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[jerreye]

Thanks for your reply, Kat! I indeed had that in mind as well when reading Gen 1. It just seems plausible to me that God held off saying "and it was so" until AFTER He mentioned the fact that we have dominion over everything He created. However, when I look at mankind as it is, we are certainly NOT in His perfect spiritual image.

Here's an interesting question...it seems to me that Adam and Eve had every right to eat of the Tree of Life prior to eating of the Tree of Knowledge, correct? What would have happened if Adam and Eve DID eat of the Tree of Life, FIRST? Would THAT have made them into the spiritual image of God? I pressume that there is a LOT more here than meets the eye!

[Robert]

The discussion is getting a little off-track, as the original question was for people who had considered the difference between literal six-day creation and what is dubbed ‘old-earth’ creation, as well as a side point that is related to do with Noah’s flood being world-wide or local. (And this still would have been an extremely large flood).
I will answer the previous question: ‘why didn’t Noah just move to a different location?’
The logic itself is faulty; if Noah and family just took a journey and moved to ‘higher ground,’ when they returned all the animals, birds and insects of Mesopotamia would be gone, and re-population of such would be extremely slow. Besides this, it simply was the Lord’s will that Noah make an ark.

[hillsbororiver]

Hi All,

What about this?

Matthew 12:36
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

I find it hard to imagine that this is speaking of a literal day...how on earth will every man give account for every idle word in 24 hours?

Great point Diane!

I remember when Ray quoted this in regard to creation length/time it really hit home with me.

The other question raised in this thread was about the Flood and was it local or worldwide? Well it looks like it was local in quite a few localities! 

Check this out;



Africa
Southwest Tanzania
Once upon a time the rivers began to flood. The god told two people to get into a ship. He told them to take lots of seed and to take lots of animals. The water of the flood eventually covered the mountains. Finally the flood stopped. Then one of the men, wanting to know if the water had dried up let a dove loose. The dove returned. Later he let loose a hawk which did not return. Then the men left the boat and took the animals and the seeds with them.

Asia
China
The Chinese classic called the Hihking tells about "the family of Fuhi," that was saved from a great flood. This ancient story tells that the entire land was flooded; the mountains and everything, however one family survived in a boat. The Chinese consider this man the father of their civilization. This record indicates that Fuhi, his wife, three sons, and three daughters were the only people that escaped the great flood. It is claimed, that he and his family were the only people alive on earth, and repopulated the world.

Babylon
Gilgamesh met an old man named Utnapishtim, who told him the following story. The gods came to Utnapishtim to warn him about a terrible flood that was coming. They instructed Utnapishtim to destroy his house and build a large ship. The ship was to be 10 dozen cubits high, wide and long. Utnapishtim was to cover the ship with pitch. He was supposed to take male and female animals of all kinds, his wife and family, provisions, etc. into the ship. Once ship was completed the rain began falling intensely. The rain fell for six days and nights. Finally things calmed and the ship settled on the top of Mount Nisir. After the ship had rested for seven days Utnapishtim let loose a dove. Since the land had not dried the dove returned. Next he sent a swallow which also returned. Later he let loose a raven which never returned since the ground had dried. Utnapishtim then left the ship.

Chaldean
There was a man by the name of Xisuthrus. The god Chronos warned Xisuthrus of a coming flood and told him to build a boat. The boat was to be 5 stadia by 2 stadia. In this boat Xisuthrus was to put his family, friends and two of each animal (male and female). The flood came. When the waters started to recede he let some birds loose. They came back and he noticed they had mud on their feet. He tried again with the same results. When he tried the third time the birds did not return. Assuming the water had dried up the people got out of the boat and offered sacrifices to the gods.

India
A long time ago lived a man named Manu. Manu, while washing himself, saved a small fish from the jaws of a large fish. The fish told Manu, "If you care for me until I am full grown I will save you from terrible things to come". Manu asked what kind of terrible things. The fish told Manu that a great flood would soon come and destroy everything on the earth. The fish told Manu to put him in a clay jar for protection. The fish grew and each time he outgrew the clay jar Manu gave him a larger one. Finally the fish became a ghasha, one of the largest fish in the world. The fish instructed Manu to build a large ship since the flood was going to happen very soon. As the rains started Manu tied a rope from the ship to the ghasha. The fish guided the ship as the waters rose. The whole earth was covered by water. When the waters began subsiding the ghasha led Manu's ship to a mountaintop.

