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Author Topic: Worship/song services  (Read 23614 times)

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #60 on: June 21, 2007, 06:10:33 PM »

There are degrees surely of "association".

Some of our associations, as I understand you to mean Dennis, are "outside" as you say : not (yet) brothers.....some others are nearer....and perhaps not so many others may be closer and then some of the few are intimate.

Just like the OT Temple. We are the NT Temple of God so is it not appropriate therefore that the same should apply? I think it is!

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2007, 06:13:19 PM by Arcturus »
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YellowStone

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2007, 07:18:09 PM »

Hi Susan,

I can't help be reminded of the story of the Good Samaritan. :)

Luk 10:30  And Jesus answering said, A certain [man] went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded [him], and departed, leaving [him] half dead.

Luk 10:31  And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

Luk 10:32  And likewise a Levitt, when he was at the place, came and looked [on him], and passed by on the other side.

Luk 10:33  But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion [on him],

Luk 10:34  And went to [him], and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

Luk 10:35  And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave [them] to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.

Luk 10:36  Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?

Luk 10:37  And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

How can we shut the world out and not be the same as the priest or the Levitt in Christs parable. Were not these two pious men walking higher and considered themselves better than the "fool" hurt on the side of the road.

As Dennis said so well, how can the light of God shine under a basket?

I want to say something to you Susan, but please understand that I am not directing what I am saying to you.

Many people make a very big deal out of not eating certain foods or drinking wine, etc; while others refuse to celebrate any religious holiday, yet the same have no qualms about taking off during a secular holiday. Why is this? Are they not both pagan?????

They miss what is the important part and that is while the board up and shut up certain things so as to isolate themselves from them, they have in effect made themselves slaves unto them. These words may sound harsh, but while ever one is willing to endure hardship and hurt, even unto their children it is my belief that they are making the event something it is not. Participating in the day is much different than participating in the belief. Any pagan belief that was once tied to Christmas has long since been forgotten.

You ask where is the line drawn, and the answer is very simple. Seek not your understanding, but ask God for guidance to show you the futility of taking His word into our own hands. I believe you have done this, and there have been many fine responses.

I truly hope that you find the answers to your questions Susan.

Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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hebrewroots98

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2007, 07:39:13 PM »

Darren, Matt, and Dennis,

I am sorry if i didn't ask the correct question or say the right thing to get my point across.  (I am very emotional and I thin k that this is clouding my thoughts right now...sorry!)  Please do not think that I think that we can ever separate ourselves from the 99.9 % of the world who do not think and believe these spiritual truths that we believe and have been given (PRAISE GOD.)  I know that we cannot and should not expect to single ourselves out like a hermit; that would contradict our purpose for being called out and for trying to let Christ shine through us/His temple.  (I too try daily to talk about the truth and share it with those who God puts into my path...I try and let my light shine and could never imagine myself 'hiding it/Christ/truth under a basket'.    That would defeat our purpose for living!  Thus, I do not try to avoid 'life'.  (Example: today I was listening to the radio (to win monster truck tix) and heard a joke and comment made by the DJ about being afraid of going to hell , so I called and spoke the truth about hell to him and he wants to talk further. )  Plus, I would be truly sad if i could not try and help others to see the truth.

The problem that I am unsure about how to discern is  that WE (my family) have been rejected, mistreated, and lied about by just about all of the christian homeschool community that I am a member of; they have purposely excluded us from co-ops, playtimes, classes, and outings...It doesn't bother me for myself, since I can take care of myself, however, they have rejected and all of the above ti my 8 y.o. son!  They want nothing to do  with us, and yet, I depend on their support to assist in the education of my son...it was a shared opportunity that we parents could teach all of the kids; now we are ignored and treated as outsiders.  They have membership rules that state that one must be a believer in Christ ...but, i just feel that i cannot support their idea of what a believer is; and they think that I am misled and ignorant as to 'the real plan of salvation', so now there is no more unity in our teachings together as all of us once shared!  These  christians are the ones persecuting us!  They are the ones that are so comfortable in propagating their false doctrines, that I wasn't sure if I am supposed to separate myself from  these particular people?  If not, then who is 2Tim.3:6-9 referring to staying away from?  (They do not like us and have separated themselves from me and mine.)

  

I'm sorry for this being so long. :-X
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hebrewroots98

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2007, 09:17:50 PM »













 :( also sorry for letting my emotions get in the way of wording that first email you guys!
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hebrewroots98

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #64 on: June 21, 2007, 09:34:24 PM »

Darren,
I do not need to be rebuked for 'taking HIS Words into my own hands"...as I had stated, I did not word my email they way that i wanted it to portray what I was thinking and feeling; thus, I agree whole heartedly with you all and your advice.  I never had a problem with that.  Infact, if i would have chosen my words more carefully, then I would not have said "where do you draw the line"...I was actually in reference to how do i use the 2 Tim 3:6 scripture?  Do I use it on the homeschoolers or not?  (  I have loved them (my enemies), I have blessed them, but I just wasn't sure how to discern where the line was in relating to these people. 

