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[hillsbororiver]

Discernment is a subject that comes up rather frequently, as it should if we are truly seeking His treasure that is buried in diverse places.

Are we always prepared to discern His Truths no matter what vessel contains them?

Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

These verses seem to be self explanatory but are they? I think most of us have learned that so much scripture that has a valid physical (first) value also has a deeper spiritual value. This may be even more prevalent in the Old Testament but it still holds true in the New Testament.

Isn't it true that it is easier to take admonishment or advice from someone we have an easy repoire with? If we believe God is in control of all things, that He leaves nothing to chance or our own flawed perceptions do you think there are times He uses others that we might not necessarily be drawn to as a means to show us our own weaknesses or new (to us) revelations?

If we believe we are sincere in seeking His will is it possible to reject an answer from Him because we are not particularly fond of or perceive to have a "loving" relationship with a brother or sister?

Here we have our Lord stating that even evil men give good things to their own, I am sure that encompasses taking care of their own kids, friends and those who show them respect, gratitude or reverence, but how do these same folks react to a difference of opinion or an act they do not embrace or want? Is this another way we are tested? A way to either separate His Spirit within us from our carnal nature or displace our carnal nature with His Spirit?

What if we were to pray for an answer to a problem or a question and the answer was revealed through someone we were not really drawn to or tend to think is unworthy in some form or fashion, what if the Lord willed that was the person He was answering our prayer through? He has done many a "strange" (to our way of thinking) thing, has He not?

Maybe there are too many questions posed here but answer or respond to as many as you may want, this is not a test!   

I was thinking about this the last few days and of course any input would be greatly appreciated.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Robin]

If I feel something welling up in me from what someone else posts I know I need to take a look at me. If I don't like something about someone else I usually know that the same thing I dislike about them is something in myself. It is usually pride that kicks up every time. It's like looking in a mirror and blaming it all on the mirror. This is not the same as discerning truth that someone posts. This is more about the messenger.

I believe it relates to this scripture.

Romans 2:1
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.


I am still guilty of doing this sometimes and try to catch it immediately and ask God to show me my own carnality and ask him to deal with it within ME and not the person who is triggering it. The more God deals with ME the less I feel judgment toward others and I'm more able to listen to what they have to say and respond in a loving manner. I always find that it is me that needs to find repentance, not the person who is triggering my pride.

Even people who don't trigger me can speak truth that is initially offensive until I can digest it and work it through. Truth IS offensive to our carnal nature and I'm so glad for that. God doesn't let up until he brings me to repentance.

The answers to my prayers are usually quite different than what I expected. God gives me true answers and not the answers that satisfy the idols of my heart. It has not been a pleasant experience. Some of the people he used in my life were like fingernails on a chalk board.

I hope this was not off topic.

Thanks,
MG

[ciy]

Joe and MG

I agree.  I am also aware that I may be in the middle of not only my trial or purging, but I may be part of someone else's trial or purging.  What God has caused me to do was not only for my understanding, but I must be patient and realize that it is all working in all.
Eve could have thought, "I really messed up, but I even messed up Adam's life too.  If it had not been for me Adam would be fine."  (This may be a weak example, but I think it works) No Eve was caused to eat and also she was caused to cause Adam to eat. 
This thought is a thought that really puts me at peace.  Sometimes I am Eve and sometimes I am Adam.

CIY

[YellowStone]

Dear brother Joe,

Your post is both insightful and sobering. I thank the Spirit for whom words you spoke.

I very much liked your inclusion of the evil helping their loved ones; this fact is so often over looked.

1Jo 3:17   If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
 
1Jo 3:18   Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
 
1Jo 3:19   This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence

Could the words of John also reflect Spiritual Understanding and if one sees a brother in need but has no pity on him, where is the love? How should one respond to to evil? Should one lash out in defence, or turn the other cheek, knowing full well that the road is narrow and the path is rough and all is of God.

Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.  

Mat 5:40  And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have [thy] cloke also.

