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Worship/song services

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Dennis Vogel:
Okay, found it: From a long time ago in a far, far away bible-truths forum:




> Hi Dennis,
>
> I just wanted to comment on some emails recent
> with regard to people going to a "feel good" church,
> coming out of the services feeling emotionally good,
> having gotten an "emotional high" from being in a praise
> and worship service.
>
> I have first-hand knowledge of the fact that all
> Assembly of God churches throughout the world are
> in strict adherence to the guidelines set forth by
> the corporate headquarters of Assemblies of God in
> Springfield, Missouri. The corporate headquarters
> for AOG came out in the mid 1980s with the ORDER (or
> COMMAND, if you like) that ALL services will start
> out with a praise and worship service for at least 45
> minutes long, whereby there would be some type of
> organized "praise team" that would lead the
> congregation initially in very upbeat songs to
> attract and get attention of the congregation so as to put
> them immediately on an "emotional high" and then
> progressing into a more seductive mood by the
> "slower" songs which the praise team would sing over and
> over and over to ad nauseum, having the people stand
> for 45 minutes during this praise and worship session.
> After the praise and worship session, the pastor then
> encourages the congregation to dig deep into their
> pockets for the tithe and offering collection.

> And that type of service has now permeated into
> independent Pentecostal churches, Church of God
> churches, into Baptist churches, into some
> Methodist churches, into some Presbyterian churches, into
> Messianic churches, and even into some Catholic
> churches during separate charismatic services that
> are held at times other than their regular mass
> service.

> There has been a tremendous influx of people into
> the pentecostal-related churches over the past 15
> years.

> One AOG church that I know of personally is in
> Port St. Lucie, Florida. Back in 1986, Calvary
> Assembly was meeting in a strip mall with a total
> attendance (on the books) of 50 people, and in 1988, they
> were conducting two morning services and had over 550
> members on the books, and they had instituted the
> "praise and worship" concept and had music that
> sounded no different than if you were in a
> cocktail lounge listening to music.
>
> Presently, today, where I live in several
> pentecostal churches and Church of God during the offeratory,
> the music that is played sounds exactly like being in
> a bar or cocktail lounge. A blind person would not
> be able to tell if they were in a church when
> listening to the music. In fact, they would swear they were
> in a cocktail lounge listening to music. And it's
> because of this "cocktail" like music that many
> people are flocking into the churches to get an
> "emotional high," and not a spiritual high. They claim it's
> a spiritual high, but that is so far from the truth.
>
>
> The Bible is right on point where it says that the
> people's ears will be tickled, because this is
> what the people like to hear. And the clergy of these
> churches tell the people that any church that
> doesn't have this kind of "praise and worship" in their
> services is a DEAD CHURCH and that God is not in
> their presence.
>
> To tell you the truth, Dennis, this whole concept
> of drawing people in to get their emotional high by
> singing the same music repetitively many times to
> the same "cocktail lounge" type arrangements is truly
> pathetic and as Ray pointed out in one of his
> articles, these services are the inhabitation of
> Satan, as these places are called the Synagogue of
> Satan.
>
> Loren



> Hi Loren,
>
> Interesting about AOG and the format they insist
> everyone follow. I never realized it was so wide
> spread. I wouldn't be so against it if the music was
> not used as a tool to collect money and teach false
> doctrines.
>
> I am a close friend of someone very, very prominent
> in the Christian music business. Of course he thinks
> he is doing the Lords work and to some extent I
> guess he is. But the music is pretty much secular
> sounding. I'm not sure he even realizes it but they
> are in the entertainment business. The competition
> among Christian music groups is fierce. I just wish
> they would stop kidding themselves about their
> motives. They all want to be #1.
>
> Were you aware some churches hire
> outside/professional musicians to play in the church
> band? That's how important the music is.
>
> Someone recently asked Ray what the format is at the
> meetings. They asked if there would be music. Ray
> said not this time but maybe later there would be
> hymns.
>
> You cannot blame the sheep. It's the shepherds that
> lead the sheep astray. With all their training you
> would think the ministers would figure it out. But I
> don't think they want to be enlightened. I think
> they like the power they have over people. Just like
> the music competition these ministers are in
> competition with each other to see who can extract
> the most money. They are in some kind of exclusive
> club all trying to outdo each other.
>
> I look at the bible-truths log files everyday.
> Almost everyday someone searches for "tithing
> sermon" or "sermon on tithing" or something like
> that. You know these are ministers looking for
> material on the Internet. So far only two ministers
> (as best we can recall) have emailed Ray and said
> they would stop preaching about tithing. Only two!
[note: in 2004]
>
> I am happy for reasons known only to God that our
> eyes are no longer shut and we are no longer a part
> of that system.
>
> But the day will come when they will all know that
> God has blinded them for a season. They will all
> know the truth. Then we can all raise our hands in
> song without the collection plate being passed.
>
> Dennis


Hi Dennis,

Yes, I am aware of churches hiring outside people in
the entertainment industry to "spice up their
orchestras" to produce musical arrangements that is
similar to what the world produces, because the
churches know that if you have top-notch music talent
with a well-versed orchestra director, that the church
is going to attract a lot more people.

