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Did Jesus suffer desease and pain before the cross ?
hillsbororiver:
Good points Orlando,
Another thing is that the Father's charactor is displayed through His Son, this was a revelation to me as well, not that I hadn't heard it before but the depth of the Father's love is shown through the suffering of His Son.
Ray used the illustration of a parent watching their child suffer and how they would trade places in a heartbeat to ease the pain and how a loving parent will actually feel even more miserable than the child just by witnessing this misery.
That is how the Father felt about Jesus, and how He feels about all His children.
His Peace to you,
Joe
LittleBear:
Barbara,
THANK YOU for your beautiful post. I am totally blown away by this whole teaching of Jesus not having physical beauty. It shows us more about the real Him, and not the carnal version. I want to know every detail about Him! I had the Hollywood version stuck in my head even if I wasn't conscious of it.
Joe,
It's true that this detail is so important. It's important to know Him the way He is NOW and the way He was THEN. It's important because it's truth! It's important because it is comforting to know that He can relate to me in my sufferings because He did it!
Hi Orlando,
I know what you mean. I now have a different picture of Jesus and of what He suffered. For Him to do this, for us, and willingly, really portrays His true love for us and for the world.
Love,
Ursula
Deborah-Leigh:
To add :
What I also found wonderful is that God the Father could not die. So He made a Son who could. Then He said to His Son, go create a Universe for starters! That is Gods Son who came and died for us! He volunteered! He did not HAVE TO! And God suffered for us in this way to show He loves us! Is that not humbling and worthy of reverential love and appreciation and and and and.....words fail!.....
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
josh:
Mrsnacks,
Here are some scriptures that may add to this discussion:
Hebrews 2:18 (Young's Literal Translation)
"for in that he suffered, himself being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted."
Hebrews 4:14-19 (Young's Literal Translation)
Having, then, a great chief priest passed through the heavens -- Jesus the Son of God -- may we hold fast the profession, for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathize with our infirmities, but [one] tempted in all things in like manner -- apart from sin; we may come near, then, with freedom, to the throne of the grace, that we may receive kindness, and find grace -- for seasonable help.
Hebrews 5:7-9 (Young's Literal Translation)
"who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,"
To tell you the truth... I've never really thought about that Christ might have caught a cold or came down with a fever. I guess, I'm always so stuck on the end portion of His life, that often times I've failed to consider that he lived here, LIKE US, on this earth... there was a journey and a process that He also had to endure before He could arrive at that cross.
Like us, I believe that He learned from "the THINGS (plural) which He suffered."
How else could we identify with this man, if His suffering was only limited to one single event... I imagine He suffered all of the same things we do, after all He was "acquainted with sorrow"... perhaps, when the scriptures say that He lowered Himself to become like His creation that this also meant, not only that He could die on the cross, but that His flesh was dying the entirety of His time here on earth, just like us.
Philippians 2:6-9 (Young's Literal Translation)
who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross,wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that [is] above every name,
Just a few thoughts.
God's Peace
Josh
YellowStone:
Hi everyone :)
Wow!! :D Has this topic been a tough learning experience for me ::)
It is very difficult seeing the "whole" picture when looking only from a single plane pf reference. :D
Oh sure, I caught the spiritual significance of all that Ray said, but simply dismissed the physical aspects. ???
Joe, I NOW see what you were saying: How typically Hollywood, is the believing that Jesus was perfect but could "feel" and "knew" my pain? :) Yet, Hollywood is just a carnal whitewashed persona, it is nothing more than a perception of reality. Knock me down, is this not how I treated the "man" Jesus Christ? ::)
The answer can only be a sad.....yes :(
Josh, the Scriptures below helped......
Hebrews 2:18 (Young's Literal Translation)
"for in that he suffered, himself being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted."
Hebrews 4:14-19 (Young's Literal Translation)
Having, then, a great chief priest passed through the heavens -- Jesus the Son of God -- may we hold fast the profession, for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathize with our infirmities, but [one] tempted in all things in like manner -- apart from sin; we may come near, then, with freedom, to the throne of the grace, that we may receive kindness, and find grace -- for seasonable help.
Hebrews 5:7-9 (Young's Literal Translation)
"who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during,"
Barbara,
You posted the following and this helped too. :)
Spiritually speaking, Jesus considers sinners "sick" and in need of cleaning up from the inside out. It would be nice to have a perfectly healthy piece of flesh but it whithers away after a short time and is not important at all. After upbraiding them on many occasions "Woe unto you hypocrites," etc., I'm thinking the unbelievers figured Jesus needed a spiritual healing, repentance, and salvation. That's certainly the way those that believe the scriptures are treated by the rest of the system.
That's where I got stuck :) "It would be nice...." but who cares, right? ;) Big mistake! :)
Joe,
Now I see the significance of your words :D
I tend to disagree that it is an unimportant and insignificant issue in regard to the (physical) sufferings of our Lord and the obstacles in His own path. If He were a perfect (our carnal version) specimen and only truly suffered in Gethsemane and on Calvary then it could be said that He really did not have a true human experience. I believe that what He went through will prove to be the most difficult journey ever experienced by any man, compounded by the knowledge of His former glorious state of existence.
All this helped but the clincher came to me when Christ said the following: :)
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard [it], he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Luk 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.
Certainly Christ is refering to Spiritual Healing, yet I now believe that He was using this as a clear metaphor regarding his own physical condtion. :) He used his illnesses / ailments so that he could speak on the same level as those of his day. It was because, he was at this level that he could speak past the "physical" so that His spiritual message would not get lost. How much easier it is, even today, to love and understand someone "we" can relate too, knowing that they are indeed, feeling what we feel.
Oh, and I just want to add that "by not" being in perfect physical health, it must have been so much easier showing the importance of his message, because He gave credence to it rather than his physical health.
Kind of got caught on a saying I use often: "I couldn't see the forest for the trees" :)
Thanks be to God for allowing me to see (in His time) not mine and to all my brothers and sisters who had patience with me.
Much Love in Christ to All,
Darren
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