Mat 5:41  And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

This sounds like wonderful advice, there can be no ill feelings, animosity or hostility if we have used our ability to discern correctly, not by emotions of the yet carnal mind, but rather by Spirit of Truth for it is this Spirit that allows us to see things through different eyes. This is how we can we turn our other cheek, for any attack on us can and should be seen for what it is; an opportunity to show the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness (Gal 5:22)

This is why Christ continues by stating:

Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Remember the days perhaps long ago   When one had the eyes of a child, their was magic and wonder everywhere. One had not yet learned of responsibility, everything was right there for ones enjoyment and one could marvel at the simplest things. It is with such eyes that one sees spiritually. The same magical world appears, beauty that may have been over looked for years prior, is suddenly everywhere one turns. It's all wondrous, because one knows full well that is free to be enjoyed. Enjoyed, because one knows that all responsibility belongs to God; their is no more: I, Me, My or Mine.

One with childlike spiritual eyes, upon hearing someone speaking, does not automatically assume that it is a personal attack; on the contrary, because with the spirit their is no "I". One cannot get angry without the emotional attachment of Me, Myself and I.

So what is the fruit of the spirit?

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness

Clearly any word out of ones mouth or action towards EVEN an evil person that does not align with the above, is not indicative of turning the other cheek.

Joe, as you asked: "Are we always prepared to discern His Truths no matter what vessel contains them?"

The carnal in one may shout YES, but the proof is in the fruit and aligns perfectly with a proverb of old.

Pro 16:21 The wise in heart are called discerning, and pleasant words promote instruction.

Thank you so much for a very discerning thread Joe. You have provided a wonderful, opportunity to fully realize that all is of God, and all is for our SPIRITUAL benefit.

Your brother in Christ,

Darren

[hillsbororiver]

Dear MG, CIY & Darren,

Thank you for your consideration and replies, you know the things we are speaking of are not new and God has been showing this about ourselves even from Genesis when the jealousy of Cain and of Joseph's brothers had some very negative consequences, the anguish of the perpetrators became just as real as the suffering of the objects of their jealousy.

Gen 42:21  And they said one to another, We are verily guilty concerning our brother, in that we saw the anguish of his soul, when he besought us, and we would not hear; therefore is this distress come upon us.
 
This does not always stem from jealousy, obviously, but contention or even being a "respecter of men" by reason of compatible personalities or similar circumstances in life or any reason is something to be wary of, possibly blinding us or being a witness against ourselves.

Deu 1:16  And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.
 
Deu 1:17  Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.

Deu 1:18  And I commanded you at that time all the things which ye should do.

There are times when there are real issues to be dealt with in regard to how something is said or done and when a wrong may be more than just a perception, when that is the case we have the Word of our Lord to guide us.

Mat 18:15  Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Mat 18:16  But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a publican.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[joyful1]

Joe--
I'm still trying to get a grip on your original question....
perhaps you could pose a hypothetical situation, in which a certain type of "vessel" brings a certain type of "message" to another certain "vessel"--
(this whole conversation is reminding me of that whole silver ephod, Babylon thingy you once questioned)...but back to the original question...
Joyce

[hillsbororiver]

Joe--
I'm still trying to get a grip on your original question....
perhaps you could pose a hypothetical situation, in which a certain type of "vessel" brings a certain type of "message" to another certain "vessel"--
(this whole conversation is reminding me of that whole silver ephod, Babylon thingy you once questioned)...but back to the original question...
Joyce

Hi Joyce,

I can veer all over the place with the very best of them Sister! 

What I wanted to discuss is how we can sometimes not see some wisdom, or a truth or a revelation because who it is that is presenting it to us, for whatever reason we can become jaded or calloused in the way we see some of our brethren. I believe there are times God will use people we tend to shy away from or even not be particularly drawn to to bring us knowledge and how we react or respond to it is a witness either for us or against us.

