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[mrsnacks]

I remember in my former apologetic classes it was taught to me that the Muslims do worship a false god and not the God of the Scriptures. The same went for the the Mormons and the present day Judaism.Yes Judaism.  IN the Word it says that if one rejects the Son - then that one rejects the Father.

So my question is about Christendom. Do they worship a different god or worship the true God but are in error of who He really is ?

In an analogy I would say if someone comes up to me and said they saw my wife the other day and had lunch with her. Then would explain that my wife was 6' tall and with blond hair. My wife is 5'3" and has black hair so what would my conclusion be ? That person doesn't know my wife and she has the wrong person. So when Christendom says that God send people to hell. That The Holy Spirit is a person etc. Are they just mistaken and have the true God ? I think that I have always prayed to the true God even though I have been in error of who He is.

[Kat]

Hi mrsnacks,

Do you really think it is enough to know of Christ?  I think that Christ must know us.  And He knows us because the Father has given those He chose to Christ.

Joh 17:9  I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

If the Father drags us to Christ, then the Holy Spirit is given and we are in Christ and He is us.

Col 1:27  For to them God would make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the nations, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory,

2Tim 1:14  Guard the good Deposit given through the Holy Spirit indwelling in us.

I watch those different chiefs on the HG channel, and it seems like I know them I see them so much.  But if I called them up and ask them to come to dinner at my house, I guarantee they would refuse and say I do know you.  Well I guess you can see what I mean by that.
Lots of people hear about Jesus, but it takes so much more.  You have to do the will of My Father in Heaven, and that is only possible by Christ in you.

Mat 7:21  Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
v. 22  Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?
v. 23  And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[skydreamers]

I like your reply Kat!  That is a good point...what does it mean to really know someone or something.  Lots of times we can know about someone, or know of someone, but that doesn't mean we understand what they are all about.

Matthew 7:23
23  And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

This is the same word Jesus used in this verse:

John 8:43
43  "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

So when we first come to Christ we are drawn to His love and His sacrifice for us.  But then we slowly become entrenched in whatever church doctrines...and I think this is when we fall away from our first love.

2 Corinthians 11:2-4  (The Message)
2  The thing that has me so upset is that I care about you so much--this is the passion of God burning inside me! I promised your hand in marriage to Christ, presented you as a pure virgin to her husband.
3  And now I'm afraid that exactly as the Snake seduced Eve with his smooth patter, you are being lured away from the simple purity of your love for Christ.
4  It seems that if someone shows up preaching quite another Jesus than we preached--different spirit, different message--you put up with him quite nicely.



I think this is what is happening in churches.

Peace,
Diana

[Pax Vobiscum]

We should be very careful here.

Mr. Snacks' (or Mrs. Nacks') drastic analogy has a lot to say.  Let's stay away from the black-and-white (black-and-blonde?) of the issue and make it a more realistic teaching tool.

Let's say the friend commented on the color of the wife's eyes:  "What a startling shade of green!" he says.  Now I could launch here into some common understanding that we all see colors differently -- but the BT crowd loves drama!

Now, Mr. Snacks here knows that his wife's eyes are hazel (is that in the crayon box?), but that she wears green-tinted contact lenses.  Perhaps (you're gonna love this) she has yet to reveal her true eye color to the friend as of yet.

The choice now is how to handle the situation. 

Mr. Snacks could share the secret of the hazel eyes (let you who have eyes....) and then move on to more relevent conversation. 

He could even berate his friend and say that he doesn't know his wife because he doesn't even know her eye color!  He had lunch with a false wife!  Who are you to say that my wife's eyes are green! Yadda yadda yadda!

Perhaps the two could skip the issue entirely and discuss how nice it is to share a relationship with this woman from two different perspectives -- the key being that neither of them knows everything about the wife!

I believe that the major monotheisms of which you speak each have a perspective and are trying to get to the truth.  They seek what you and I seek.  Especially the orthodox Christians out there -- let's give them a break and realize that we are on the same journey.  There is enough common ground to have a perfectly healthy relationship -- even without all the answers.

