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Author Topic: Jesus coming out of the Father means that Christ was created by God ?  (Read 11524 times)

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mrsnacks

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Begotten of God. Does this truly mean Jesus was a created being. I thought that Christ was eternally existing in the Father being that God is eternal without beginning. This is the last new topic for awhile.  ;)
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YellowStone

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Hi MrSnacks

You might find the following Scripture helpful.

Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creatuwe

This would seemingly suggest that Christ did have a 'begin' date and thus cannot by definition be Eternal like his Father. :)

Love to you in Christ,
Darren
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mari_et_pere

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Hmm....how do I state this? Imagine a corporation. I'll call it He. It's God. Now, the corporation needs a sort of spokesman, or whatever to fill some certain responsibilities. So part of the corporation COMES OUT OF ITSELF and calls itself Jesus. Or should say He sends part of itself out. Is this maybe a good analogy? Maybe not..........now I've gone and confused myself again!  ::) I blame mrsnacks.  ;D  :) ;)

Matt
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sansmile

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LOL @ MATT,

I now what u mean


Bless you xx
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sansmile

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i meant   i Know  lol
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mrsnacks

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Hmm....how do I state this? Imagine a corporation. I'll call it He. It's God. Now, the corporation needs a sort of spokesman, or whatever to fill some certain responsibilities. So part of the corporation COMES OUT OF ITSELF and calls itself Jesus. Or should say He sends part of itself out. Is this maybe a good analogy? Maybe not..........now I've gone and confused myself again!  ::) I blame mrsnacks.  ;D  :) ;)

Matt





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Don't blame me, I didn't write the Book.  ;D
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skydreamers

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This really is a crazy bunch....thank God for humor...I needed this today ;)

Luv ya all with sisterly love in Christ....

Peace,
Diana
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jER

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 :o   :D   :o
     :P   :-\   ::)
 ;D    :-*    :o
     ;D    8)    :)

Yes, Diana - they are, and smart too!   
And, as Pera would say, with "muchLuv."   ;)

- Jer
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gzeigler

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Prior to the conference I never considered Jesus in his begotten condition.  However, I always wondered about him 'being God'.  I now understand that god is a position more so than a person.  I like what Ray said, that is, Jesus must have qualified for the title, position, moniker of 'God' in the past and walks in the honor, glory and power that position contains.  Jesus is busier in the bible than I thought!

Check out these scriptures...
John 1:14    ...(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father)...
John 1:18    ...the only begotten son, which is in the Father's bosom...
John 3:16    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son...
Acts 13:33  ..."Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee"...  (also Heb 1:5)
1John 4:9    ...because that God sent his only begotten son into the world,...

It gets rather exciting when one goes back to Psalm 2 and reads verses 6-9.

Now I understand why Satan tried to tempt Jesus with all the kingdoms of the world... Psalms 2:8

Grace and peace
gtz

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Robert

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I have been recently studying Ray’s refutation of the Trinity Doctrine, and your question is pertinent to this. It is logical to assume that a father is older than his son, and remembers his birthday. It is therefore reasonable conjecture that The Father was at one time alone, until He begat His Son, Jesus. The difficulty comes when we are confronted with eternal Son. Does this mean from the point of His birth that He is eternal? I think not, because that by definition isn’t eternal, as in having no beginning or end.
I think the problem is that we are subject to time, and time is a scientific concept that is ONLY relevant to physical creation. Time is dependent on speed and gravity, both part of atomic structure.
Try and write a statement about God being alone and then bringing forth a son so then there were two, without using any words that pertain to time. I have found it is not possible. Even saying prior to creation is a contradictory statement. We are only left with a philosophical conjecture that God is a state of being.
But further to this, given that Christ is of The Father, He was begotten of what God is, and that is Spirit. An analogy could be that we are of our parents, in that our blood, characteristics, and likeness is of them. And although we have a recorded birthday, we are also of the human race, which goes back to Adam. So our being has a recorded birthday yet also shares the birthday of Adam. Therefore we could conclude that everything that Christ is of, is eternal, with no beginning.
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Kat

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Hi Robert,

Quote
The difficulty comes when we are confronted with eternal Son. Does this mean from the point of His birth that He is eternal? I think not, because that by definition isn’t eternal, as in having no beginning or end.

In this statement, you say the difficulty come with eternal Son.  It would be helpful if you would show which scripture you were referring to on this. 
The word 'eternal' used in scripture usually means aion/age.

This is an interesting scripture.

Rev 3:14  "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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YellowStone

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Hi Robert,

You wrote: "Even saying prior to creation is a contradictory statement. We are only left with a philosophical conjecture that God is a state of being."

This is an interesting statement. :)

"Prior to Creation" can only be contradictory if one takes this creation as the absolute beginning. Yet, the term itself implies that it the beginning cannot mean anything other than "the" creation. Creation of what?

This universe!  :D

Are you suggesting that God may not have created more than one universe? Could it not be possible that there are as many universes as grains of sand? Of course it could and certainly not unlikely, because surely the number of grains of sand is finite, yet God himself is not.

However, you do bring up a great point, and it has a lot to do with the creation of the universe we know, in six days.

If there is no time outside of creation, then God cannot exist prior to our creation, because without time, then can be no beginning? Right?   ;D

No! :)   

Titus 1:2 a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

But He did exist, and therefore is NOT reliant on speed or gravity. Time is relative, God the Father is Eternal.

