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Author Topic: Worship/song services  (Read 23604 times)

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mari_et_pere

  • Guest
Worship/song services
« on: June 18, 2007, 01:20:15 PM »

My wife came home from church yesterday and told me how great it had been. She said the song service was beautiful and annointed. She said she could feel the presence of God in there. She said it was just amazing.

So I'm left thinking "ugh, I can't say anything but 'oh that's nice, babe.'" I don't want to say that. I want to say "no way, why would He be there?" Am I wrong? Half of me thinks so, half of me doesn't.

Next week my brother in law (her sister's husband) is preaching, so I'm basically automatically expected to be there just because of that, which honestly makes me angry because church isn't about being there for a certain person. But anyway, maybe I'll go, but I feel guilty for going. Imagine that! Guilty for going to church. On the flip side, I feel bad if I don't because my wife is wanting me to go. She's good-hearted and she's got the best of intentions and doesn't realize all that I believe. I'm starting to think this will never ever end.  :(

Anyway I got off track yet again! What do you guys think about the song service that she told me about? I know how I feel about it, but what about you all?
Matt
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2007, 01:43:09 PM »

Hi Matt,

One think I have learned is to never limit God to anything, which means of course that we must not likewise restrict him. Either or, what your wife experienced was of God in one form or another.

As for feeling bad about going to a church, I wouldn't. Is the church anymore evil, derogatory, than where you work, any club that you go too or for that matter the super market you by your food?

Coming out of the church does not necessarily mean come out of the building; rather it means coming out of it's teachings. Which I my friend can see that you have very well.

Eph 6:13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14  Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15  And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16  Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

I am thinking that you are very well equipped to attend the service. Not to learn something new in regard to truth, but rather how to perhaps go over what was said with your wife withthe truth that you have been given.

As for the song service, only God can read the hearts and intent of those present. If their hearts were genuinely seeking and praising God, then perhaps God used this moment to illustrate the difference between heart felt praise and man spelled doctrine. Should not the feelings be the same regardless. Perhpas this would be a very good question to ask your wife. Why does she feel the song serve was so amazing?

Keep us posted :)

Love to you in Christ,

Darren
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CEO

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2007, 02:00:26 PM »

Matt

     Many of the words to praise songs are scriptural.  Yours and my understanding of those scriptures is very different than the praise teams singing them yet they are the sriptures and are the truth.  I enjoy them.  You have left your first love mentally, physically visiting her occassionly does not show you accept her.  Hearing her mistakes and mentally rebutting them
scripturally can also strengthen your faith.

                                             Askseeknock

                                              Charlie o
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mari_et_pere

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2007, 03:01:43 PM »

Of course, you're both right.  :)

Darren, you ask why she thinks the song service was so amazing. She just kept saying the presence of God was there, that she could feel the Holy Spirit moving.

Charlie, you're right! Hearing the mistakes and mentally rebutting them can strengthen faith! That's an excellent point and it's well taken.  :)

And both of you made excellent points about limiting God. What was I thinking?  :o Who am I to say God's spirit wouldn't be felt somewhere? I'm sure the kids that were singing did mean it, and probably felt honored to take the place of the praise and worship team for a Sunday. Shame on me for judging something that I didn't even witness!  :-[

Thanks for your perspectives. Points very well taken indeed.

Matt
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gmik

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2007, 03:11:29 PM »

I liked those points also.  I know I will have to go back to the building when the twins get "dedicated"-whatever that means.

Matt, you have shown you have much affection for Jennifer.  Go with her, smile, and make nice w/ brother in law.

I used to experience those kinds of worship service, then I didn't and was almost bored.  Did the service change or me??  Me!  Sometimes I felt so in love w/ Jesus and those songs just really touched me.  Probably all in the flesh, tho.  Depending on my mood at the time.

We can't say that Jesus wasn't in the midst of people who honestly love Him.  He answered prayers even when I was in Babylon, and I felt His presence at times (once when I was robbed, and another time after a car accident).