One word about apologetics (defending one's perspective).  A good defense is merely that.  Do not confuse a great defense with truth.

Peace

[YellowStone]

Pax,

You certainly make a valid point here. For I feel no one here would ever say that God revealed the same thing to all.

By our own assertions, your analogy is correct. 

God allows sight (perhaps through tinted glasses) of what he pleases.

Thanks for the reminder.

In Christ with Love,
Darren

[Flipper]

As a lover and believer of Jesus Christ, I believe that any organized religion that denies the deity and divinity of Jesus Christ is a false religion and therefore worships a false god.

How does one deny the divinity of Christ?

1.) Installing a person as a go-between or vicar
2.) Partaking in a transubstantiated communion wafer.
3.) Partaking in any Koran, Torah, or Talmudic based theology
4.) Believing in a dispensational "Going of the saints" theology versus a "Coming of the Lord" theology
5.) Believing one will escape the earth and go to heaven versus bringing heaven to earth.

And many more 'idols of the heart' that serve to take one's eyes off Christ.  The Lord has made it clear that only a fraction, a remnant, the chosen of the called, the overcomer will be worthy to partake in the 1st Resurrection (Rev 20:6).  Everyone else will face varying degrees of judgement.  I don't believe most of us are supposed to (or theologically equipped enough to) run into these establishments and 'rescue' our bretheren but simply being a beacon of light and exposing heresy when the opportunity arises with a humility and patience.   Remember:  If God has to DRAG (Gr. Helkuo) these folks to His Son, you will only be able to do so much!

[mrsnacks]

Good points. Especially about the eye color of my wife. Plus how about the height issue ? I know that my wife is really 6' when she is wearing her 9 inch lifts in her shoes. But she is really 5' 3"

[YellowStone]

Flipper,

Very good points

The following is just some thinking out load and directed at no one

I have often thought of mans desire almost need to put their faith in something. All throughout time, man has worshiped just about everything in the hope of giving this life some meaning that believe it or, this life could not fulfill.

To a larger extent in the Western culture than perhaps anywhere else, man has increasingly made idols of the heart a more commercial proposition. How so? Well, if one could not find happiness, one could at least buy it, and buy it they did. I cannot begin to say whether or not a man, woman or child who frequents a church that demands large donations weekly is or is not lost and desperately searching for the real thing.

Likewise, I know many go to church, simply because of the contacts they can make that will benefit there work. I have seen Sunday angels and weekday devils and I know from them I learned a lot; so who am I to say that God did not use them for a very specific purpose.

Another question that I have always had, but could never find an answer too is whether or not God has drawn the ones that frequent the lies and heresies of the church, only so far. I grew up in a country area and went to a tiny Lutheran primary school. (16 kids from preschool to grade 6) We were taught the Bible and I guess pretty much the standard lies, but these folk were good peope, their hearts were good and they lived honestly and cleanly.

Are such as these, of which am sure there are millions worldwide to be lumped into the same bucket as the ones Christ called the blind leading the blind? What then is worse, the one who scrapes together all the spare change they have along with some extra so that they can attend the only church in their neighborhood, or the church members which gleefully hold out their hands for every last dollar.

Never forget, that regardless of the idols of the heart, each one of is here today spiritually because it was Gods plan for us to be. Therefore, in very much the same way as a very special sister told me today, perhaps we should give more attention to where we ourselves are standing than where some others may or may not be.

Eph 2:8 -9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Just my thoughts,

With love,
Darren

[mrsnacks]

Hi mrsnacks,

Do you really think it is enough to know of Christ?  I think that Christ must know us.  And He knows us because the Father has given those He chose to Christ.

Joh 17:9  I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

If the Father drags us to Christ, then the Holy Spirit is given and we are in Christ and He is us.

Col 1:27  For to them God would make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the nations, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory,

2Tim 1:14  Guard the good Deposit given through the Holy Spirit indwelling in us.

I watch those different chiefs on the HG channel, and it seems like I know them I see them so much.  But if I called them up and ask them to come to dinner at my house, I guarantee they would refuse and say I do know you.  Well I guess you can see what I mean by that.
Lots of people hear about Jesus, but it takes so much more.  You have to do the will of My Father in Heaven, and that is only possible by Christ in you.

