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[mrsnacks]

I ask a fellow church goer that question. She couldn't come up with one truth.
She tried though. She said that God is love. God is merciful.God is forgiving.  I then said that Christendom of today  says these things, but it speaks in self contradictions.

It is like if I were to say - I can't type a word in English - you would say you just did. They say that God is love and merciful ,but then they have a God who created hell and would put billions of beings He created in there for eternity torturing them with no hope of ever getting out. Are these the actions of a merciful, loving, and forgiving God ? If I were found out by the police to have tortured and locked up one person in a basement- I would be thrown in prison and would I be a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize or some kind of humanitarian award ?  Yet when their God does this to billions it is fine. Does that make sense ?

So my question here is if there is any truth that Christendom teaches which is not contradictory let me know. They got to have something right.

[chav]

Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?

this statement seems a bit like an oxymoron to me

Can a polluted stream produce clear water ?

cheers

Dave UK

[seminole]

I think what is right is Jesus dying for our sins. His mercy and grace on us all. Helping others no matter what and basically treating others like you wanted to be treated. I don't think all churches are like this but the one I go to is.  I think too it is a great time set aside for singing praise to God and learning about the walk on this earth that Jesus walked and how we should try to do the same. Hope this is not offensive. I am kind of afraid of mentioning church stuff here because I know it is a big issue.
Seminole

[mrsnacks]

Clever Chav.

[Craig]

I am kind of afraid of mentioning church stuff here because I know it is a big issue.

Seminole, don't worry about the church stuff.  Many on this forum have yet to be called out.  Yes, Ray teaches that the church is the harlot/babylon, but that does not make the people there, enemies.  Those who have left the church understand it all to well, you can't say anything we don't already know.

Study deeply into the Word and pray for guidance, and if you are called out then be ready to answer.

Blessing
Craig

[mrsnacks]

I think what is right is Jesus dying for our sins. His mercy and grace on us all. Helping others no matter what and basically treating others like you wanted to be treated. I don't think all churches are like this but the one I go to is.  I think too it is a great time set aside for singing praise to God and learning about the walk on this earth that Jesus walked and how we should try to do the same. Hope this is not offensive. I am kind of afraid of mentioning church stuff here because I know it is a big issue.
Seminole

--------------------------------

Thanks for responding. I think yes they will say Jesus died for all of our sins. But if billions will not be saved in the end, but will spend eternity in hell with no hope of getting out while a few end up floating in clouds in heaven watching the events below, then to me what difference does it make to the billions that Jesus died for the sins of the world. It's meaningless.

His mercy and grace on us all you say. Will the billions say that while being made extra crispy from the heat in hell ? Is that God's mercy and grace on us all?
Then you say treating others how you want to be treated. Does Christendom really love their enemies ? Do good to those who persecute you ?   I have been kicked out of a few churches in my time for not agreeing with their doctrines and traditions of men. See what happens when they find out you don't believe in free will, hell, tithing, the set up of the modern clergy, the trinity etc. You aren't going to get love and understanding. You're going to get the boot.

You say we should try to do the same as far as the way Jesus walked etc. I have learned that the Christian life is unlivable.  Really ! I have tried along with many others and failed. It is not I who live but Christ that lives in me. We must die to the flesh. So many ( including me ) tried to live and imitate Christ by the flesh and it doesn't work. I can't and will never be like Tiger Woods on the golf course. How can I even begin to think I can be like Jesus in life. I am slowly being transformed to Christ likeness and it has everything to do with Him. When I finally gave up He took over.

Singing praises ? Do we know what we are singing about ?  Half the time when I went to the church building I didn't understand what I was singing about. How would God like it if we all sang that end of the verse in one of the hymns that  said "Blessed Trinity. " If the trinity doctrine isn't true. Just some thoughts.

[mrsnacks]

I wanted to add one thing which is very important. I now see the blindness of others. I was there and I still have my blind spots I am sure.

I feel for them. They don't know what they are doing.They really think they are right and know.  And I see it is by God's grace that I do see. And I have talked to a few that have been very receptive and open and God has and is using me and that is a blessing.  I am thankful that God is revealing His truths to me. And I in turn will share with others if they ask or seem open. God is the one that opens the eyes and ears.

[Joey Porter]

I think the mainstream church does teach some truths but they are not whole truths because they're sprinkled with error.

For instance -  The church certainly believes in the resurrection of Christ - but they don't really believe He actually died.

Many churches believe and teach that God is sovereign but also teach that man has free will.

Conversely, many believe in and preach God's sovereignty and man's lack of free will, but they also believe He has pre-ordained the majority of mankind to be tormented forever.  Yet they insist He is love.

And so forth and so on. 

[mrsnacks]

Good points made.

I look at it this way. Take rat poison for example. They say that 98 % of it's contents  are good for you and won't hurt you. It's the 2% in it that will kill you.

[jER]

I have often thought that 66.6 percent of what is taught in a church building per se, is of man, and not of the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, they wear nice sweaters made of sheep’s wool.

