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[jackson]

I'm having trouble expaining this concisely.  I found myself having a discussion on "eternity" the other day with a co-worker and I just don't feal that he left that conversation with a good idea of what point I was trying to make.  He was very open to the idea of universal salvation but I'm sure I didn't do him justice with my explaination.  I need to tell it in 25 words or less .

I think he understood my refutations of Chistianitys "eternal damnation" theory, but talking about eternal (aionios) life is where he became confused.  "What does it mean to have life for only a period of time?",he asked.  Well my answer only confounded him...Does anybody else ever get those "so you think your'e holyer than thou" looks if you even mention the "elect"?

Love a little help.

Jackson

[Kat]

Hi Jackson,

Here are a couple of Ray's emails, I think you can use them to help you get your wording down. 

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=93.msg309#msg309 ---

Dear Doug:

There doesn't seem to be one orthodox Christian in the world who understands that what the King James calls "eternal life" should be translated "eonian life" (or "age-abiding life") because the verses that speak of eonian life have nothing whatsoever to do with LIVING FOREVER.  Eonian is a special REWARD and GIFT from God and has to do with rulership in His Kingdom, not with HOW LONG we will live. The eons (or ages) come to an end (I Cor. 15:24-25), therefore, our reigning over the nations with Jesus will also end.

What then? Do we DIE, as many teachers and Christians have foolishly insisted would have to be the outcome of "eonian life?"  No, we do not DIE, but we do not die because God gave us "eternal life." Nowhere does it say God gives anyone "eternal life."  The reason we don't die after the eons is because God has given us "IMMORTALITY (I Cor. 15:53). 

Certainly our salvation IS eternal, its just that the Bible nowhere says its "eternal," but rather that we are given "immortality."  Therefore it is WRONG to translate a word into "eternal" when it doesn't mean "eternal," even though after the eonian life, falsely called eternal life, ends.  I've explained this many times on our site along with analogies to help clarify it. You really need to read all the material on our site if you want to know ALL that we teach on our site.

God be with you,

Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2166.0.html --------

Comment: The concept of "eternity" is foreign to the Holy Scriptures. There is virtually nothing that is outside of the time periods known as aions. There are just a couple of hints regarding life beyond the ages of time. Luke speaks of things pertaining to the Kingdom, not coming to an end. And Paul tells us that in resurrection we will have "incorruption" and "immortality" signifying "deathlessness," but neither word has to do with time itself. Paul also speaks of a time in which God will be "ALL in all." That is the extent to which the Scriptures even hint of eternity or anything beyond the ages of time.

II Cor. 4:18 is neither speaking of "deathless" or "everlasting," as you suggest. It is speaking of what is happening now, in our life of flesh, and what will happen during the ages of our reign with Christ in the kingdom of God. The things of this life, we SEE daily. The things pertaining to the Kingdom of God are as yet "NOT seen." Again, it is not even speaking of what is "visible" and "Invisible," but rather what is NOW SEEN as compared with things "eonian" and NOT YET SEEN, which when seen will not be temporary, but will last through whole eons of time. And all that is perfected through the Kingdom of God and the reign of Christ bringing all enemies into subjection, will last on PAST the eons, and will have NO END.

The next great event in prophecy is not eternity, but rather the END of this eon and the BEGINNING of the next—the one in which the very elect will reign with Christ. There is no sense in jumping into eternity when as yet, we have numerous ages to yet live and administer God’s government and His Great Judgment. And so, what is not yet seen, is "eonian" (pertaining to the eons), and not "eternity" as you and the King James suggests in this verse."

God be with you,

Ray 
------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[jackson]

Kat, U R da bomb!!!!!!

I knew I could count on you for some much needed guidence!

This helps a great deal.  I think I may have gotten a little to wordy with my explaination, but as usual Ray keeps it pithy.

Thanks again Kat

Jackson

[seminole]

Jackson, Go over and read what Rocky posted under baptized for who. It may help you.
Nole

[mari_et_pere]

This might not make sense to anyone other than myself, but I kind of look at it like this:

When I think of Aionios or Eonian, I think of time being split. An example is my life so far: One "age" of my life was before school, another age was during my school years, another age was after school and living on my own, and now another age in which I'm married with children.

That's a microscopic view. On a grand scale I see this Aionios/Eonian debate much the same way. Age after age, time continues. When one age ends another begins, thus time doesn't stop, and furthers toward "eternity".

I may sound the fool right now. I don't know. 

Matt

[seminole]

Makes more sense to me than all the greek and hebrew stuff I've read about.
Nole

[Kat]

Hi Matt,

That's a microscopic view. On a grand scale I see this Aionios/Eonian debate much the same way. Age after age, time continues. When one age ends another begins, thus time doesn't stop, and furthers toward "eternity".