Your wife is walking her walk w/ the Lord just as we all did. When and if he chooses to show her the truth about churchianity it will probably be because you showed her love and support.
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mari_et_pere

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2007, 03:16:25 PM »

Gena, you reminded me of times that I felt His presence even when I was in church. I thought I had grown so much. Now I make the old me look weak and puny, and I still AM weak and puny in respect to what some others are!
I know you guys are right. Thanks for some much needed edification.  :)

Matt
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inezray

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2007, 03:43:45 PM »

I really miss the worship music. I would like to go to church and praise and worship and then go home. I wouldn't do that though. I have alot of worship music on CD's. Some of my favorites are Phil Driscoll "I Exalt Thee" , many of the Integrity music like, Glorify thy Name, Holy Ground, Sing Allehia to the Lord, and many more. Many of them do not speak about doctrine, simply just praise.

Inez

I am not new here but very seldom post. I do read here everyday and have been reading Ray's site since 2002.
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josh

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2007, 03:51:47 PM »

Hey Matt & Gena,

I stopped attending church a year ago this month... at the time it wasn't hard at all to walk away from all of the mess and confusion of what was going on at my home church at the time, but it became difficult over the following six months because the people I loved and cared about wanted me to come to hear them preach or sing, to be there for a special occasion or celebration of some sort.

I attended sporadically from June until around Christmas time... because I didn't want to dissapoint or hurt my loved ones. 

Probably the most difficult situation that has presented itself is that my girlfriend still attends church and in the past asked me often to go with her for special occasions and such.

And for awhile, I did... but at the beginning of this year I realized, that for me, to go back to please someone else was placing their carnal desires above what God has called me to do and that was to come out.

It's been difficult... but overtime my friends, family and even my girlfriend have come to understand that it is something I am not going to budge on. I've had alot of very honest conversations with them and told them very frankly that my decision to not attend church was based on the scriptures and for the sole purpose of pleasing God.

Oddly enough, it use to be really important to them that I go... but now they don't even ask. In a very strange way I believe I have earned their respect.

Sorry for interrupting the conversation, just thought I would add my two cents.

God's Peace.
Josh

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mari_et_pere

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2007, 04:06:38 PM »

Josh, you didn't interupt. You added to it! Sounds like you and me have the same thing going on. I respect you for standing your ground and not budging! Kudos!

And Inez, why not post more? It might sound funny but you get a lot out of joining, and dialoguing back and forth.

Matt

p.s. is "dialoguing" a word?  ;D
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2007, 04:25:53 PM »

Hi Matt,

I am trying to get this figure out in my mind.  I can see no harm in going to church with your wife to support her on a special occasion.  But for me, going would be a rare occasion.
Darren you said,

Quote
As for the song service, only God can read the hearts and intent of those present. If their hearts were genuinely seeking and praising God, then perhaps God used this moment to illustrate the difference between heart felt praise and man spelled doctrine.

The Christian church does not have the Holy Spirit and so is carnal minded, how could their carnal hearts be "genuinely seeking and praising God"  ???

Rom 8:7  "because the carnal mind is enmity against God, for it is not subject to the Law of God, neither indeed can it be."

I do not believe Christ works in the church, and when He gives us His Holy Spirit, we soon want to leave the church, because it is so contrary to God's Spirit.
But that is not saying that they do not feel inspired by the song service.  There is a lot of gifted singers in the world.  But I don't believe those that are carnal minded can praise God.

Mat 15:8  "This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
v. 9  But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

The church is where Satan has his throne, maybe it's not a good idea to hang around there.  This is an excerpt form the Lake of Fire no. 10.

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html -----------------------------------------------------------

THE THRONE OF SATAN THE DEVIL ALSO LOCATED

Now then, as the false apostles, and lying Jews, and synagogue of Satan are all located in the Church, where do you suppose we would find Satan’s throne, and Satan’s dwelling place to be located? Yes, that’s right: In the Church. Here is the Scriptural proof found in the messages to the church at Smyrna and Pergamos:

"Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison…" (Rev. 2:10).

"I know your works and where you dwell, even where [the same place where] Satan’s seat [Greek: throne] is… were Satan [also] dwells" (Rev. 2:13).

Satan cannot imprison members of the Church unless Satan is in the Church. His throne is in the Church. His dwelling place is in the Church.. His synagogue is in the Church.

