Jesus coming out of the Father means that Christ was created by God ?

[little rock]

so is Christ also wisdom?(proverbs 8:17-32)"i love those who love me,and those who seek me diligently will find me.riches and honour are with me,enduring riches and righteousness.my fruit is better than gold,yes,than fine gold,and my revenue than choice silver.i traverse the way of righteousness,in the midst of the paths of justice,that i may cause those who love me to inherit wealth,that i may fill their treasuries.the Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,before His works of old.i have been established from everlasting(age)from the beginning ,before there was ever an earth.when there were no depths i was brought forth,when there were no fountains abounding with water.before the mountains were settled,before the hills,i was bought forth.while as yet He had not yet made the earth or the fields,or the primal dust of the world.when He prepared the heavens ,I was there,when He drew a circle on the face of the deep,when He established the clouds above,when He strengthened the fountains of the deep.when He assigned to the sea its limit,so that the waters would not transgress His command,when He marked out the foundations of the earth,then I was beside HIm as a master craftsman and I was HIs delight,rejoicing always before HIm rejoicing in His inhabited world and my delight was with the sons of men.now therefore listen to me my children,for blessed are those who keep my ways."
also interesting the verses before speak as a wisdom being a "she".any insight appreciated.
Praise God for he has done (and is still doing) a great and mighty work in me!peace little rock

[Kat]

Hi little rock,

Good scripture 
Whatever attributes that the Father has so does Christ, and whatever you see in Christ is also in the Father, because they are one.

John 17:22  And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[mrsnacks]

Hi Kat : Why do you think this topic regarding the trinity is such a touchy subject.  A subject that will for sure label anyone who doesn't accept the trinity doctrine as a heretic and someone to stay away from. A poison.
I am having a hard time with Jesus being a created being. Jesus having a beginning. So if Jesus was begotten beofre the universe came into existence then time didn't exist so there was no before's or after's right ?
Only eternity. I have no problem with the Holy Spirit not being a third person.

So are the elect begotten ? I know Ray said that God wants a family. Sons and daughters created in His image and likeness.

[GODSown1]

wow!!,
       its good 2 get a mention! lol!:D Thanks Jer & Yes!
       much muchLOVE!! Pera
ps. um... sorry but hav no comment on da Thread lol!, answers look & sound Positivly Right
       BlesSnZ!! xoxoxox

[Kat]

Hi mrsnacks,

Why do you think this topic regarding the trinity is such a touchy subject.  A subject that will for sure label anyone who doesn't accept the trinity doctrine as a heretic and someone to stay away from. A poison.

Those that believe in the trinity are blind to the truth, God has not given it to them to see yet.  They truely believe they are right, and they stand against the truth, which is part of what Christ warned would happen.

Luk 6:22  "Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man!

I am having a hard time with Jesus being a created being. Jesus having a beginning. So if Jesus was begotten before the universe came into existence then time didn't exist so there was no before's or after's right?

The way I understand it, Christ was the beginning of God's creation.  How much 'time' He was with the Father before He got started on creating the world, I don't know.

Rev 3:14  "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of God's creation'.

God brought Christ into being, that through Him all of the physical world could be created.  Christ is who God uses to accomplish His plan for humanity.  It was Christ that created the universe, Christ that was the God of the OT.  Christ is doing exactly what the Father desires, because they are One, so are in perfect harmony.  And Christ is the One who does all things for us, until all are brought to the knowledge of the truth, then He will turn it all back over to His Father.

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
v. 16  For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17  And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
v. 18  And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

1Co 15:28  Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

Now, we are begotten, which is the promise of the inheritance, if we remain faithful to the end.

Eph 1:13  In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
v. 14  who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3888.msg29544#msg29544 ------------

There is but one word in the Greek manuscripts to represent "begotten," and "born."  Numerous Scriptures tell us that we are given in this life, only the ernest or downpayment of God's Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13-14). Furthermore, Jesus told Necodemus that when one IS ACTUALLY "born again" he is like the wind (John 3:3-8). Christians are not powerful and invisible as the wind is, in this life. From these two truths, we can establish that we are "begotten" of God's Spirit in this life, but we will not be "BORN of God's Spirit" until the resurrection to immortality (I Cor. 15:42-54).
        God be with you,
        Ray
---------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[humblebob]

Hi to all from Humble-Bob. With regard to the Trinity:

Does not Revelation chapters 1 and 2 disclose that Jesus, the Son of God, may be properly identified as the Supreme God (i.e., of equal divinity with the Father)?  In Revelation 1, the Speaker addressing John identifies Himself as both "the Alpha and the Omega" (1.11) and also as He who "died, but see, I am alive forevermore" (1.18).  And in 1.8, we find that "the Alpha and the Omega" is also "the Lord God" and "the Almighty."  In Revelation 2.8 we find that He who "died and came to life again" is also identified as "the First and the Last."  And Isaiah 44.6 identifies "the First and the Last" with "God"---not just "a God" but as the one, unique, unparalleled, unchallenged, unduplicated God.

Moreover, if the Greek in John 1.1 can bear no other construction other than that "God was the Word," then does this verse not confer Deity upon the Son of God?  If Jesus had not thought of Himself as God,  would He not have corrected those who worshipped Him, and corrected those who thought He was equating Himself with God?   