Australia
There is a legend of a flood called the Dreamtime flood. Riding on this flood was the woramba, or the Ark Gumana. In this ark was Noah, Aborigines, and various animals. This ark eventually came to rest in the plain of Djilinbadu where it can still be found. They claim that the white mans story about the ark landing in the middle east is a lie that was started to keep the aborigines in subservience. This legend is undoubtedly the product of aboriginal legends merging with those of visiting missionaries, and there does not appear to be any native flood stories from Australia.

Europe
Greece
A long time ago, perhaps before the golden age was over, humans became proud. This bothered Zeus as they kept getting worse. Finally Zeus decided that he would destroy all humans. Before he did this Prometheus, the creator of humans, warned his human son Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha. Prometheus then placed this couple in a large wooden chest. The rains started and lasted nine days and nights until the whole world was flooded. The only thing that was not flooded was the peaks of Mount Parnassus and Mount Olympus. Mount Olympus is the home of the gods. The wooden chest came to rest on Mount Parnassus. Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha got out and saw that everything was flooded. The lived on provisions from the chest until the waters subsided. At Zeus' instruction they re-populated the earth.

North America
Mexico
The Toltec natives have a legend telling that the original creation lasted for 1716 years, and was destroyed by a flood and only one family survived.

Aztec- A man named Tapi lived a long time ago. Tapi was a very pious man. The creator told Tapi to build a boat that he would live in. He was told that he should take his wife, a pair of every animal that was alive into this boat. Naturally everyone thought he was crazy. Then the rain started and the flood came. The men and animals tried to climb the mountains but the mountains became flooded as well. Finally the rain ended. Tapi decided that the water had dried up when he let a dove loose that did not return.

United States
The Ojibwe natives who have lived in Minnesota USA since approximately 1400AD also have a creation and flood story that closely paralleles the Biblical account. "There came a time when the harmonious way of life did not continue. Men and women disrespected each other, families quarreled and soon villages began arguing back and forth. This saddened Gitchie Manido [the Creator] greatly, but he waited. Finally, when it seemed there was no hope left, Creator decided to purify Mother Earth through the use of water. The water came, flooding the Earth, catching all of creation off guard. All but a few of each living thing survived." Then it tells how Waynaboozhoo survived by floating on a log in the water with various animals.
Ojibwe - Ancient native American creation story tells of world wide flood.

Delaware Indians - In the pristine age, the world lived at peace; but an evil spirit came and caused a great flood. The earth was submerged. A few persons had taken refuge on the back of a turtle, so old that his shell had collected moss. A loon flew over their heads and was entreated to dive beneath the water and bring up land. It found only a bottomless sea. Then the bird flew far away, came back with a small portion of earth in its bill, and guided the tortoise to a place where there was a spot of dry land.
Delaware Indian Legends

South America
Inca
During the period of time called the Pachachama people became very evil. They got so busy coming up with and performing evil deeds they neglected the gods. Only those in the high Andes remained uncorrupted. Two brothers who lived in the highlands noticed their llamas acting strangely. They asked the llamas why and were told that the stars had told the llamas that a great flood was coming. This flood would destroy all the life on earth. The brothers took their families and flocks into a cave on the high mountains. It started to rain and continued for four months. As the water rose the mountain grew keeping its top above the water. Eventually the rain stopped and the waters receded. The mountain returned to its original height. The shepherds repopulated the earth. The llamas remembered the flood and that is why they prefer to live in the highland areas.

Interesting isn't it?

Taken from    http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

His Peace to you,

Joe

[skydreamers]

Mike Huckabee on Evolution and the GOP Debate 6/5/2007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mri8Ex5RmDw

[Robert]

Hi, Joe.

I am aware that many cultures do have an account of the flood. The indigenous people of my county (New Zealand), the Maoris, have a story about a mythical god/man called Maui and his ‘big canoe’.
I believe that as the generations of Noah scattered throughout the world the oral history went with them and got changed over time, resulting in the variation of the stories.
What I don’t believe is that there was a world-wide flood and there were many people like Noah around the world who built a number of arks and replenished their various countries. I doubt that is what you believe but it could, upon a surface reading be construed that way.
Have a look at http://www.answersincreation.org/ . To date for me the jury is still out.