And think not that Satan merely makes an occasional visit to the Church. No, Satan is permanently in the Church until God removes him. The Greek word from which the translators give us "dwelleth" in the KJV is kataoideo, and it’s meaning is: "To house permanently" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, page 136). Satan not only has his false apostles in the Church, and his congregation of unconverted lying Jews in the Church, and his synagogue in the Church, and his very throne in the Church, but Satan himself dwells permanently in the Church.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2007, 04:28:24 PM »

Hi Inez,

Well thank you for sharing your thoughts with us this time. :)

I agree, the words of a song only convey a message. It is the heart and the soul of a person that determines if they believe or could not care less.

What is often lost is that the truth is still the truth even if told by a known liar. Reverse this, and words of praise are still words of praise, regardless of the motive behind the one who orignally penned them.

Love to you in Christ.
Darren
« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 05:01:34 PM by YellowStone »
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Prosizz

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2007, 04:44:39 PM »

Kat,

When you say
 "I do not believe Christ works in the church, and when He gives us His Holy Spirit, we soon want to leave the church, because it is so contrary to God's Spirit." do you mean the building or the people? It is important to make distinction between a building and a church " congregation of believers". Therefore I am not sure you are right by stating categorically that God Spirit was not there at the time and that Mari-et-pere wife did not experience it.

So I will echo Darren quote: "As for the song service, only God can read the hearts and intent of those present. If their hearts were genuinely seeking and praising God, then perhaps God used this moment to illustrate the difference between heart felt praise and man spelled doctrine". We should avoid limiting God to what he can do or will do at a given point.
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YellowStone

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2007, 04:57:16 PM »

Kat you wrote in response to me:

The Christian church does not have the Holy Spirit and so is carnal minded, how could their carnal hearts be "genuinely seeking and praising God" 

Kat, I am happy to say that you are saddly mistaken. :)  There are many people that I know who diligently seek God but reject almost every word of the church. Why is this? Could it be that they have enough of the Spirit to know that something is not right, but not enough to have the strength to leave. May I ask you, where did your disernment and strength come from. Surely it was by God and not something you just decided upon. Did it happen in an instant or over time? :)

You then wrote:
I do not believe Christ works in the church, and when He gives us His Holy Spirit, we soon want to leave the church, because it is so contrary to God's Spirit. But that is not saying that they do not feel inspired by the song service.  There is a lot of gifted singers in the world.  But I don't believe those that are carnal minded can praise God.

Who said anything about Christ working in the church? Christ works in the hearts of those he calls. :)

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.  

I can honestly say that God was sowing seeds of his Spirit in me for years, I wandered aimlessly from church to church in the hope I could find some semblance of sanity / truth. God took perhaps a very round-about way with me in bring me to the truth. For his Spirit was well intrenched in me years before finding Bible Truths, even while still attending various churches. The hypocrisy, the blantant lies and fanciful beliefs were as clear as a smile on a baby's face. Finally, I just gave up going to church. Maybe God gave me a gentle nudge; I like to think that He waited until I grew so bored and fed up with the untruth, that I walked out myself (under his direction of course) :)

Bottom line Kat, is that when I was singing those songs. I was singing them to the God that I knew was in my heart. Not the God that they spoke of from the pulpit.

I find it kind of apalling to think that you believe that EVERY person that is in the church today has a 100% carnal mind and not a sinlge atom's worth of the Spirit of Truth. God measures his Spirit to whom he chooses in the amount he wants. :)

You then write:
The church is where Satan has his throne, maybe it's not a good idea to hang around there.

I will agree with you that it is not the place that one should habitually frequent, yet what Power has Satan got over God's own?

Rom 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 8:31  What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?

Eph 6:13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14  Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15  And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16  Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

How is it that many whom come from the church and find BT, praise Ray to the highest, if they did not know the truth when they saw it. They knew the truth, that is why they were searching, all by the power and will of our Gracious God. :)

Love to you in the Salvation of our Christ,
Darren

« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 05:44:05 PM by YellowStone »
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rk12201960

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2007, 05:32:55 PM »

My Darren what big teeth you have!!!!!!!!!