Could it be the church has not only lost its ability to discern truth from error, but also to discern the true sheep from the wolves?

“Man cannot comprehend the existence of error; when he is too deeply immersed in it.”

Sort of like the frog in the water.

[Bradigans]

Galatians 5:9 says - A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

This is how Satan got Eve...

[mari_et_pere]

Could it be the church has not only lost its ability to discern truth from error, but also to discern the true sheep from the wolves?

Heck yes! I can remember a time that I was attending my "non-demoninational" church, and they thought I was just absolutely ON FIRE FOR GOD. SUCH A BLESSING. A GREAT MAN OF GOD. But I wasn't any of those, really. I was totally stagnate, just like them. They don't know what they're talking about. Many of them don't even know what they believe. It makes me so sad that I can't pull my wife out of there.

Matt

[Kat]

I think the churches knowledge of Christ is very shallow.  They do have a degree of comprehension, but it is greatly limited by what the carnal mind can see.  They build their religion on their lack of knowledge, and that has produced the many churches, operated by the doctrines of men.  I was thinking it is sort of like a Christian country club.  But that is the way God caused it to be, and it is where we first hear of Christ.
It is that blindness that we all had to go through, as a part of the process to learn whatever God is teaching by that experience. 
God is only opening the eyes of a very few, for a special purpose in His plan.  God blinded the world and He is going to keep it that way, until this age ends at the return of Christ.
We don't hate the church, it's just disturbing when your eyes are opened, to see how messed up it is.  We can't change the way it is, nor can we save a single person whom God has blinded, unless He has chosen them.  We may want to look around and talk to people and see if we can witness and help them see the truth, and that may be God's means to bring them to the knowledge of the truth.  But I think if God has chosen someone, He will make sure they find the truth one way or another.  So I personally don't worry about witnessing, if God sends someone to me, it's a joy to share the truth.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[skydreamers]

We don't hate the church, it's just disturbing when your eyes are opened, to see how messed up it is.  We can't change the way it is, nor can we save a single person whom God has blinded, unless He has chosen them.  We may want to look around and talk to people and see if we can witness and help them see the truth, and that may be God's means to bring them to the knowledge of the truth.  But I think if God has chosen someone, He will make sure they find the truth one way or another.  So I personally don't worry about witnessing, if God sends someone to me, it's a joy to share the truth.

Amen to that!

Peace,
Diana

[mrsnacks]

I think the churches knowledge of Christ is very shallow.  They do have a degree of comprehension, but it is greatly limited by what the carnal mind can see.  They build their religion on their lack of knowledge, and that has produced the many churches, operated by the doctrines of men.  I was thinking it is sort of like a Christian country club.  But that is the way God caused it to be, and it is where we first here of Christ.
It is that blindness that we all had to go through, as a part of the process to learn whatever God is teaching by that experience. 

God is only opening the eyes of a very few, for a special purpose in His plan.  God blinded the world and He is going to keep it that way, until this age ends at the return of Christ.
We don't hate the church, it's just disturbing when your eyes are opened, to see how messed up it is.  We can't change the way it is, nor can we save a single person whom God has blinded, unless He has chosen them.  We may want to look around and talk to people and see if we can witness and help them see the truth, and that may be God's means to bring them to the knowledge of the truth.  But I think if God has chosen someone, He will make sure they find the truth one way or another.  So I personally don't worry about witnessing, if God sends someone to me, it's a joy to share the truth.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well said Kat.

I at one time thought the theologians had the truth. Well one doesn't get doctorate degrees in theology and philosophy unless one studies. So I went after these teachers. I took courses and had bought over a thousand books and I don't mean the pop Christian books. And I would get to a point where I thought I was getting truth and knowledge of God etc. I wanted to be smart for God so He could use me. Then I would look at my life and see that it was a mess. I was carnal and couldn't at all live the Christian life. I was a failure.I was still a slave to my passions and the flesh. But I knew a lot and spent much time accumulating knowledge and debating the skeptics and unbelievers. I was doing this all for God.

But I realized one thing. There is always someone smarter than you. And I ran into some tough skeptics.This was humbling. And all this studying was exhausting. I wasn't a person anymore but a walking texbook of facts and arguments. So I quit the knowledge thing for awhile and God showed me my lifestyle was the key. If my life didn't reflect Christ then all the knowledge don't mean a thing. If Christ wasn't real in transforming me and I had very little fruit showing in my life then what good is all this knowledge.

And in the process I learned about dying to the flesh. Christ living in me. And learned about God's love for me was not dependent on my performance. Also in the journey most of what I learned I have found to be false.You know the tune- free will, hell , and etc. Spending years learning theology and apologetics from the best professors around I have discarded. I will tell you why. Because I started to depend on my logic and arguments to win someone over. I had pride thinking I knew more than the average person and looking at people who didn't believe like I do as a potential debate. Relying on my understanding. So it was game of intellectual gymnastics. Then God showed me that it was His Spirit that opens the eyes of the blind and gives understanding. Not me. Not my arguments and skill.