[hillsbororiver]

What I don't believe is that there was a world-wide flood and there were many people like Noah around the world who built a number of arks and replenished their various countries. I doubt that is what you believe but it could, upon a surface reading be construed that way.

 

Hi Robert,

You are absolutely right! I do not believe that!

What I do believe and what my point was that the message of this flood has reached the ends of the earth, pretty much every culture in the world has this legend that something catastrophic did indeed happen, if nothing else the message of Noah has covered the entire earth if in fact the actual physical water did not.

It is truly remarkable how tribes and/or remote cultures had this legend deeply ingrained in their "history" before any recorded contact with Semitic or western culture or missionaries of any kind.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[mari_et_pere]

Sorry to change the subject back to the orginal.  But,

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The earth was without form, and void (empty). Darkness was upon it. The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. So this formless, voided, water covered earth was all there was. Why? I've read viewpoints of previous activity on the earth. The Scriptures don't rule it out. Watcha think?

Matt

[indianabob]

Andrevan,

Regarding the DAY of giving of an account.  It seems to me that the purpose here is to convict a person of their habit of sin or selfishness or gossip etc.  In that case the judgement process would not have to go over every instance of using an idle (useless or thoughtless) word, but rather would lend itself to convincing a person that they needed to repent in tears and sorrow for the hurt they had caused others.  Once they understand their own error or sin, then repentance would cover all other instances of the same or similar sin, just as it does with us in this day of correction for the Elect.

Thanks for reading,  Indiana Bob

Hi All,

What about this?

Matthew 12:36
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

I find it hard to imagine that this is speaking of a literal day...how on earth will every man give account for every idle word in 24 hours?

Genesis 2:17
17  but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Isn't humanity continuing to eat of this tree (spiritually) every day until the close of the ages??

Perhaps there is a literal application as well as a spiritual application to the word "day".  I find it interesting to seek out the spiritual application of the six days of creation. 

Andrevan,

I think I'm with you in seeing this:

God has not finished creating us into His image and likeness yet, so I'm not sure that we're in the 7th Day, because God is still creating mankind. Yes, all other life has been created past tense, because they are not being created into God's image, only Mankind. His work is not yet finished in this regard.

I wonder even if most of humanity is still in the 5th day spiritually speaking:

Genesis 1:25
25  And God made the beasts of the earth ...

What is man but a beast....it isn't until we recognize the beast within us that God begins to conform us into His image....I see the Elect as being in the sixth day, as it is this group that God is training to have:

Genesis 1:26
...dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.


In the next age, the Elect will truly have this dominion over the fish of the sea (all the rest of humanity...the nations), the fowl of the heavens (evil spirits...do you not know that you shall judge angels?), over the cattle (the beast within), over all the earth (many called...Christians) and over all the creepers creeping on the earth (okay, I haven't figured out what this one could be ...anyone?)

I know many believe that the 7th day will be the millennium period/age, but I'm wondering if the millennium age is actually the 6th day and the 7th day is the end when Jesus gives back the kingdom to the Father, and God is all in all, and we shall all have perfect rest.

This may not be exactly what this thread is about, but I felt compelled to add this, just to give an alternative perspective as to how the 6 days could be a spiritual parable.

Of course, that doesn't rule out at all some literal application...

May God open our eyes on the matter, if it be in His will,
Peace,
Diana

[Kat]

Hi Matt,

You bring up a interesting point about the earth being in Gen 1:2  "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

Now you can say that Gen. 1:1, the creation of the universe, could have happened a long time before God started creating life on earth in verse 2.

Though it seems that the earth is unique in all that we know about the other planets.  It may have started out similar to what the other planets look like.  But then God continued it here on earth and created a wonder life filled planet.  I think unique in that aspect, in the universe.

Was a day of creation a 24 hour period?  Here are the uses of the same word used for 'day' in the Genesis creation, throughout the scripture. The numbers in pharases are the number of times that word is used in scripture from the greek word for day.