You know it seems that all things in this life have a place in our spiritual growth, how we act and respond to our family, friends, coworkers, strangers on the road, in the stores, on the street. You know how some (not all) in the churches are Sunday for an hour christians who don't really take heed of or have any interest in those who are not in their group, their denomination.

My question was, do we ever catch ourselves doing that? I know I have and it is something that can sneak up on a person and be virtually unnoticed to the person doing it.

Discernment in our interactions and treating others as we would like to be treated, truly listening and keeping in mind that the Lord sacrificed Himself for all men therefore all men are bought and paid for by Christ and we disrespect Him if and when we devalue any of the brethren. Not that we should be still when heresy or outright deception is presented but we can challenge an action or statement without forgetting the ultimate value of everyone in the eyes of God.

Gee, I hope I didn't just make it worse!   

His Peace to you Sister,

Joe       

[mari_et_pere]

Deep thread! I don't even know if I have anything to add to the great responses. I think we probably miss opportunities every single day.

I think discerning correctly relies a lot on our attitude. See if I can keep ya following me on this. I don't trust myself to say this right but here it goes. 

In my 32 years I've had a lot of "upstanding christians" shatter people's emotions. I have so many examples I can't even think of which one to use! These supposed good, prayer warrior type women being totally nasty to others, sometimes within their precious church walls!

On the other hand, I've had people who were rough and tough, down and out, beer drinking, cussing folks who had hearts of gold!

I'll give a good example of the former. A guy named Jon in my church was seeing a girl named Erin. Jon never thought it was all that serious, but she had other plans. Erin's mom was a huge figure in the church. You know how some folks are back row every sunday and that's it, and others are up front speaking, testifying, holy fire burning bla blahblah.....well Jon started dating my sister in law. They hit it off and eventually announced their engagement. Well the woman I spoke of.......how do I say this? She got so nasty, so vile, so over the top jealous and angry that she became a total fool. (I'd already seen her fake tongue talking "look at me be holy" testimonies in front of the church was nothing but religious addiction.) While others were busy talking about how shocking her behavior and jealousy was, I was busy thinking "I knew it. I knew it. She's no good. She's fake." And I'd laugh inside at her.

How wrong was she? BUT HOW WRONG WAS I?!?!? How am I any better to laugh and scoff inside, even when technically I'm right about her being a nutjob and a faker. I'm not better for I'm created equal! And the Lord knows all I've done wrong. They were different wrongs in a different setting, but wrong all the same.

If this woman came to this forum and started pulling her fake "look at me I am here and holy" wool over your eyes, I'd rush out to tell you how fake she is, how she only does it to puff herself up. And while I would be right, I'm not the person to do that.

I feel that I'm nobody to tell any of you anything. I was a crazy, crazy teen/young adult! CRAZY! I should be in prison still. While I've confessed before Jesus Christ and am forgiven, I'm also still guilty. I've done things that would make you think twice about me I'm afraid.

But even though I've done some terribly stupid and evil things, I've had people tell me how much I've helped them. HUH? Me? I don't understand why God would use me at all. But I'm honored that He has. At the same time, he's using that woman who's full of herself and lives to prove her religious dominance over others everyday. He uses us all, wether we're righteous or evil, heavy metal singer or choir singer, murderer or social worker.

I guess what I'm saying after a long winded response is: Our attitude shouldn't make us look AT the person or their actions, but it should make us HEAR what is coming out of their mouth.

Mat 12:34  O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

Those beer drinking, cussing, hard living people I know, sometimes they have a more pure heart than the respected church goers that I know.

Mat 12:35  A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure [OF THE HEART] bringeth forth evil things.

You'd be suprised who you'll find a good heart in sometimes. 

Sorry for the ramling post! 

Matt

[Deborah-Leigh]

Joe

Perhaps this comment fits here in your thread.

I have been thinking about that Scripture that says Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling. Now before anyone thinks what has that got to do with your questions....just pause a moment. WHAT IF the words WORK OUT mean....find out...or figure it out...are you in the first or second resurrection?