Mat 7:21  Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
v. 22  Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?
v. 23  And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

---------------------------------

I understand what you are saying but as you stated in your analogy about the chefs, they will say they don't know you. The problem is that the Lord does say
" I never knew you" but it is a future as stated in Revelation. I would say everyone in Christendom would claim that they are chosen and that God knows them and they have a relationship with Christ. We can't call up Jesus and ask him if He knows them as we can call up the chefs. So Jesus does say by your fruits they shall know if you are His disciples or not. I wonder about this verse though because we are all in process and I know I have so much growing to do.
But then again many in Christendom are disciples of traditions and men not Christ.

[seminole]

I like that response by Pax. That person makes a point without throwing stones.
Nole

[mari_et_pere]

I've noticed something in my sister in law and brother in law. They are VERY involved in their church. They eat sleep and breath it. They are youth ministers, do sunday school, clean the church, go to ALL the outside activities, bla bla bla bla blah. Well here's what I've noticed about them. They seem to have a faith in "the message" and "the work" more than IN GOD or IN JESUS CHRIST.

Anytime (at least 9 out of 10, bare minimum) we ask them if they want to go out, or come over, just hang out, we get the response of "oh we're so busy with CHURCH tonight." It's almost CULT-ISH.

But what I'm getting at is, and Darren hit on this. Most people feel the need to have faith in something. For some it's drugs, or sex, or a god. For some, it's church itself. The act of being involved in church. The feeling of "serving God" by helping "the church" as they call it, do it's stuff." Kind of sad because in the long run, what a waste of time it will have been.

Peace

Matt

[seminole]

I think part of it all, Matt, is that thing of wanting to belong somewhere. For example, I played football and even though I didn't like all the players, you acted like you did to fit the group. When I got into the drugs and alcohol world there were times I didn't want a drink but got drunk anyway just to hang with the group. I hope this makes some sense. It sounds like a weak way to be and I am not proud of it but that is what it was for me.
Seminole

[mrsnacks]

I've noticed something in my sister in law and brother in law. They are VERY involved in their church. They eat sleep and breath it. They are youth ministers, do sunday school, clean the church, go to ALL the outside activities, bla bla bla bla blah. Well here's what I've noticed about them. They seem to have a faith in "the message" and "the work" more than IN GOD or IN JESUS CHRIST.

Anytime (at least 9 out of 10, bare minimum) we ask them if they want to go out, or come over, just hang out, we get the response of "oh we're so busy with CHURCH tonight." It's almost CULT-ISH.

But what I'm getting at is, and Darren hit on this. Most people feel the need to have faith in something. For some it's drugs, or sex, or a god. For some, it's church itself. The act of being involved in church. The feeling of "serving God" by helping "the church" as they call it, do it's stuff." Kind of sad because in the long run, what a waste of time it will have been.

Peace

Matt

----------------------------------

What I have done is ask why do you go to church ? I live dangerously by my questions. Then their answer will reveal what's in their  heart. And by asking questions their answers and my responses ( in light humor) God has used to convict them.

I had one lady friend complained about going. She opened up to me. She said she didn't feel like going because of all the rules and all the politics and hypocrisy among the clergy etc. The tithing question came up as well. I then said well if you have a hard time going to church than why continue. God dwells in your heart and not in buildings and man made temples. I shared with her my experiences that the truths I found and the God I have come to know was revealed to me outside the building. She is open by the way because the blinders are coming off. Her main struggle was the tithing thing among a ton of other issues. I patiently shared with her and her mom ( she was struggling to with the teachings of the church ) about tithing showing her it was never about money etc. Their eyes were opened and now they are set free from that tithing doctrine.
And you know they called me and sounded so relieved. Because God has been blessing them even though they have stopped tithing. So much for the pastor telling them that if they don't tithe they aren't being faithful.