Randy
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2007, 05:43:15 PM »

Moderators, If you feel that my post is to harsh, and / or deceitful please delete it :)

Love to you all in Christ
Darren
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mrsnacks

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2007, 05:58:25 PM »

So what about the cults? I have attended services of other religions and the congregation sings songs praising God. How about the Mormons who claim that their church is the true church because they feel God in their bosom.

I have friends in the music industry ( pros ) that attend those big mega churches and get paid for singing and playing. They are not believers yet they get into it.

I will share this with you. Being in the music industry and working in studios- I have had it told me from a major Christian celebrity that the Christian record companies were worse then the secular. And from engineers who worked on Christian records of how un-Christianlike the folk were. It is a business and church has become a business. I think Jesus would have overturned the tables at the temple no matter what song they were singing.

So I have enough on my table. I know I am in process. And so are all those in Christendom. We are all at different point but the good news is God is working in all of us. I am just blessed in coming out of Babylon. And it is by seeing all the craziness and nuttiness around me that was means to an end in God bringing me to search and arrive here at BT.

------------------------------

Yellowstone said :

Bottom line Kat, is that when I was singing those songs. I was singing them to the God that I knew was in my heart. Not the God that they spoke of from the pulpit.
----------------------------------------
mrsnacks response

I believe you. But is it possible that the God they are singing from their hearts is not the God of Scripture ? This is all so subjective it seems.We don't see behind the scenes. A non believer can sing a praise song and look like he / she means it. I sung many songs and had no idea what I was singing. I just mouthed the words. I know many do the same thing.

Most in Christendom are sincere but sincerely wrong. The God they sing about is a God of contradictions. A God that sends unbelievers to hell. A God that is three persons making one God. A God who claims to be the Savior of the world and in reality only saves some.

Remember that there will be many saying Lord, Lord didn't we do this or that in your name. And what was the Lord's response ? Depart from me - I never knew you.
--------------------

Yellowstone says:

There are many people that I know who diligently seek God but reject almost every word of the church.

---------------------
mrsnacks response

I don't think you know or any of us. God sees the heart of man. Man looks on the outside. Only He has access. We see the surface. Church service lasts an hour and a half. You are not with these people the rest of the week. Shakespere said that "God has given us faces and then we wear masks." Much of what goes on in Christendom is mask wearing. I know - I have been there and done that. I see the pretending.I am sure you have. We see the actions. I had 2 assistant pastors in one church that didn't like me at all for my beliefs. It was so obvious. This I knew for a fact. I confronted the head pastor and he covered for them.  But they gave me a Holy Spirit hug and smile on Sundays. And they sang and worshipped God with anger and resentment in their hearts.

God sees the heart.

--------------
Yellowstone says

There are many people that I know who diligently seek God but reject almost every word of the church.
-----------------------------------------
mrsnacks says:

I respectfully disagree. Few are chosen. If this was true I wouldn't have been kicked out of the churches  I attended. Do you think for one minute Ray or anyone of us would be welcomed to preach in the churches today? Nothing has changed. Jesus was crucified 2000 years ago and if He were around today He would be killed by Christendom.


But I do see your point Darren. If God is the one who opens the eyes - I wonder why it took so long for Him to open mine. His ways are strange.

Church today has become a social club. The teens I know attend for the most part go to church for the activities and because of their parents. The rest of the week ask them if they spend time in the Word or in prayer. How can you turn down pizza night or film night. OR even the great pot lucks. The church I attend had banana split day. It was fantastic. And on Sunday mornings - donuts and fresh coffee.
Makes you want to go even if the teachings are wrong.  :-\

« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 06:05:08 PM by mrsnacks »
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2007, 06:00:11 PM »

Hi Prosizz,

The Christian church is the congregation/people.  Does God's Spirit visit where Satan has His throne?  I don't think so.

Hi Darren,

Quote
I find it kind of apalling to think that you believe that EVERY person that is in the church today has a 100% carnal mind and not a sinlge atom's worth of the Spirit of Truth. God measures his Spirit to whom he chooses in the amount he wants.

We do only recieve an ernest of God's Spirit, but we become a new creature and we are no longer of this world.  We do not stay among those that do not believe as we do.  That's why it says, "come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord..."

2Co 6:16  And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
v. 17  Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you
v. 18  and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.