Then we have to look at our choices that are caused by His Hand to find out where He is setting our Salvation. Either in the LOF or our painful lessons and judgments in this life. Like Russian Roulette....gun at the head sort of fear and trepidation....if I pull the trigger of finding out will I be shot dead or will I have another chance at life.

I have been studying Job and he said in a question to his friends Job 21 : 30 The evil man is now spared in the day of calamity and destruction, and they are led forth and away on the day of God's wrath.

So if one is feeling slighted or disappointed at where our lessons are ensuing, it may be that we are not going to be led forth and away on the day of God's wrath into the LOF!


Peace be to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Joe

Perhaps this comment fits here in your thread.

I have been thinking about that Scripture that says Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling. Now before anyone thinks what has that got to do with your questions....just pause a moment. WHAT IF the words WORK OUT mean....find out...or figure it out...are you in the first or second resurrection?

Then we have to look at our choices that are caused by His Hand to find out where He is setting our Salvation. Either in the LOF or our painful lessons and judgments in this life. Like Russian Roulette....gun at the head sort of fear and trepidation....if I pull the trigger of finding out will I be shot dead or will I have another chance at life.

I have been studying Job and he said in a question to his friends Job 21 : 30 The evil man is now spared in the day of calamity and destruction, and they are led forth and away on the day of God's wrath.

So if one is feeling slighted or disappointed at where our lessons are ensuing, it may be that we are not going to be led forth and away on the day of God's wrath into the LOF!

Peace be to you

Arcturus

Arcturus, you pose a very interesting question: WHAT IF the words WORK OUT mean....find out...or figure it out...are you in the first or second resurrection?

Your question I feel is based on Philippans 2:12

Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

As you say, our choices are caused by his hand.

Phl 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

For God's good pleasure. Could this possibly mean that God puts one in a position of great amusement to him?

I am sure that He has smiled or perhaps outright laughed at some of my futile attempts of being righteous in His eyes.

But all of this aside, by what measure should we gauge our choices? Well Paul offers the following in the next two verses.

Phl 2:14  Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Phl 2:15  That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

The above offers enough information to perform a pretty good spot check at any given moment.

Paul uses the words Murmurings and Disputings:

Murmurings: goggysmos [G1111] - Pronunciation gon-gü-smo's
 
1) a murmur, murmuring, muttering
    a) a secret debate
    b) a secret displeasure not openly avowed

Disputing:  dialogismos [G1260] - Pronunciation dē-ä-lo-gē-smo's
 
2) a deliberating, questioning about what is true
    a) hesitation, doubting
    b) disputing, arguing


If one finds that they are harboring any such tenancies, then surely one is not blameless and neither harmless.

In fact, such tenancies are in direct conflict with the Spirit of Truth.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness

Surely then, if our choices, thoughts, words, actions or motives do not bare the fruits of: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness then we by all means should tremble and fear.

But, we are not without hope: For we must be like children, meek and mild; fully realizing that one cannot guarantee ones salvation free of the LOF, but rather God who works all according to His will. Therefore, as innocent children being meek and mild, worrying not of the future knowing that the responsibility is not theirs to bare. Such children know that they have no control over what tomorrow might bring and become not anxious. For...

Ecc 2:22 What does a man get for all the toil and anxious striving with which he labors under the sun? 

Therefore...
Phl 4:6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

Requests like asking and petitioning for wisdom that allows walking and talking the fruits of the Spirit.

I believe that this is the charter that we have been given.

I think this fits well with your end statement:   

So if one is feeling slighted or disappointed at where our lessons are ensuing, it may be that we are not going to be led forth and away on the day of God's wrath into the LOF!

I could be wrong!  Comments welcome

Love to you in Christ,
Darren

[hillsbororiver]

In my 32 years I've had a lot of "upstanding christians" shatter people's emotions. I have so many examples I can't even think of which one to use! These supposed good, prayer warrior type women being totally nasty to others, sometimes within their precious church walls!

On the other hand, I've had people who were rough and tough, down and out, beer drinking, cussing folks who had hearts of gold!

