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Author Topic: Worship/song services  (Read 23907 times)

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YellowStone

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2007, 06:31:51 PM »

One important point is that God wants us to worship Him in Spirit and truth.

Given only by him, lest we should ever forget :)

Who knows who God has given a portion of his spirit. Not me.  :)

Love in Christ,

Darren
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LittleBear

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2007, 07:19:29 PM »

I have to say, for myself, that the God I was worshipping and praying to when I was attending church is the same One I worship and pray to now. I just know Him a lot better now.

Ursula
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Kat

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2007, 07:56:32 PM »


I can't keep up with everything that has been said, so I'll answer your last post Ursula.

The church being the synagogue of Satan, then those ministers in it are his ministers.

2Co 11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
v. 14  And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
v. 15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2007, 09:12:00 PM »

It's a carefully choreographed brainwashing.

The big pentecostal organization (cannot remember their name, in Tennessee?) even has a set of instructions on how to start the music with upbeat songs and work down to a slow, emotional end.

You can get the same feelings from a good movie. It's ALL emotional. There is nothing spiritual about it.

This came up several years ago and someone posted the instructions (wish I could fine them).

Dennis
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YellowStone

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2007, 09:28:44 PM »

Dennis,

I had a similar experience with a Baptist church near by. Oh, the people were wonderful to talk to, friendly, nice, etc. They had a beautiful choir and even the sermons were not that radical, for I have seen many that were.

However, when I got a chance to speak to a couple of the head guys one on one. Fruitier and nuttier than a fruitcake. It was a very smoothly orchastrated facade.

In Christ our Saviour,
Darren
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2007, 09:47:10 PM »

Okay, found it: From a long time ago in a far, far away bible-truths forum:




> Hi Dennis,
>
> I just wanted to comment on some emails recent
> with regard to people going to a "feel good" church,
> coming out of the services feeling emotionally good,
> having gotten an "emotional high" from being in a praise
> and worship service.
>
> I have first-hand knowledge of the fact that all
> Assembly of God churches throughout the world are
> in strict adherence to the guidelines set forth by
> the corporate headquarters of Assemblies of God in
> Springfield, Missouri. The corporate headquarters
> for AOG came out in the mid 1980s with the ORDER (or
> COMMAND, if you like) that ALL services will start
> out with a praise and worship service for at least 45
> minutes long, whereby there would be some type of
> organized "praise team" that would lead the
> congregation initially in very upbeat songs to
> attract and get attention of the congregation so as to put
> them immediately on an "emotional high" and then
> progressing into a more seductive mood by the
> "slower" songs which the praise team would sing over and
> over and over to ad nauseum, having the people stand
> for 45 minutes during this praise and worship session.
> After the praise and worship session, the pastor then
> encourages the congregation to dig deep into their
> pockets for the tithe and offering collection.

> And that type of service has now permeated into
> independent Pentecostal churches, Church of God
> churches, into Baptist churches, into some
> Methodist churches, into some Presbyterian churches, into
> Messianic churches, and even into some Catholic
> churches during separate charismatic services that
> are held at times other than their regular mass
> service.

> There has been a tremendous influx of people into
> the pentecostal-related churches over the past 15
> years.

> One AOG church that I know of personally is in
> Port St. Lucie, Florida. Back in 1986, Calvary
> Assembly was meeting in a strip mall with a total
> attendance (on the books) of 50 people, and in 1988, they
> were conducting two morning services and had over 550
> members on the books, and they had instituted the
> "praise and worship" concept and had music that
> sounded no different than if you were in a
> cocktail lounge listening to music.
>
> Presently, today, where I live in several
> pentecostal churches and Church of God during the offeratory,
> the music that is played sounds exactly like being in
> a bar or cocktail lounge. A blind person would not
> be able to tell if they were in a church when
> listening to the music. In fact, they would swear they were
> in a cocktail lounge listening to music. And it's
> because of this "cocktail" like music that many
> people are flocking into the churches to get an
> "emotional high," and not a spiritual high. They claim it's
> a spiritual high, but that is so far from the truth.
>
>
> The Bible is right on point where it says that the
> people's ears will be tickled, because this is
> what the people like to hear. And the clergy of these
> churches tell the people that any church that
> doesn't have this kind of "praise and worship" in their
> services is a DEAD CHURCH and that God is not in
> their presence.
>
> To tell you the truth, Dennis, this whole concept
> of drawing people in to get their emotional high by
> singing the same music repetitively many times to
> the same "cocktail lounge" type arrangements is truly
> pathetic and as Ray pointed out in one of his
> articles, these services are the inhabitation of
> Satan, as these places are called the Synagogue of
> Satan.
>
> Loren