Those called do not have God's Spirit and can not worship in spirit and truth.

Joh 4:22  Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
v. 23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.
v. 24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

These excerpts From Ray paper 'WHERE IS THE CHURCH THAT JESUS BUILT?'  The chosen few are the temple where the Spirit of God dwells, not the Christian churches.

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html --------------------------------------------------------

"A new name written, which no man knows except he that receives it." [That’s CHRIST, Who] "…had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself … and His name is called The Word of God" (Rev. 19:12-13).

That’s CHRIST, Jesus is "The Word of God" (John 1:1). The world often treats God’s saints as if they were heretics. Only those who possess the Name of Jesus Christ truly "know" what the name is and all that it represents. Not all who speak of the Name, have the name "written" within them. Men’s lips are often far far from their heart.

I already covered how that "name" is representative of THE PERSON WHO BEARS IT. To believe in THE NAME of Jesus Christ is to believe ALL THAT JESUS IS! And the reason we have a "new" name is because all whom are "IN Christ" are "NEW creatures [new creations]: old things are passed away; behold, ALL THINGS ARE BECOME NEW" ( II Cor. 5:17). We not only have a new name, but we become and ARE A NEW NAME as well.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Oh that we would have ears to SPIRITUALLY hear:

"Therefore if any man be IN Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (II Cor. 5:17).

This is the new, converted, believer’s life "IN Christ." And when God comes to judge the world, we will have no fear of judgment for we are being judged now "IN Christ." Highlight this verse in your Bibles:

"And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and He that dwells in love dwells IN GOD, and GOD IN HIM. Herein is your love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: BECAUSE [get ready; here it comes…] As He [Jesus Christ] IS [right now, this minute] SO ARE WE in this world" (I John 4:17).

And just how is that?

We just read it—because we live IN CHRIST, and Christ lives IN US!!! Our names are written in "the book of THE LIFE OF THE LAMB" only if WE TOO LIVE "THE life OF the Lamb," IN THE LAMB! "Abide in Me, and I in you" (John 15:4). I pray for God to give you spiritual eyes to see these grand Truths that have been hid from the blinded eyes of the Church today.

A stern warning: How many does Jesus say through His Spirit, will He "…not blot out his name out of the book of life?" Let’s read it:

"Thou has A FEW names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and shall walk with Me in white: for they are worthy" (Rev. 3:4).

Dear readers it is always, just the FEW who will be in Christ in His glory in the first resurrection. All of the rest, ALL of them, will come up in the Second Resurrection, and white throne judgment with its "lake of fire and second death."

I feel it necessary to show you just how sobering our Lord’s statement to the churches really is. Not many escaped the flood that came on the world in Noah’s day because the thoughts of men were only evil continually,

"…while the ark was a preparing, wherein FEW, that is, eight souls were saved…" (I Pet. 3:20).

Are things better now? NO, Paul said things would get worse AND WORSE.

"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and FEW there be that find it" (Matt. 7:14).

"So the last shall be first, and the first last: and many be called, but FEW chosen" (Matt. 20:16).

"For many are called, but FEW are chosen" (Matt. 22:14).
----------------------------------------------------------------------

THE "CALLED" AND THE "NOT CALLED"

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many [some, but not many] wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

But God has chosen the foolish things [many translations do not insert the word "things" in these verses] of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And the base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in His presence" (I Cor. 1:26-29).

So we see that God calls MOSTLY those who are: weak, base, despised, nothings! Are we to believe that God is going to build a SPIRITUAL ARMY of Sons and Daughters by which He will conquer and SAVE THE WORLD?

Hard to believe, isn’t it? I think we can all agree that there is a great deal of work to be done with and to these "nothings of the world" whom God is calling to such a formidable, once-in-an-eternity task!

But of the "many called," we are told, "few are chosen" (Matt. 20:16). Why is that? God has intended it to be such. We are given the parable of the "sower of seed" where much of the seed fell by the side of the tilled soil, and the birds ate it; some had no depth and withered in the sun; still more fell among thorns and were chocked, but some fell upon good soil and produced much fruit. Many seed are sown, but few seed produce good fruit. "Seed" we see everywhere in the Church; "fruit" of God’s spirit is more rare. These few have the added designation of:

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful" (Rev. 17:14).