You have a good way a putting things 
I thought this was a good repersentation of how the ages go forward.  It is good to have all these perspectives, sometimes that's what is needed to get to a full understanding.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Evan600]

I'm having trouble expaining this concisely.  I found myself having a discussion on "eternity" the other day with a co-worker and I just don't feal that he left that conversation with a good idea of what point I was trying to make.  He was very open to the idea of universal salvation but I'm sure I didn't do him justice with my explaination.  I need to tell it in 25 words or less .

I think he understood my refutations of Chistianitys "eternal damnation" theory, but talking about eternal (aionios) life is where he became confused.  "What does it mean to have life for only a period of time?",he asked.  Well my answer only confounded him...Does anybody else ever get those "so you think your'e holyer than thou" looks if you even mention the "elect"?

Love a little help.

Jackson

It sure is difficult to talk to people so much of the time!  I spoke with someone today that is sooo into church.  She lived in Nashville for a time, and I told her I just went there a couple weeks ago.  She asked me why, and I told her a bible conference.  Then, she started telling me how her ex was not into church.  Then I had to explain how I don't go to church because she asked.  LOL

Anyway, it's almost like where do you start.  There are so many false doctrines.  I gave a list, and I think that I overwhelmed her.  She does want to have a bible study sometime though.  She seems open, sort of. 

When I talk to someone about the Elect, I try not to imply that I am the Elect.  I try to place myself as an equal with them.  I try to not focus on 'somebody else,' but on 'us.'  Does that make sense?  It's all basically 'energy sensitivity.'

As far as aionios goes, first I say that there was never the word 'eternity' in the Greek or Hebrew.  Then, kind of like what you did.  I think Matt put it a good way

God bless!!

[jerreye]

Hi Matt, perhaps I misread you, but when you say:

That's a microscopic view. On a grand scale I see this Aionios/Eonian debate much the same way. Age after age, time continues. When one age ends another begins, thus time doesn't stop, and furthers toward "eternity".

...do you beleive that there will bo no conclusion of all ages? In other words, do you believe that there will ALWAYS be "ages" (endless amount of ages), for all eternity?

[Chris R]

...Does anybody else ever get those "so you think your'e holyer than thou" looks if you even mention the "elect"?

Love a little help.

Jackson

Always remember that it is God that does the choosing, Having knowledge of some truths do not qualify anyone, it is a process, Even the Apostle Paul knew this was beyond his control. [1Cor 9:27]

But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Peace

Chris R

[jackson]

Thanks Chris, great reminder.

Let me restate my position.  I've never (atleast not conciously) told any one that I was a member of the elect or any thing else.  Nobody knows what tomarrow may bring.  I believe looking upon another as an equal, a brothe or sister is the only way to even understand the concept of an elect. It's just that the whole idea is so foreign to most people that I come off "high and mighty" just talking about it.  Consequintly I don't.  I rarely let the initial conversation get that far for fear of frightining them off.  I don't want to scare them away from God. Do you know what I mean?

[mari_et_pere]

...do you beleive that there will bo no conclusion of all ages? In other words, do you believe that there will ALWAYS be "ages" (endless amount of ages), for all eternity?

Hmm.........what I believe is that time won't end. The scriptures don't say we'll someday come the last age where everything just..................

..................stops.

I'm sure there will be a final age, yes. Will that age end?.......................

..............or stop?

Matt

[Chris R]

Thanks Chris, great reminder.

Let me restate my position.  I've never (atleast not conciously) told any one that I was a member of the elect or any thing else.  Nobody knows what tomarrow may bring.  I believe looking upon another as an equal, a brothe or sister is the only way to even understand the concept of an elect. It's just that the whole idea is so foreign to most people that I come off "high and mighty" just talking about it.  Consequintly I don't.  I rarely let the initial conversation get that far for fear of frightining them off.  I don't want to scare them away from God. Do you know what I mean?

Hi,

I sure do, After learning the truths taught on this website, i wanted EVERYONE to have ears to hear, but as the years went bye, i find that only those asking questions are really seeking, Usually they will ask again for the name of the web-site, Or they might start a conversation with "what was that you were saying"!

Keep reading the scriptures and Rays teachings as i do, and we will both be prepared for those asking questions.

Peace

Chris R

[gmik]

Good conversation.  Me?  I don't say much....like you say, where would you even start??  I must say most don't even ask, they don't care where I am at-they assume I am as stagnant as they!!

Just today, some ladies from my old church, saw me and said that they heard my daughter was having twins.  Before I could say anything they went on about this pastor/evangelist giving an end time prophecy about Christian women who have had miscarriages from the enemy would now be carrying twins from God to make up for it!!

Well, my daughter did have a miscarriage about 6 months before her pregnancy w/ the boys.

Anyway, the point.  They just kept on blabbing as tho I were where they are spiritually. Didn't ask anything and assumed I would be so "thrilled" about this prophecy.  I never said anything different. It was 3 of them and 1 of me

[indianabob]

You're a wise woman Gena,
Especially since you were outnumbered.

Keep up the good work and trust the leading of God's spirit.

Bob

[gmik]

Thanks Bob!  Say hi to Doris!