So much in christendom is head knowledge. Or if not that then it's a belief relying on emotions. The truthfulness of the gospel isn't because it gives you the warm fuzzies. Did Paul ever say the gospel is true because it makes him feel good or because he  feels it's true ?

Don't get me wrong- I am not saying apologetics and all that is wrong. I know a lot of how to defend the gospel and answer objections etc. But I don't rely on that knowledge. If God brings something to my mind then so be it. But I look at people as people now. Not as someone to debate with or argue with into the Kingdom. I see a person as one who is loved by God and in the process. And the most important thing is that they see the Christ in me and not me.

[seminole]

That kind of felt like walking into hell! That is why I fear saying anything about the church. I do believe that we should do the best we can to live as Jesus did. Not to say we do it but He does it through us when we push our own human-ness out of the way. We can do nothing good but it is Jesus who can do good through us. I know what songs of praise are about where I go. I understand the words. We don't do what some call"high church". Ours is a group of mostly poor people who have been or are being delivered from alcohol, drugs and anything else you can think of. All we want to do is try to show the love of Jesus regardless of circumstances. Sorry, I can't remember the name of the person who wrote after my response, it was a terrible thing to get thrown out of your church and I am sorry you went through that. I can understand your anger. That is about all I have to say about any of this topic.
Seminole

[seminole]

forgot to say, we do believe Jesus physically died. We believe He resurrected too and hung out for a while with people but they couldn't touch Him. Then after that God sent the Comforter to be with us. That is what the Bible says. There in the Bible too it says no more tears and crying. Seems to me that if you believe in hell, you wouldn't be looking at people burning while you are in heaven. That would bring tears I think.
Seminole

[seminole]

I am interested to see the thoughts on this. Any???

[mrsnacks]

Hell would only make sense if there was an end and the purpose of it would be for the betterment of the person. It would make sense if hell was the Lake Of Fire but it isn't. The concept of hell is fear based and a demonstration of conditional love not agape love. How could anyone sit in heaven and look down on billions of people screaming their heads off in torment and shed no tears. Let's be real . Could you picture a loved one for example a parent or a spouse being tortured and feel good about it ?  A professor said in response to my question - there are infinite consequences to man's finite actions. Wow ! That just made me feel so much
better (sarcasm). How sick of an answer now that I see. I honestly can't see singing praises to a God that sends people to hell. How can Christendom sing praises ? If I were to stand up and sing praises to a Hitler or a Stalin would that be acceptable ? Of course not. That would be sick. They gave the orders to have millions tortured and killed. Yet Christendom's sings praises to a god of their making who has billions locked up and tortured forever and throws away the key and that is worse. Let me add and claims to be the Savior of all mankind.

I say this all not telling anyone here what they don't know already. Kat is right in that Christendom is blinded. One must be blind not to see this contradiction. And we don't hate the church. How can you hate someone who is blind ? No one in his right mind would yell at Stevie Wonder for not seeing. And I was there and would still be sick and blind if it wasn't for God's mercy and grace.

And Mari_ et _pere is right in that they just don't know.

I used to attend large Pentecostal churches in the past where there would be prophesying to the congregation. You know the tune - the pastor would speak in tongues and there would be interpretation. And then God would speak through a person to the congregation. And you notice when God speaks He says nothing about the false teachings from the pulpit. There was never a prophecy with God saying - " Why do you teach this doctrine of hell fire when I have not spoken of it. " The prophecies I heard I never was impressed with. There were always so general. Never specific. And if it was God speaking why didn't anyone write it down word for word ? This is a  true story and I was there -there was one time when the interpretation was given and ended with " God shall lead His people as Moses led the animals into the ark. " And then the interpreter  sat down. And the audience was silent. 10 seconds later he stood up and said " I meant Noah. " Go figure.

[jackson]

As concerning the original question... "Is there any truths coming out of the present apostate church today?"  I find the answer to be a resounding YES, YES, YES!!!  After all that is where I'm from, How about you?

To paraphrase Paul: "When I was a child I played with childish toys and drank from mothers milk.  But now as a mature son of God I have put away those childish toys and now drink from the cup of life."

My Father used the First Baptist Church in Houston, Mississippi as a foundation on which to build His Church in me.  I have nothing but love for those people and that time in my life.

But now as the complete truth has been revealed, my Father has seen fit to bring me out of that environment.  My taste have matured beyond that of mothers milk.

As for the people still in the church of man, well, I have this notion of them as "little brothers and sisters".  God the Father has intrusted us (the older more mature sibling) to look after the younger ones.  But as we are still siblings it is not for us to be chastising or condesending to them (assuming our Father loves us more).

So, yes I do believe a great deal of good comes from the church of man.  It is after all, as I said before, God's will; and we all know how that works.

In His Grace,
Jackson