You'd be suprised who you'll find a good heart in sometimes. 

Matt

Hi Matt,

You are so right about that! This has been my experience as well, not to say there aren't any helpful and sincere people in the churches, I have found some very compassionate, true friends that would put themselves at risk of loss by helping others out, not to stay out of hell (non believers, at least in a traditional sense) or because they need to preach salvation to some poor soul that is down and out but do it because they would truly appreciate someone doing the same for them or a loved one if the need be, no payback, no promise of reward, no accolades, just a sense of brotherly duty.

Great observation Brother,

Joe

So if one is feeling slighted or disappointed at where our lessons are ensuing, it may be that we are not going to be led forth and away on the day of God's wrath into the LOF!

Yes exactly! If we are presumptuous enough to reject out of hand an answer to our prayer or another piece of His treasure that is understanding His Word we will be held accountable for it, I would be in a deep despair on that fateful day to have to answer the Lord that I rejected a gift from Him because I was not very fond of the vessel He chose to present it to me.

Thanks Arcturus,

Joe

But, we are not without hope: For we must be like children, meek and mild; fully realizing that one cannot guarantee ones salvation free of the LOF, but rather God who works all according to His will. Therefore, as innocent children being meek and mild, worrying not of the future knowing that the responsibility is not theirs to bare. Such children know that they have no control over what tomorrow might bring and become not anxious.

Mat 18:3  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Yes Darren,

That sums up the gift of faith and how we should be wide eyed and receptive to the things our Heavenly Father bring our way, just like a small child who has that unwavering faith in their earthly parents we should have that same faith (coupled with discernment) in our walk through this world.

Thanks for your responses.

His Peace and Wisdom to you all,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

The point I was trying to underline is that the spiritual battle we are fighting is more internal than external, that the thoughts we ourselves embrace and the way we tend to view others is more likely to stunt our spiritual growth than anything another man can say or even do to us.

Many smooth and comforting things spoken come from a deceitful heart with an agenda far removed from our Lord, on the other hand many contrarian views and statements come from this same carnal heart that wars with the Spirit within. Nothing said by anyone can truly affect us unless we embrace it or let it consume us, there is wisdom to be gained from everyone if we are like Solomon and fervently pray for discernment to judge words and events.

Who is our own worst enemy, our brothers and sisters or ourselves?

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe 

[YellowStone]

Hi Joe,

You really hit on a golden truth here. The whole world is full of excuses. I could have if; he made me do it; she looked at me funny; I didn't like the tone of his voice; I didn't sleep well last night; all of these words are just all to common.

As you so rightly said: "Nothing said by anyone can truly affect us unless we embrace it or let it consume us, "

No one can make me mad, no one or NOTHING can make me angry and lose my temper, unless I choose to do so. Oh I am sure some will say that if God wants you angry, you will be angry; you have no choice. Really!  Are not all events provided for our growth, both physically and spiritually? I think so.

The whole Scriptures provide ample instruction on how to act, to be meek, mild and humble; they also explain that if one is wanting in strength, wisdom and perhaps patience, then all one need do is ask and it shall be given (assuming all faith of course) Ref: Luke 11:9

So the next time one begins to feel anger well up deep inside, all they need to do is stop and look who is choosing this to happen; they really might be surprised. Anger, frustration, impatience are personal habits and should be seen for what they are. Carnal attachments.

Many Thanks Joe,

Your brother Darren

[mari_et_pere]

Joe and Darren,

You both have hit the nail on the head with this! Joe you said that our spiritual battle is more internal than external. How true! I think the state the world is in today, from the big things like war to small scale things like the local crime in your town, is an external affect of internal battles.

I don't want to sound like a New Age nut here, so I hope nobody confuses this for what it's not meant to be, BUT....collectively, the internal lives of humans is what causes the world to be what it is. Or should I say it is HOW GOD CAUSES the world to be. That happens by the internal being played out externally.