These are the "very elect" who cannot be deceived any longer by the Great Whore, "Mystery Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots, and the Abominations of the earth."

One more important verse regarding our calling, that I will cite out of the Concordant Literal New Testament because I believe they translate the Greek aorist tense properly, whereas the King James uses the past tense:

"Now we are aware that GOD [it is unfortunate that the King James leaves out "God" even though it is in the manuscripts. Most translations do put "God" in this opening phrase. Things don’t just ‘work’ together without GOD doing the ‘working’] is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are [being] called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls [not ‘called’ as all are NOT YET called, it is the aorist tense] also, and whom He calls, these He justifies, also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:28:30).

Now, pay attention: All which God foreknew, He then designates beforehand (He hand-picks them, if you will). And therefore, since He has already designated them beforehand, when they are born in whatever generation God designates; He then calls them. Now it is true that God calls MANY OTHERS whom He has NOT designated to be "conformed to the image of His Son" AT THE TIME that each generation appears in history.

There are many more "called" in each generation than are actually, "chosen" to be conformed to the image of His Son at that time.

All that are not chosen will be in the second resurrection/white throne judgment/lake of fire. These will go the "broad way into destruction" from which they will await judgment at the great white throne. But, those which God foreknows and designates beforehand, He definitely does call, but these designated ones GO ON to be JUSTIFIED AND GLORIFIED. They are not just the "called," but the "called AND CHOSEN" which will go on to glorification in service with Christ, as the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, in the Kingdom of God, to bring the rest of heaven and earth to SALVATION!

When Jesus says that,

"Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord… Then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity" (Matt. 722-23),

He is not speaking of a minority but a majority. The "many" NEVER means the minority!

We will see it conclusively proved from God’s Word that the majority in the Church today are going the "broad way," and not the "straight and narrow way." And I am not just preaching to the choir when I say that only a "FEW" will be in the first resurrection and rule and reign with Christ, I am speaking to all the church and to myself as well. I know these aren’t the "soft" words that tickle people’s ears, but what I am telling you is a "hard saying" of the Scripture that is absolutely true. Jesus Christ Himself said that "THE MANY" must "DEPART from Me." Jesus doesn’t "know" the many, in a spiritual relationship, because they are too carnal to be spiritual.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat

« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 06:13:54 PM by Kat »
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skydreamers

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2007, 06:21:35 PM »

Oh boy, this is a tough one.  I personally never had much of a struggle coming out of the "church building/system".  My husband and I moved to a new city about 5 years ago and initially when we arrived I sought out a church to attend and found one warm and welcoming enough for us to stay for a couple of years.  We made friends with one couple, the husband being an elder and they were warm and relaxed people.  Other than that we didn't get too personally involved with church members or activities.  My husband only being involved at all because of me.  To be honest, I slowly stopped attending church and at the time didn't really understand why....I thought I was slipping again and just not being a "good Christian".  But I knew somehow I wasn't being fed, and I was spiritually drying up. 

However, I do remember plenty of times listening to the message and feeling like God was speaking directly to me through the pastor because he would hit upon the precise things I was praying and thinking about that week.  I know this has happened to others as well.  These things were usually about daily living type subjects, than about doctrines.  I would come away with a feeling of having been touched by the presence of God.  And other times I would just find myself quietly weeping, not knowing why...thinking I was just being sentimental.  All things of the flesh???  I really have no idea. 

What I understand from Kat's post is that the methods and means by which the religious church system operates is carnal.  People go to church for hundreds of reasons, and MOST of the time those reasons are to fulfill some kind of carnal desire (socialization, answer to prayer, stress relief, enjoyment of praise/worship etc etc etc etc and on and on).  I rarely, if ever, found church to be about digging into the treasure trove of God's word, seeking for deeper knowledge as to how to understand SPIRITUAL matters.  Most sermons point to how to be a good Christian in the "world".  Even our Sabbath school "bible studies" consisted of study material put out by the church and just a constant rehashing of already founded doctrines within the church....there was nothing new.

Looking back at it now it was like being a hamster in a wheel.  You're getting exercise, you're being fed and looked after but you're really not GOING ANYWHERE.  Just stuck in the same old cage.