> Hi Loren,
>
> Interesting about AOG and the format they insist
> everyone follow. I never realized it was so wide
> spread. I wouldn't be so against it if the music was
> not used as a tool to collect money and teach false
> doctrines.
>
> I am a close friend of someone very, very prominent
> in the Christian music business. Of course he thinks
> he is doing the Lords work and to some extent I
> guess he is. But the music is pretty much secular
> sounding. I'm not sure he even realizes it but they
> are in the entertainment business. The competition
> among Christian music groups is fierce. I just wish
> they would stop kidding themselves about their
> motives. They all want to be #1.
>
> Were you aware some churches hire
> outside/professional musicians to play in the church
> band? That's how important the music is.
>
> Someone recently asked Ray what the format is at the
> meetings. They asked if there would be music. Ray
> said not this time but maybe later there would be
> hymns.
>
> You cannot blame the sheep. It's the shepherds that
> lead the sheep astray. With all their training you
> would think the ministers would figure it out. But I
> don't think they want to be enlightened. I think
> they like the power they have over people. Just like
> the music competition these ministers are in
> competition with each other to see who can extract
> the most money. They are in some kind of exclusive
> club all trying to outdo each other.
>
> I look at the bible-truths log files everyday.
> Almost everyday someone searches for "tithing
> sermon" or "sermon on tithing" or something like
> that. You know these are ministers looking for
> material on the Internet. So far only two ministers
> (as best we can recall) have emailed Ray and said
> they would stop preaching about tithing. Only two!
[note: in 2004]
>
> I am happy for reasons known only to God that our
> eyes are no longer shut and we are no longer a part
> of that system.
>
> But the day will come when they will all know that
> God has blinded them for a season. They will all
> know the truth. Then we can all raise our hands in
> song without the collection plate being passed.
>
> Dennis


Hi Dennis,

Yes, I am aware of churches hiring outside people in
the entertainment industry to "spice up their
orchestras" to produce musical arrangements that is
similar to what the world produces, because the
churches know that if you have top-notch music talent
with a well-versed orchestra director, that the church
is going to attract a lot more people.

I know of one huge church (AOG) that hired an orchestra director
who expresses no religious faith at all, but is an known
in the entertainment industry as an excellent pianist
and orchestra director, so that he could produce
professionally done arrangements, which gave the
church an edge over the other AOG churches in their
area. The director is on the payroll of the church.

No matter what AOG church it is anywhere in the world,
the order of the service is the same. I have attended
many different AOG churches throughout the country
between 1985 and 2001 (2001 is when I discovered Ray's
bible-truths website), and for the first at least 45
minutes of each service, everyone stood for the praise
and worship session.

At one service, I counted the number of times that one song
was repeated over and over again, and the Praise and
Worship team leader led the congregation in singing
that song 12 times, and that song alone took almost 30 minutes
to sing 12 times, and when we were told we could sit down,
it was 55 minutes after the start of the praise and worship
service. Guess what happened next? The pastor
continued with the theme of the P&W service by tying
that into the receiving of our gifts to the Lord in
the form of tithes and offerings, and then the
offering was taken.

Just about at the end of the
service, a man walked down the aisle and up on the
platform and gave the minister an envelope. The
minister looked in the envelop and read something, and
then he then said, let's sing that song, that we had
already sang 12 times, and we then sang the song
another five times, and after that he told the
congregation that that morning's offering was the
largest offering the church had ever received, and
then said, "What a marvelous God we serve." Of
course, during all this time, an organist was playing
some inviting song which put everyone into a mood of
how wonderful it is to be a sacrificial giver.

It is really amazing what the effect that music can
have on a congregation.

Loren
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mrsnacks

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2007, 12:50:44 AM »

Music does have a great effect over people. God created music. He also created the stars at night. When I look up at night into the sky , the scene causes me to praise God. Is that just emotional and not spiritual ? I think it is both. God gave us feelings and emotions.

The thing is that being a pro musician I can't really say what is moving me if I hear a song. It could be the arrangement or the production. Then again it could be the lyrics or melody. When I hear the tune "Bridge over Troubled Water" I am moved. When I hear Beethoven or Chopin it moves me sometimes to tears. Or it could be a R and B groove that is so infectious that I just got to get up and dance. So my guess is that in church when the music is played over and over and over again -it is the music that is moving people. And not necessarily God directly. He doesn't need to do anything.