Arcturus, you understood where I was coming from and what I was trying to say...thank you!  To what extent do I get close to these people is all I was trying to say.

Darren, as far as the treating one day diff than another; I understand where you are coming from, but, I must obey God when HE says to 'do not do the way of the heathen..." b/c it is an abomination to Him...(Duet 12 and Jer 10.)And I do differ here with you...you said that there is no paganism in todays' xmas celebrations...I have a step daughter as well as others whom I am aware of who openly celebrate xmas in the pagan way today, in 2007; (with them knowing full well that it was the Pagans from which this holiday originated from in the first place.)  Therefore, I personally cannot celebrate this day in good conscience; but, if your conscience allows you to then that is between you and God.

I hope that cleared up what was a poor attempt in the earlier email  to convey. :)
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skydreamers

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #65 on: June 22, 2007, 03:00:14 AM »

Hi Susan,

My prayers are with you in this time of struggle.  I can totally see what a dilemma you are in.  You want to do the very best for your child.  I will pray that God will reveal to you His will in the matter.

Having said that, I can only give you my opinion as I see it, but certainly I can't say if it is right or wrong.

I do think the scripture you are referring to is to be taken predominantly in a spiritual sense, for those of us who are being lead to see deeper truths...

For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.
2 Timothy 3:6-7

Susan, I think this is referring to not letting the lies and deception that are being taught and supported by many Christians into your "spiritual house".  Among them, there is opportunity for the light of Jesus to shine through you onto them, Lord willing.  But in keeping with what this thread is about, whether in the world, or in the church system, we will always come up against Babylonian confusion, and we are not to spiritually partake of her plagues.  You have been given a measure of sight, to discern that some of these blind people will "never be able to arrive at a knowledge of truth" (in this age).  Hold fast to what you know, and live in the truth you have, standing your ground. 

And if the house (their spiritual house) is worthy, let your peace come upon it, but if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town.
Matthew 10:13-14

You do not, as I see it, have to physically remove yourself from their presence, but this does seem to be a warning not to "cast your pearls before pigs", who have not yet been chosen by God to see.  You can no longer spiritually fellowship with them.

Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.
Matthew 7:6

   

To refer back to a wonderfully stated post by Josh:

Quote
When one reads or speaks of "coming out" of the church... is one to take this literally, as to no longer set foot in a physical building? or associate with a particular physical group of people?

Or is this a spiritual command? To spiritually become detached from the carnal/fleshly doctrines associate with Babylon? Is this simply a state of spiritual maturity, a progression beyond settling for the milk and moving on to the true meat of the Word?

Is it a one time occurrence? or is it part of dying daily.... does it have an is, was and will be application?

Can one ever totally "come out" of Babylon while we are still in the flesh?

Or perhaps we are again facing another "parable"?

The truth of the matter is... it won't matter how long this thread becomes or how many people get involved or how many scriptures are quoted or how many quotes one may give from Ray's various articles, emails and letters... God has us all at different places, all looking at the same thing from different angles and through different lenses.

Perhaps we can all rest assured that God has us all exactly where He desires us to be at this very moment.

May God give you wisdom
Peace and luv to ya,
Diana

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hebrewroots98

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #66 on: June 22, 2007, 03:32:21 PM »

Diana, God bless you  and thank you all for the prayers and taking the time and conern to assist me with these issues!  I know this may seem simple to some of you to deal with , but, I get stuck sometimes and have to take some quiet time and reflect on the big picture and get reoriented to the truth of the matter; which is what  I am doing now.

You are so right Diana, I have been looking at the physical instead of the spiritual aspect of that scripture!  I have ben thinking that I would have to physically leave the HS group and put my child's opportunities for education at risk.  I just cannot fellship spiritually with them as you said.  Not that we have ever gotten very deep in spiritual fellowship in the past, but, I will have to bow out when and if the opportunties arise for discussing spiritual issues with them.  (IT IS SOOOO HARD FOR ME TO KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT ALOT OF TIMES THOUGH!)  I just cannot throw Gods' precious truths before them anymore for them to disrespect, so I will not even bring up the issues unless I see that the peson is seriously wanting to learn the truth.  I will just stivk to the educational element of my relationship with them as well as endure the ostricising that we receive from them and just consider that they are blinded.  It does hurt to be treated this way, but, I'll just have to ignore the hypocritical treatment.   

I appreciate each and everyone on you here!  I guess i will just stay with this group and will not send Daniel to a public Charter school.  I will just not trust them as I once did.  This is a big load off of my shoulders fianlly.  THANK YOU ALL AGAIN.
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Beloved

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2007, 01:57:31 PM »

God sent His "Apostles " out into the world (that world includes Baylon). I really think that is where He wants us to be. We just do not let them into our own spiritual house just yet.

Yesterday I had a guy (very religious type) helping me move some things.  Everytime He said something I would quote him a scripture or two ask him what Jesus meant by that.  A few times he said where does it say that in the Bible and I would pull out my Palm Treos and show him.  I think God used me to prick his gourd ...so to speak.