I had a little fun with this, please do not take offense. :)

Yours in Christ,
Darren
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mrsnacks

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God is love right. But doesn't love exist only between at least two people or beings. God cannot be love if He is just one person. Isn't love a relationship ? I hope you understand what I am trying to say here. If God the Father is by Himself without the Son then how can God love ? Or express His love. Does this make sense or am I one sandwich short of a picnic.  ???
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gmik

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What if you were looking down at an ant hill and wanted to help them.  So you yelled at them how to build a better one.  Of course, they took no mind of you at all.  So you make a bette one next to theirs and hope they get the hint. No??  How do we communicate our desire to help the ants?  Only one way.  We must become an ant so we can talk to them.
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mari_et_pere

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Quote
God is love right. But doesn't love exist only between at least two people or beings. God cannot be love if He is just one person. Isn't love a relationship ? I hope you understand what I am trying to say here. If God the Father is by Himself without the Son then how can God love ? Or express His love. Does this make sense or am I one sandwich short of a picnic. 

Snacks, no offense, but I gotta 100% disagree with ya. God loves us, no doubt. But do all men love Him? Heck no some absolutely hate Him. There's no two-way relationship there.

What about the dysfunctional teen like I once was? Their parents love them dearly, but they feel nothing but disdain for their parents. Once again, love street is one way.

I have an adopted cousin who went missing many years ago. His parents love him but there is zero relationship there.

I see what you're getting at, but I just wanted to say I think God's love isn't dependent on wether He has a son or not, or a relationship with that son. Just my two cents.

Matt
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John9362

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Begotten of God. Does this truly mean Jesus was a created being. I thought that Christ was eternally existing in the Father being that God is eternal without beginning. This is the last new topic for awhile.   .............You Promise !!...LOL ..LOL !!  ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D

John 9362 ;D
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gzeigler

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Begotten takes on a mean greater than created. 

Begotten draws from within, to be birth, conceived, born.

Created beings, simplistically stated, are not conceived as much as draw together from external means.

The angels are created.

Jesus was begotten.  He was 'born' of God the Father.  He is an heir.

Grace and peace,
gtz
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mrsnacks

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Begotten of God. Does this truly mean Jesus was a created being. I thought that Christ was eternally existing in the Father being that God is eternal without beginning. This is the last new topic for awhile.   .............You Promise !!...LOL ..LOL !!  ;D :D ;D :D ;D ;D :D

John 9362 ;D





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You didn't ask me what I mean by "awhile." I will tell you. " Awhile " to mrsnacks means until I post again Lord willing. :D
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mrsnacks

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Begotten takes on a mean greater than created. 

Begotten draws from within, to be birth, conceived, born.

Created beings, simplistically stated, are not conceived as much as draw together from external means.

The angels are created.

Jesus was begotten.  He was 'born' of God the Father.  He is an heir.

Grace and peace,
gtz





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So "begotten" always refers to created ? Is most here in agreement that Jesus is a created being ? That JEsus had a beginning. If this is so God the Father could've begotten more Sons if He wanted to but chose one ?
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Kat

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Hi mrsnacks,

This is from the fall conference in Mobile last year.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg27962.html#msg27962 -------

Where did Jesus Christ come from?  Well was it the Trinity, the third part of the Trinity?  A third part of the Trinity, equal with the other two parts of the God Trinity?  NO, He came from God.

So in John 13:3  “and that HE CAME FROM GOD,” that’s where Jesus came from, GOD.
Not from the Godhead, not from the Trinity, FROM GOD.

John 16:27  “for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me and have believed that I CAME OUT FROM GOD.”  (Just like Eve came out from Adam)
v. 28  “I CAME FORTH FROM THE FATHER, and have come into the world.”

1 John 4:9  “In this the love of God was revealed in us, because GOD SENT HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON into the world that we might live through Him.”

v. 14  And we have seen and testify that THE FATHER SENT THE SON to be the Savior of the world.

Heb 1:2  “has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom HE HAS APPOINTED heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds,”

If Jesus Christ was part of a triune god, a trinity, then nobody’s appointed anybody, nobody is sending anybody.  There is not one greater authority in a perfect equilateral triangle.  But Christ said, My Father is greater than I, (John 14:28).

Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

The beginning was the Word of God,  what did God began with?  Jesus Christ, right?  The Word, that’s what God began with, Jesus Christ is the beginning.

In Gen. 1:1 it says, “In the beginning[ Heb: reshiyth - spec. Firstfruits] God [Heb: Elohim] created the heavens and the earth”
 
We read in 1 Cor 15:20  “But now Christ has risen from the dead, and has become the Firstfruit of those who slept.”

That Jesus Christ “became the Firstfruit of those who slept.”  Who is the Firstfurit?  JESUS CHRIST.

Where did Jesus come from:  John 7:29; John 13:3; John 9:42; John 16: 27-28; 1 John 4:9, 14.
 
Jesus was created by the Father; Heb 1:4; Rev 3:14.  Jesus Christ was created and than became the Creator of all.  So when you talk about Jesus Christ, you are talking about God.  But you are talking about the One who was begotten in the God family, and one who could be emptied and formed such as a man.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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