Do you remember the Billy Graham crusades where Just As I Am was the song during the altar call. It is a great melody and song. When you hear it it is sort of lik hearing Pomp and Circumstance at a graduation. It makes you teary. It causes you to reflect and look at your life. So in that aspect it is spiritual I think. And it involves the emotions. But just because we all get to dancing in the aisle and hollering at church doesn't mean it is God anointing. It is the music and our response to it. If it was God truly- then a simple reading of His Word should do the trick.
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gmik

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2007, 02:53:50 AM »

There have been great scripture & discussion on this thread.  Very thought provoking.

Nothing new, just my experience, if anyone is left for this thread.

The last church I left was a huge one. Use to be w/ the faith message.  Then went w/ the Harvest group.  Now on its own and "birthing" new churches.  They got a half hour slot on BET.  That didn't last long, as BET didn't keep some contractual promises like time slots, and type of music etc.  The pastor ws shocked at the secular nature of the whole thing.  This pastor has been on 700 Club, TBN, TD Jakes, and preaches in the states and around the world. Now I think that our (my ex) church was pretty secular and he thought they were bad!

My two oldest kids graduated from Lee University in Cleveland TN.  Home of the Church of God (similar to AOG).  Worship & praise is very orchestrated.  They manipulate the music as they "feel the spirit leading"...ie the way the pastor or leader deems it.  In my ex church I could see my pastors hand move up or down telling the worship leader to go louder or softer or stop.

Spirit led services are NOT led by the spirit IMHO.  And that is why we left the Lutheran church, to go to a "spirit filled" one so we could be led by the spirit...duh...

PS....my ex pastor of this mega church just spent 10 days in jail on a DUI.  not his first either!  He says its just wine and the local cops are out to get him bcz he drives a mercedes convertible and is easy to spot..... OOOO  KAAAAA
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Prosizz

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2007, 11:34:29 AM »

Hi Kat,

I am in complete disagreement with you on this one. Do you mean to tell Ursula that she was worshipping Satan when she state that: " have to say, for myself, that the God I was worshipping and praying to when I was attending church is the same One I worship and pray to now. I just know Him a lot better now." and you answer with "The church being the synagogue of Satan, then those ministers in it are his ministers."

Nevertheless, it is still God's will for each and everyone of us to go through our various experiences in the church whether it has led us here or elsewhere for that matter.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 11:37:53 AM by Prosizz »
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ciy

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2007, 11:45:42 AM »

Prosizz

Just a short comment, all the years I was in church I was worshipping a God that was not completely sovereign because I had free will, and I was worshipping a God that was going to burn billions of people in an eternal hell.  It was as Paul says "another Jesus".  I now realize why I had to come out of the whore of Bablyon so as not to suffer from her diseases were the false doctrines that was leading me to worship the wrong Jesus.
CIY
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inezray

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2007, 11:50:53 AM »

Prosizz,

I agree with you. I listen to worship music and praise and worship God through it. It is my gift to him and I feel good and happy when I do it. Let's not get religeous about it and all legalistic. If it is carnal and not annointed as some say so what! I dont get all the fuss. This is our human experience. Life is very hard so let a song in our heart give us some joy.

Just my opinion
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rk12201960

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2007, 12:32:02 PM »

Ok Come out of her is a commandment not a request, you have to learn how to let go!
This is an idol of the heart, its been proven by scripture from God via Ray that the church belongs to satan or are we not reading the same letters?

The sacrifices great and not easy infact its the heardest thing you will ever do to allow God to mold you into what he wants and not what we want do not replace God with an idol of the heart.

The facts are you are here and now you know what God desires and believe me when I say I've lost my life in order to gain Gods direction its a price I';m willing to pay. So many of the ones I love deeply don't even speak to me any longer and man it hurts without a doubt but if that's what God desires then its what I want also.

Learn to let go and trust in God and not the church, its the only way to take up his cross.

May God grant all the courage to press on and the knowledge to do so.

In Gods service by his Grace.
Randy.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 12:41:39 PM by Randy »
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YellowStone

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2007, 12:59:51 PM »

Hi Randy,

Just to add:

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

We must never confuse the building with the doctrine. Satan has indoctrinated the entire church, and God is dragging those He calls out of the darkness of untruth into the light. He is NOT dragging us out of the building pursee.

When we look at it closely, this idea is absurd. Once God has given us his spirit, do you think that by merely stepping into a church building that all of the truth that has been given us will suddenly evaporate.

I am in no way drawn to attend any church; however, I am in no way afraid to do so. The complete armor of God is more than enough dispell Satan and his blind followers. We cannot RETURN to Babylon the great by simply walking through the doors. We can ONLY do this by "partaking" in her sins and grievas acts.