H3117
day
יום
yom (398a); a prim. root; day: - afternoon *(1), age (08), age *(1), all (1), always *(14), amount *(2), battle (1), birthday *(1), Chronicles *(38), completely *(1), continually *(14), course *(1), daily (22), daily the days (1), day (1115), day of the days (1), day that the period (1), day’s (6), day’s every day (1), daylight *(1), days (635), days on the day (1), days to day (1), days you shall daily (1), days ago (1), days’ (11), each (1), each day (4), entire (2), eternity (1), evening *(1), ever in your life *(1), every day (2), fate (1), first (5), forever *(11), forevermore *(1), full (5), full year (1), future *(1), holiday *(3), later *(2), length (1), life (12), life *(1), lifetime (2), lifetime *(1), live (1), long (2), long as I live (1), long *(11), midday *(1), now (5), older *(1), once (2), period (3), perpetually *(2), present (1), recently (1), reigns (1), ripe *(1), short-lived *(1), so long *(1), some time (1), survived *(2), time (45), time *(1), times *(2), today (172), today *(1), usual (1), very old *(1), when (10), when the days (1), whenever (1), while (3), whole (2), year (10), yearly (5), years (13), yesterday *(1).

Maybe the days of creation went back to the beginning of the creation of the universe and came forward to the creation of man, just a thought.

Something else that I find interesting, is this verse;

Jere. 4:23  "I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light."

Sounds a lot like Genesis 1:2, but this is talking about how Christ will find the earth when He returns. 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[YellowStone]

Hi Kat,

You wrote: Maybe the days of creation went back to the beginning of the creation of the universe and came forward to the creation of man, just a thought.

I believe that this is very probable; because without a doubt God did create dinosaurs and there is no mention of them anywhere in the Scriptures. This is not to say that they didn't exist, just that weren't around in time of Adam. If this view is correct, does it not remove all doubt regarding 6 literal man days.

Great point sister

Your brother in Christ,
Love
Darren

[andrevan]

Hi Robert & Joe

The only people who survived to pass on the Flood catastrophe account would have been Noah and his family who came off the ark. As Robert alluded to, the generations after Noah handed down this historic account, however, most of the accuracy would have been lost with superstition and superfluous details being added over the many generations. We have the historically accurate account given to us by God through Noah.

What reasons are there NOT to believe that the Flood covered the entire earth?

Peace to you .
Andrevan.

[GODSown1]

wow!!!,
       Wen I first saw da name of dis Thread I jus went past but den I went back & had abit of a read, den went else wher den back again lol! den I found it real interesting! & went back 2 da start & read it all, All wot all had 2 say & each thort AMAZING! lol!, D@s wot I LOVE! about dis Forum, hw can U fault it? Thank You GOD!. Well n e wayz lol! in my Opinion lol!, I believe the entire Earth was under water az it is written 2 me its so plan 2 c lol! , az 4 da 6 day fing, Im nt sure!! but I do no who r we!? 2 say wot GOD can or cant do? HE is the Creator!! of alL! everything!!.NO Doubt!, Personally I fink its all of no importance!, & look 2 the AWESUM!! future WE ALL have 2 look 4ward 2, BUT! lol! I do LOVE! da wayz U all have ur say n backings n most cases wit Scripture, da knowledge uz pocess is Amazing! YOUS should alL b Thanking our Creator 4 all ur Orsum! talents & knowledge HE has given uZ!, Im sorry if Ive jus "killed it" lol!, I just thort id hav a say 2 lol! bcoZ! it was good lol! GODBLESS! uz alL!!.
        muchLOVE!! Pera

ps. um! Robert wher u @ brother!?? Im in Palmerston North, man! I thort I was the Only 1 in NZ  Opened 2 GODS TruthS! lol! na! jokEs! bO lol! Im so rapt HE has opened my eyez tho, HardOwt!, GOD is so GOOD!
OH! yea Diana I really Loved alot of ur insights of dis Thread OrsuM! & d@ U tube fingy was kewl! 2 ,GOD b wit U alwayZ!

[Robert]

Hi Godsown1. So you’re in Palmy? My home-town is Foxton! In the early 80’s I worked in Palmerston at garage off Pioneer highway. I live in Te Puke now (American readers; that’s pronounced tea- pook-ee, as in look) and teach at a school in Rotorua. I used to belong to the Brethren assemblies, what about you? Btw, I haven’t met anyone else who believes this either. Do you know how this private message thingy works?

[Kat]

Hi Robert,

If you want to send someone a personal message (pm). 
Just right click on their name, that will take you to their profile. 
Now scroll down to the bottom of the page, and you will see
'send this member a personal message' just click on that line. 
It will take you to the message board. 
Type out your message and you may 'preview' it before it is posted, then click on 'post'. 
This will be sent to that person and they will have a box come up that says, you have received a pm. 
At the top of any page you will see 'my messages' right click there. 
It will take you to your in coming message page.