But I also see Darren's point of view, in that of course God is working on the hearts of those he has chosen while they are yet in a church system.  In fact, I like to think, for me, God has been working on my heart all of my life, before I even ever stepped into the first church building. 

He found his people in a desert land, in a barren place where animals howl. He guarded them, took care of them, and protected them because they were helpless. Like an eagle that stirs up its nest, hovers over its young, spreads its wings to catch them, and carries them on its feathers, so the LORD alone led his people. No foreign god was with him.
Deuteronomy 32:10-12

Satan may dwell in the church system and have his throne there, but that does not mean Jesus is not walking in the "midst" of this system:



http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html

DOES JESUS RESIDE AND DWELL IN THE CHURCH?

Does not Jesus dwell and reside in the Seven Churches of God mentioned in the Book of Revelation? Actually, He does not. Let’s read it:

    "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things says He that holds the seven stars in his right hand, who WALKS in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks" (Rev. 2:1).

Jesus Christ "walks" in the midst of the churches—He does not dwell there; He does not reside there; He does not have His throne there. But someone else does:

    SATAN has his "seat [Greek: ‘throne’]" in the Churches (Rev. 2:13)

    SATAN "dwells" in the Churches (Rev. 2:13).

    SATAN still has his "synagogue" in the Churches (Rev. 2:9 & 3:9).

    SATAN’S "depths" of doctrinal evils are in the Churches (Rev. 2:24).

It is Satan who has his "throne" in the Churches--the Throne of Jesus Christ is in Heaven with His Father (Rev. 3:21), not in the church. He is not enthroned in the Church; He merely "walks" in the Churches.




Perhaps everyone's response here is according to where they are at in their growth.  In this way, there is no right or wrong.  Let's not forget that it is God doing the leading. 

Matt, quite simply, if you go then that's where God wants you to be, if you don't go then that's where God wants you to be.  Trust in the living God who

...is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Jude 1:24-25

Peace and may God be with you,
Diana


   
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mrsnacks

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2007, 06:21:42 PM »

One important point is that God wants us to worship Him in Spirit and truth.
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2007, 06:26:04 PM »

Whoaaa!!  :D

Hey let us find some common ground. Who here will stand up and say. "Gosh darn one second I was in church singing my lungs out, and then, I found myself walking out the door, a new person."

Who amongst us woke up one morning born anew? Who also suddenly realized, that every word that they had heard previously was a LIE? I would be very interested to know how long it took for some of you to come out of the church, once you realized it's teachings just didn't mesh with the spirit within your heart. Yes, the very same spirit that let's you know when the truth is in fact truth.

Is it impossible for God not to be working His Spirit in even a small fraction within the church today. How many here came not from the church. Why did you come? Of course God is in control. Of course everything happens according to his will.

I think many are confusing the establishment of the church, that is Banylon the Great, with the people who have been blinded. Blinded by whom if not their own decietful hearts. By God who blinded their eyes to see and closed their earts to hear.

When it says:

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.  Who are they being called by. Is it not God's own Spirit.

This does not and cannot mean that once called, such become born again of the spirit. They are merely called. There is a definate difference between being called and chosen.

I am NOT disagreeing with any Scripture presented. But I will disagree with the notion that God cannot work his spirit in the hearts of even some (if not all) that attend the church.

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

We all should know that God does what he wants when he wants for reasons unknown to us.

Phl 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.  

If Matt's wife Jennifer, decided for reasons unknown that Matt is a much calmer, profound person than he was before and that his words do make more sense than that of the church; that she joins this forum. How many hear would argue with her if she said: "You know, I have been questioning it for a number of months, but I just didn't have enough to leave, but then this happened....."

Who would say she was mistaken. That the God she was singing to while singing heartfelt, meaningful songs. Wasn't the God that has been molding her to his will in his time.

Who would tell her she was wrong. :)

I am so sorry that a simple point such as this was lost. There is a lesson in this for everyone. :)

Matt, please forgive me for using your wife lovely in my analogy. :)

Praise be to our loving and gracious God.

Darren
« Last Edit: June 18, 2007, 06:33:55 PM by YellowStone »
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