I see no conflict in assigning full deity to the Son of God, and also embracing 1 Corinthians 11.3 and 15.28, which speak of distinctions in the offices of the Father and Son.  In our effort to honor the distinctions between Father and Son in their respective roles, I would rather not jettison clear references to the divinity of the Son. Until I can see clear exegetical reasons for rejecting the divinity of Christ (as opposed to purely philosophical arguments against His deity), I would rather accept His divinity AND His distinctions in office from the Father. I don't believe these two positions are mutually exclusive.

Blessings to you all. Humble-Bob.       
 

[Kat]

Hi Bob,

I would rather not jettison clear references to the divinity of the Son. Until I can see clear exegetical reasons for rejecting the divinity of Christ (as opposed to purely philosophical arguments against His deity), I would rather accept His divinity AND His distinctions in office from the Father. I don't believe these two positions are mutually exclusive.

I'm not sure why you think anyone here does not believe in the divinity of Christ 
Here are a couple of emails from Ray, where he shows Jesus is indeed God and this is Ray's teaching all through his articles and audios.  This is a very basic belief, that I'm sure we all hold.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4519.0.html ------

Dear Mark:
        Two weeks ago I conducted a Bible Conference in Nashville in which I spent a good deal of time discussing just Who and What Jesus Christ is. Jesus in indeed the "God" of the Old Testament. What you and most of Christendom do not understand, is that "God" is neither the first name nor the last name of His Father. Thomas called Jesus "MY GOD" (John 20:28). Jesus emphatically declared that no man at any time has ever seen or HEAR THE VOICE of God His Father (John 1:18; 5:37; Matt. 11:27; John 6:46; Luke 10:22, etc., etc.)
         
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3965.0.html

Okay, listen:  "GOD IS ONE." Now I have a Scripture for that (Gal. 3:20). And this, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our GOD IS ONE LORD" (Deut. 6:4). But Jesus is called "God" also, John 8:28, Heb. 1:8, etc. But then Jesus said this:  "I [one] and My Father [two] are ONE"  Now how do you figure that?  Come to our Nashville Conference and I will spell it out in great detail.
        My first morning lecture will be: IS "THE LORD THY GOD" OF THE OLD TESTAMENT THE SAME IN THE NEW TESTAMENT?  And this thought:  Is "THE LORD said unto MY Lord..." of the Old Testament (Psalm 110:1) the same as "The Lord said unto my Lord..." of the New Testament (Matt. 22:44)?  And just who are these two "Lords?" Are you sure? Can you prove it?  And in as much as no man has EVER seen the Father and no man has EVER heard His voice, EVER; what do we really know about Him?  Do we have record of God the Father every saying anything, ANYWHERE?  Where?  I think you will be in for a shock. You better make plans for Nashville.
--------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Craig]

 

I would like to know the answer to that question too Kat.  Why would you think that Ray or anyone on this forum rejects the divinity of Christ?  Christ is God and of the Father.  And Ray states that many, many times.

Perhaps you may want to read some of Ray's writings again.  I know when I started out, I missed some pretty key points the first time around.

Blessings
Craig

[hillsbororiver]

From: Is God a Closed TRINITY or an Open FAMILY?


http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html


Who and What is Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).

"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).

"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)

"God's CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).

"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).

"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).

I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn't He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let's take them one at a time.

Is Christ God? YES HE IS!

"Yet to the Son [this is GOD speaking]: 'Thy throne, O GOD, is for the eon of the eon..." (Heb. 1:8).

And also:

Who [Jesus], being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging [taking by force or plundering] to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

Is Christ worthy of worship? YES HE IS!

"And lo! A leper, coming to Him, WORSHIPED Him, saying..." (Mat. 8:2),

"lo! One approaching Him [Jesus], a chief, WORSHIPED Him..." (Mat. 9:18),

"Now those in the ship WORSHIP Him, saying, 'truly, God's Son art Thou!'"

"Yet she, coming, WORSHIPS Him, saying, 'Lord, help me!'" (Mat. 15:25).

So Christ is called "God," and did not consider it pillaging to be "equal" with God, and was often "worshiped." So surely, even if Christ is not the third person of a trinity, He must at least be the second person of a duet! SURELY, HE IS NOT! Let me explain.

Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Jesus explains this verse for us:

"Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods'? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,' seeing that I said, 'Son of God am I'? If I am not doing My Father's works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."

Okay then, let's notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn't need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.

Notice that Jesus always acknowledges His subjection to His Father:

"Jesus, being aware that the Father has GIVEN ALL INTO HIS HANDS, and that He came out FROM God and is going away TO God" (John 13:3).

"Now the Father, remaining in Me, He IS DOING HIS WORKS" (John 14:10).

"And the word which you are hearing is NOT Mine, but the Father's Who sends me" (John 14:24).

"I am going to the Father, for THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I" (John 14:28).

"Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, THE SON HIMSELF ALSO SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all" (I Cor. 15:28).

These Scriptures are clear, and there are many more like this. The Father is GREATER than His Son, and the Son will ALWAYS be subjected to His Father. They are NOT two, coequal Gods of a fabled trinity. They are "Father and Son." They are "FAMILY!" And the "spirit of God" is just that, the spirit "OF" God, not "the spirit God." And Jesus Christ has this SAME SPIRIT in Himself also. And it is THIS VERY SPIRIT that God the Father gives to US through His Son, Jesus Christ. It is not difficult to understand if one will simply believe the Scriptures.

Again, I want everyone to take note that when Christ speaks of the close relationship between Himself and His Father, He NEVER includes the "holy spirit" into that relationship! This is surely not an oversight on Christ's part.

Our Lord gives us a beautiful metaphor in these same chapters of John. Jesus says:

"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).