The thing is I just presented the truths to them. I didn't tell them what to do. I pointed out scripture and showed where tithing was not biblical. But I ended with if you still decide to tithe it is up to you. Now the amazing thing is that they are so open to hearing from me. I talked to them about the myth of the hell doctrine and they both said it makes sense. Now what they are seeing is that Christendom is teaching false doctrines.

[mari_et_pere]

Mr Snacks, or Mrs Nacks?
No really though LOL.......It seems to me that you have a nack, no pun intended but cool how that fit LOL......but you have a nack, or talent, or gift, of reaching out to people and teaching them! That is awesome! I'm not gifted that way at all. I wish I were. I want to tell everyone that I know about the truth, but in my mind it would be like telling them all that I'd been beamed up by aliens and went for a space cruise. They'd think I was nuts. I think it's my fault because I'm very analytical and to the point, whereas what people want is to be babied as I see it. I'm the "this is stupid because it's wrong" kind of dude, whereas others take the time to spell everything out in detail. That's something Ray is excellent at doing.
I'm sure you've made at least a small impact in at least somebody. You plant your seeds. God will water if He chooses.
Just thought I'd tell ya that it's awesome that you've found a way to share what you know and learn.

Peace

Matt

[mrsnacks]

Thanks so much. I will tell you I am very analytical. I have studied apologetics and philosophy for years. And I remember a saying that really turned me around. A teacher of mine said " you must get the hay out of the loft and down on the ground so the cows can eat it. So I stopped talking like a textbook and using big words etc.
I used to talk to my wife using these philosophical terms such as epistemology, ontology,  transcendentals, presuppositions and many other 10 cent words. She used to tell me I was giving her a headache. I then started to look at Jesus. I looked at Socrates. Socrates like Jesus asked his students questions that he already knew the answer to. I don't know if you ever watched Columbo on tv. Do like Columbo.  He asked questions. So when I talk to people my intention is to ask questions in a way so they can arrive at the truths as opposed to me telling them. Instead of telling them the truth make the conversation in a way where they come up with the truth instead of you. Hope this helps.

[mari_et_pere]

Yeah, that seems like a good idea. Ask instead of tell. I do that with my kids all the time. It makes people think a little more. Helps them think things through by themselves, instead of just getting an answer or empty thought that goes in one ear and out the other. Next time I'll ask myself, "What would Columbo do?" LOL 

thanks man

Matt

[mrsnacks]

Here is the setting. Columbo happened to go to church and the pastor seeing him comes to Columbo to welcome him.  It would go like this:


Preacher:  Hi Columbo . Good to see you. What did you think of my sermon on hell ? Have you made a decision for Christ yet ? I hope my sermon made you think.

Columbo : It did . Made me think a lot.


Preacher: That is good. What did you think about ?

Columbo ( scratching his head) : Well , I want to ask you a question.

Preacher : Shoot.

Columbo : I heard your sermon and wondered where you got this idea about hell being eternal and a place of eternal torment.

Preacher : It is all in the Bible.

Columbo : Really ?

Preacher : Yes indeed.

Columbo : Well you know I did a little research on this a few weeks ago and as you know I am a private detective and I investigate things. Do you mind if I share what I came up with?

Preacher : I would "love" to hear what you came up with.

Columbo : Love ? I really love that word love . And what is so great about you pastor is that you have made me feel real comfortable in telling you what I am about to tell you. I would hate to see you get mad and upset and bite my head off. 

Preacher : Oh don't worry. I am really a nice guy. Only a wolf would bite your head off. I am more like a sheep.


Columbo :The Bible warns us to be aware of wolves in sheep's clothing. I am glad you are a sheep in and out.  Well I hope you mean what you say after I tell you what I came up with. Well I just don't find the word hell in the Bible. I looked at looked checking the Greek and Hebrew and I need you to show me.


Anyway I like Columbo . He has a laid back approach.

It helps if you wear a raincoat. It puts you in the Columbo mood.

[gmik]

 

Too cool Mr. Snacks!

I wanna know what the Pastor says back!

[mrsnacks]

The plot thickens . I will post it later. 

[PKnowler]

That was great Mr Snacks! I actually imagined Columbo talking.
I can't wait to hear the rest of the story!

Blessings! 
~Paula