Hope this helps anybody that did not know how to use the pm 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[mari_et_pere]

Kat & Darren,

I'll try to find the paper I read about Creation. It's very interesting stuff with strong evidence that supports the theory that Earth was a chaotic mess between the times of Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. Who says there wasn't a whole lot of time between those two verses? I hope I can find it for ya.

Matt

[GODSown1]

Hey!!,
       Howz it Robert I just wana say Ive sent U a message thru da way Kat sed 2, sO um! I hope U got it or get it lol! GODBLESS! alL
        muchLOVE!! Pera

[rvhill]

Hi All,

What about this?

Matthew 12:36
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

I find it hard to imagine that this is speaking of a literal day...how on earth will every man give account for every idle word in 24 hours?

Genesis 2:17
17  but you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.

Isn't humanity continuing to eat of this tree (spiritually) every day until the close of the ages??

Perhaps there is a literal application as well as a spiritual application to the word "day".  I find it interesting to seek out the spiritual application of the six days of creation. 

Andrevan,

I think I'm with you in seeing this:

God has not finished creating us into His image and likeness yet, so I'm not sure that we're in the 7th Day, because God is still creating mankind. Yes, all other life has been created past tense, because they are not being created into God's image, only Mankind. His work is not yet finished in this regard.

I wonder even if most of humanity is still in the 5th day spiritually speaking:


May God open our eyes on the matter, if it be in His will,
Peace,
Diana

We are in the 6 age because 6 is the number of a man, or the number of Man. 7 is also the number of completion, or perfection.

[rvhill]

The early stories in Genesis are no more true then the parables of Jesus. They are not meant as historical accounts, but as moral lessons. How can a person eat of the fruit of the law or Jesus from a tree?

[andrevan]

The early stories in Genesis are no more true then the parables of Jesus. They are not meant as historical accounts, but as moral lessons. How can a person eat of the fruit of the law or Jesus from a tree?

I think this is nonsense, IMO. See what happens when we compromise the Word of God with the ideas of men? Perhaps you could take us through the "moral lessons" of Genesis 1 & 2 and then go backwards from Noah to Adam and explain to us at what exact point we go from historical and genealogical records to some up-in-the-air symbolism of moral lessons and fictitious fruit eaten by real (or fictitious?) people.

We are told clearly in the NT when and to whome Jesus spoke in parables.

I find these verses quite clear as to where man is located in reference to the creation:

Mar 10:6 Yet from the beginning [a commencement, chief, beginning, origin, etc] of creation God makes them male and female.
Mar 10:7 On this account a man will be leaving his father and mother and will be joined to his wife,
Mar 10:8 and the two will be one flesh. So that no longer are they two, but one flesh."

So at the beginning of God's creation, He physically makes mankind male and female, and since then God has been creating them into His spiritual image, this part of the process is still going on, it is not yet complete.

We need not be intimidated by what "soft science" (forensic speculation) says, because it is always changing, the ideas and theories come and go, but the Word of God never changes or passes away.

Peace to you.
Andrevan.

[rvhill]

First off you will only believe what you wish to believe. The bible never says how old the world is, and really does not say how long any thing took to be made. It say that the world was made or will be made in 7 yomes, but it also says that the world was made in 1 yome. As others have pointed out there was no day tell the 4th  yome. So what ever a yome is it is not as day. The whole 7 yomes of creation is all about numerology.

 People get Theory of evolution and Darwinism mixed up. Darwinism is a evil philosophy because it is racism is pseudo science. Theory of evolution is very sound, the problem is most people simply do not understand it. They think that evolution is all about mutation, like in some X-man comic book, and it is not.  Theory of evolution works on three basic factors isolation, plastically of living organism, and genetic drift. The first thing you have to understand is that all living organism are plastic in nature, meaning that they are moldable in size and shape. Human do this all the time with domesticated animals, like dogs. All dogs are genetically wolves, but do not look much like wolves, and they come in all sizes. The other two factors relate, it take tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of generations for two isolated groups to become two different species, through genetic drift. Meaning that with each new generation the genes are slightly different. This why Dogs are still genetically wolves, the generations between your pet dog and any wolf is less then 1,000 generations.