I know of one huge church (AOG) that hired an orchestra director
who expresses no religious faith at all, but is an known
in the entertainment industry as an excellent pianist
and orchestra director, so that he could produce
professionally done arrangements, which gave the
church an edge over the other AOG churches in their
area. The director is on the payroll of the church.

No matter what AOG church it is anywhere in the world,
the order of the service is the same. I have attended
many different AOG churches throughout the country
between 1985 and 2001 (2001 is when I discovered Ray's
bible-truths website), and for the first at least 45
minutes of each service, everyone stood for the praise
and worship session.

At one service, I counted the number of times that one song
was repeated over and over again, and the Praise and
Worship team leader led the congregation in singing
that song 12 times, and that song alone took almost 30 minutes
to sing 12 times, and when we were told we could sit down,
it was 55 minutes after the start of the praise and worship
service. Guess what happened next? The pastor
continued with the theme of the P&W service by tying
that into the receiving of our gifts to the Lord in
the form of tithes and offerings, and then the
offering was taken.

Just about at the end of the
service, a man walked down the aisle and up on the
platform and gave the minister an envelope. The
minister looked in the envelop and read something, and
then he then said, let's sing that song, that we had
already sang 12 times, and we then sang the song
another five times, and after that he told the
congregation that that morning's offering was the
largest offering the church had ever received, and
then said, "What a marvelous God we serve." Of
course, during all this time, an organist was playing
some inviting song which put everyone into a mood of
how wonderful it is to be a sacrificial giver.

It is really amazing what the effect that music can
have on a congregation.

Loren

mrsnacks:
Music does have a great effect over people. God created music. He also created the stars at night. When I look up at night into the sky , the scene causes me to praise God. Is that just emotional and not spiritual ? I think it is both. God gave us feelings and emotions.

The thing is that being a pro musician I can't really say what is moving me if I hear a song. It could be the arrangement or the production. Then again it could be the lyrics or melody. When I hear the tune "Bridge over Troubled Water" I am moved. When I hear Beethoven or Chopin it moves me sometimes to tears. Or it could be a R and B groove that is so infectious that I just got to get up and dance. So my guess is that in church when the music is played over and over and over again -it is the music that is moving people. And not necessarily God directly. He doesn't need to do anything.

Do you remember the Billy Graham crusades where Just As I Am was the song during the altar call. It is a great melody and song. When you hear it it is sort of lik hearing Pomp and Circumstance at a graduation. It makes you teary. It causes you to reflect and look at your life. So in that aspect it is spiritual I think. And it involves the emotions. But just because we all get to dancing in the aisle and hollering at church doesn't mean it is God anointing. It is the music and our response to it. If it was God truly- then a simple reading of His Word should do the trick.

gmik:
There have been great scripture & discussion on this thread.  Very thought provoking.

Nothing new, just my experience, if anyone is left for this thread.

The last church I left was a huge one. Use to be w/ the faith message.  Then went w/ the Harvest group.  Now on its own and "birthing" new churches.  They got a half hour slot on BET.  That didn't last long, as BET didn't keep some contractual promises like time slots, and type of music etc.  The pastor ws shocked at the secular nature of the whole thing.  This pastor has been on 700 Club, TBN, TD Jakes, and preaches in the states and around the world. Now I think that our (my ex) church was pretty secular and he thought they were bad!

My two oldest kids graduated from Lee University in Cleveland TN.  Home of the Church of God (similar to AOG).  Worship & praise is very orchestrated.  They manipulate the music as they "feel the spirit leading"...ie the way the pastor or leader deems it.  In my ex church I could see my pastors hand move up or down telling the worship leader to go louder or softer or stop.

Spirit led services are NOT led by the spirit IMHO.  And that is why we left the Lutheran church, to go to a "spirit filled" one so we could be led by the spirit...duh...

PS....my ex pastor of this mega church just spent 10 days in jail on a DUI.  not his first either!  He says its just wine and the local cops are out to get him bcz he drives a mercedes convertible and is easy to spot..... OOOO  KAAAAA

Prosizz:
Hi Kat,

I am in complete disagreement with you on this one. Do you mean to tell Ursula that she was worshipping Satan when she state that: " have to say, for myself, that the God I was worshipping and praying to when I was attending church is the same One I worship and pray to now. I just know Him a lot better now." and you answer with "The church being the synagogue of Satan, then those ministers in it are his ministers."

Nevertheless, it is still God's will for each and everyone of us to go through our various experiences in the church whether it has led us here or elsewhere for that matter.

ciy:
Prosizz

Just a short comment, all the years I was in church I was worshipping a God that was not completely sovereign because I had free will, and I was worshipping a God that was going to burn billions of people in an eternal hell.  It was as Paul says "another Jesus".  I now realize why I had to come out of the whore of Bablyon so as not to suffer from her diseases were the false doctrines that was leading me to worship the wrong Jesus.
CIY

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