You are right though concerning your words of "letting go." If God is for us, who can be against us. We wil no longer be under the the lure of the yet carnal beast in us.

So in closing, each one is walking their walk with God on God's terms.

With Love in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 01:09:33 PM by YellowStone »
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LittleBear

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2007, 01:06:27 PM »

Dennis,

Thank you for posting that email about the music in the AOG. I didn't realize it was SO contrived. It is really a sad thing. This entire thread has given me much to think about.

Ursula
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rk12201960

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2007, 01:07:55 PM »

Why would you want to? "Do NOT tempt the LORD thy God," for he is a Jealous God."

Randy
« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 01:23:11 PM by Randy »
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Kat

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2007, 01:28:37 PM »

Hi Prosizz,

2Co 11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
v. 14  And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
v. 15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Here are the scripture, how can you say this is not referring to the Christian churches.  I know they and I use to too, say they are worshipping the Lord, and it is Him they love.  But can you really separate the church from the doctrines they embrace.

Mar 7:7  And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

And who was Christ talking to in Matt. 7?

Mat 7:22  On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'  (Maybe you could also say, sing praises to Your name)
v. 23  And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

God being sovereign we are in God's will whether we are in the church or not.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


« Last Edit: June 19, 2007, 01:41:07 PM by Kat »
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YellowStone

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #36 on: June 19, 2007, 01:43:47 PM »

Randy, was this directed to me?

Quote
Why would you want to? "Do NOT tempt the LORD thy God." for he is a Jealous God.

No one said anything about "wanting" or "needing" to, what I said was not being afraid to. :)

Psa 23:4  Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou [art] with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

I will stand by what I said. I have no desire to attend any church, yet I am NOT AFRAID to do so. Surely the church building must be seen for what it is, just another part of the valley of the shadow of death. I will not fear the evil within because the staff of God will comfort me and his sheild will protect me.

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Would I happily let my wife, sister or daughter attend a smoke ridden dark room filled with deviates of all kinds, alone? Heck no, but many happily I let the same walk into a church alone and unprotected. WHY?  ???  

Why if it is the most evil place on Earth?  One last point. When I walk through the doors of the Church, I do NOT leave God on the front doorstep, and neither does He leave me. Neither the church or Satan is any match for God's will. Never was and never will be, and that is a God given Truth. :)

Thanks and love in Christ,

Darren

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YellowStone

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #37 on: June 19, 2007, 01:52:52 PM »

Hi Prosizz,

2Co 11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
v. 14  And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
v. 15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

Here are the scripture, how can you say this is not referring to the Christian churches.  I know they and I use to too, say they are worshipping the Lord, and it is Him they love.  But can you really separate the church from the doctrines they embrace.

Mar 7:7  And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

And who was Christ talking to in Matt. 7?

Mat 7:22  On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'  (Maybe you could also say, sing praises to Your name)
v. 23  And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

God being sovereign we are in God's will whether we are in the church or not.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Kat, I can't help feel that you are denying God from having any power, ability or right to work in the hearts of some within the church. Are you saying that God did not partially open your eys and ears while you were yet in the church? Did you fight God, or did you accept Him for the truth that was given you?

I never "knew" the God of the church, I always thought I was doing something wrong. I could not believe the "truth" they taught, for it misaligned with the the truth/Spirit in my heart. Truly, when I sang those songs, I sang them to the God that had made himself known to me. I simply could not sing to any other. This is no lie.

But you are VERY correct when you said: "God being sovereign we are in God's will whether we are in the church or not."

So let us never restrict God to the level of our understanding. :)

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.  

With Love in the name of our Christ and Saviour,

Darren
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rk12201960

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2007, 01:57:33 PM »

Ok Darren as it is but I also think "how can a man put fire to his bosom and not get burned?

I guess it comes down to whom to do you love more?

as for me I will NOT enter into such a place because its a killing field of Gods truths.

As for fear what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Why should your spouse stop going if you still are?

Randy
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rocky

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2007, 02:01:44 PM »

what amazes me, is that most here would be very cautious in saying they are chosen, the elect.  They are hoping so.  But since only a few are chosen, guess what, most of us are all worshiping satan too, and thinking we arent' because we don't believe in free will, or because we dont' believe in hell.  

Whatever happened to believing in the resurrection?  There are many individuals in the church who put there faith in the resurrected Christ.  

Antichrist's are those who deny Jesus come in the flesh.  If he didn't come in the flesh, then he never rose again.  

Where is the line?  where is the line?


time for me to take a long break from here.  



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