If I were to get offended at one of you, and punch you in your face, that would be my internal anger coming out externally, thus affecting the world. Or at least YOUR world. Maybe mine also after you were done beating me up for punching you in the face. 

But you see what I'm saying here? Over time, with all humankind's internal thoughts becoming external actions or speech, we have what we have. A corrupt world with corrupt actions. Or, a corrupt religious system such as TBN or your local church. I think you see where I'm going with this. It could be taken a million different directions into every facet of society.

Now that I'm done rambling, I have no idea how this post got to where I just brought it to.  See, sometimes I should probably keep my internal from becoming external. 

Matt

[aktikt]

Matt,

I think Prov 23:7 speaks to these issues, "For as he thinketh in his heart, so [is] he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart [is] not with thee." 

Strange how what a person is thinking sometimes produces their action and sometimes not.  The double minded man (James 1) unstable in all his ways says one thing, but his heart is on something else.  While the righteous, who's eye is single, speaks exactly as he is.  Only when our houses come crashing down from being built on the sand can we speak as we are because God has removed and is removing and will remove our pretense from us.

I just had another thought, when Jesus says that they all may be one as We are in John 17.  Perhaps, this is an aspect of His meaning.  The oneness meaning truthful.  As if to say, that they all may be truthful as We are.  Wow, that's a cool connection.  I like it.

Josh 


     

[mari_et_pere]

I think Prov 23:7 speaks to these issues, "For as he thinketh in his heart, so [is] he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart [is] not with thee." 

Strange how what a person is thinking sometimes produces their action and sometimes not.  The double minded man (James 1) unstable in all his ways says one thing, but his heart is on something else.  While the righteous, who's eye is single, speaks exactly as he is.  Only when our houses come crashing down from being built on the sand can we speak as we are because God has removed and is removing and will remove our pretense from us.

I just had another thought, when Jesus says that they all may be one as We are in John 17.  Perhaps, this is an aspect of His meaning.  The oneness meaning truthful.  As if to say, that they all may be truthful as We are.  Wow, that's a cool connection.  I like it.

Proverbs 23:7 does speak of things like that yes. Sounds like a warning of hidden intentions. "He" says come eat and drink with me, and he treats you with kindness, but his heart is full of ill intentions.

Why would the double minded man in James 1:8 be unstable in all his ways? Because to some he's one thing, to others he's another. He lies to cover up his double mindedness. He's straddling the fence. We all know how that works. It doesn't. It causes unstableness with both [all] sides.

I assume that your reference from John is John 17:22 where Jesus is in the middle of praying for his disciples.

Joh 17:20  Neither pray I for these alone, [his disciples] but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
Joh 17:21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


 

[ciy]

I think this is a great thread that is deep and wide. 

It is the heart that must be cleansed.  The inside of the cup so to speak.  If we act out our good intentions, i.e. - Make your self be a good husband - instead of being a good husband because the deep desire of your heart is to be a good husband because Christ in you has made you want to be a good husband and you have no control but to be a good husband...THEN (sorry for the rambling) you have cleaned the inside of the cup.  Cleaning the outside of the cup, being a good husband in the flesh profits you nothing.

Let me make sure I am not confusing by just using a good husband as an example.  Proverbs 23:7 connects with the verse in Corinthians that says if you give money to the poor and have not love it is like a clanging cymbol.  It is all about Christ in you.  If you sin in an elevator when no one is looking that is what is in your heart no matter how nice of a person you are to others.

Awesome
Christ in You
CIY

[joyful1]

Right on Ciy, I agree!   

Joe-- I think you summed up the whole thread with this:
"keeping in mind that the Lord sacrificed Himself for all men therefore all men are bought and paid for by Christ and we disrespect Him if and when we devalue any of the brethren."

And I DO hear this...daily! Its as if there is this "inner mirror" ... always reflecting the stage of my development back to me as I converse with others.....I am constantly being made aware of that need to remove the beam from my own eye first!

sorry for the slow response....been MIA for a while ....daughters home on break...yeah!!
joyce