes it feels like no words want to come out, because ALL of them wants to jump out at once, because I'll honestly talk someone's ear off :-) I spoke to one of my assistants at work, because I knew she was involved in church and camps and so forth, but she didn't know that I read Bible. She asked me once before if I read Bible and I replied "Sometimes" and smiled.

Well, the other day she mentioned something and I just started talking and talking and talking and talking and after an hour when I said, "Ok, I'm finished for now" she replied with big eyes "WOW!! You must come speak at my church!" Today a friend of mine emailed me a cute little Powerpoint Presentation about thanking God for everything everyday, and it was really touching, but I couldn't help thinking by myself, that the people who write those, out of the goodness of their hearts, still believe that our Loving Father will destroy all our friends, families, people who have never heard, etc, etc. forever and ever while the 'good' ones lay on green grass and look at fluffy clouds...

I wrote back to her and voiced myself and told her sternly that she must never ever (well, age-during) believe again that God would destroy people forever, and that I'll teach her how to read Bible properly, without the big confusing messy words that's out there.

'Christains' are hungry for the Truth, but the wool gets pulled over their eyes, by people who's also got wool over their eyes, and without a degree in this and that, they won't listen to anybody and will keep on arguing amongst themselves, like the NG Church is currently going through in SA.

For us to know the Truth, and keep our lamp under a bucket, isn't the way to go, and therefore would be judged more severely and go through the Lake of Fire...

Most would agree here on BT, that sometimes the Word just gushes out like a fountain, because it's the GOOD NEWS.

I'm still an infant, Bernie, although I can't stop talking, but I highly recommend covering the Lake of Fire Series - it took me a month, but I'm going to go through it again...

Walk strong in our Christ :-) Thy will be done... :-)


PS: Can't even think of rugby now... it's like all those things are being pushed aside... :-)


Logged

berniekruger

  • Guest
Re: Help with Luke12:45-48
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2007, 01:04:18 PM »

I am going though it.

I've stopped for awhile as I have tried to cram everything in one week and its a mental overload, gone through about 50% sofar.

Luv to all

Logged

seminole

  • Guest
Re: Help with Luke12:45-48
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2007, 02:07:58 PM »

This is pretty simple minded but I think the bottom line is that we all must do whatever it is that God has put us to do. Try not to be concerned with what others may say about it and just have peace knowing that you are trying, asmuch as you can and with the help of God, to please the heavenly Father.
Seminole
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.095 seconds with 24 queries.