I do not try to debate or get into lengthy discussion with anyone I only ask  questions or sometimes I actively refute what (when they distort the truth in scriptures) someone has said by saying "it is written" and then giving them the contra scripture. I smile big and show empathy but I just let the Word stand. 

Since I am ....free in Christ...I never worry about their rejections... if I speak to people in a bible study in a church and I am asked to leave ...so what ....I expect that now... I am usually amazed sometimes how long I can make my points before this happens. Now that I moved I will have a whole crop of new churches that I can to go to on Wednesdays.   

If anyone acts interested or is curious then I answer whatever I can. This is whn my ego gets nervous I am usually praying that God help will me because I am the worse chapter and verse quoter and I usually fracture the Scriptures like Bullwinkle's fractured fairy tales (for those who remember these).

I would not agonize over worhing with the Home School People just see them as God's little flock of lost sheep.

beloved
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gmik

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2007, 02:21:48 PM »

Good thoughts Beloved!

Gods little lost flock of sheep.  I like that.
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hebrewroots98

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2007, 03:23:14 PM »

You are right Beloved, as I have always known that HE DOES want us to be in the world and just not of the world; sometimes I just forgot to use the spiritual application/discernment.  I agree and have always had a heart for the lost sheep of the world (including the HS group), b/c i remember what it felt like to be a lost sheep...it was very scary!  Ever since the  first time that I ever read and heard  Matt 28  about going out into all the world and preaching the gospel,  I have always wanted to help others to see Gods truths.

As far as the HS group, well, DH and I finally decided to stay away from them for this next year and to just HS without them (but with other HSers) since it would not be a good learning environment any longer for our son to be around.  Thank you Lord, the problem is solved!  We will see these people occasionally,  and we will be nice, but, we no longer can trust them to have the best interest in mind for assisting and sharing in our child's education.  (Especially after a couple had told their 2 kids to hit my child as hard as they could if they didn't want my child to mess (play) with them...and one of them did do just that to Daniel last year when Daniel was just being a typical boy and was not being hateful to them; whereas my child could have retaliated and used his Karate' on the kid who hurt him, but he loved his enemy and forgave.  We don't need to be around  adults who are  teaching their kids to be violent instead of using their words to communicate and who teach their kids to hate their enemies.)  At least God has answered our prayers and we are still resolved to HS Daniel, just not anymore with this clique of hs families who don't care for us, but pretend that they do when we are around them.

I was not worried about the rejection from the Hsers, but I was wrong to worry about Daniel not having their HS support in a HS environment any longer...(Lord forgive me for not trusting in your providence more in this area.)

I can relate Beloved...I try to not debate or argue the scriptures with anyone.  If they are erring when speaking of scriptures, I will correct them; if they ask a question and I think they are sincerely wanting to know the truth then I will tell them; if they aren't really wanting to know the truth and they just do want to hear, then I will not give them them any precious truths.  I am not saying that I don't get hornswaggled into speaking truths sometimes by people who just want the head knowledge or to test me in what I know, b/c I do get snookered at times by them.   And when I am rejected, I think about how the Lord has not opened their ears and how God will credit me for being persecuted and how He will hold them accountable at the White Throne Judgement: that is all that I can do.  But, you have a great attitude for not taking it personally Beloved when the churches kick you out!  I do not go to a church anymore...but, if He ever leads me back to one and they kick me out, well, then I will just rejoice, knowing that I did the right thing by standing up for the truth.  (DH did this in our last congregation and all of the men still hate him for telling the truth, even though theyknow that he is right.

....thank you all for your prayers to help me to get discernment...it worked ;) 
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GODSown1

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2007, 09:30:12 PM »

GODBLESS! U Susan,
                          Jus keep strong in ur Faith az it is in my way of seeing fingZ, d@ it is Soully between U & GOD!, & nt in wot da nxt person is sayn or doin, dey r wher GOD wants dem @ His point & Time. My Prayers b wit U Susan (its alL GOOD 2 b emotional ) lol!, thru my xspiernce of lettn out emotin I felt Closer! 2 GOD, Peace 2 U.
                          much muchLOVE!! Pera
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hebrewroots98

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #71 on: June 25, 2007, 01:57:02 AM »

Thank you Pera. :)
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GODSown1

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #72 on: June 25, 2007, 02:00:25 AM »

 ;) :D most welcum!  :),
                               muchLOVE!! Pera
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seminole

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #73 on: June 25, 2007, 05:00:05 PM »

We all got to live in society unless we hide away somewhere. I don't see much difference in thinking you are right about everything so you don't associate within society than a lot of religious people I have known. Like, I had this Auntie who didn't believe girls should wear pants. My sis did so my Auntie's kids were not allowed to be around us. She said the Bible said it was a sin. People have hang-ups about buying food in a store that sells beer. You don't like beer, you don't have to buy it. It is segregating yourself from the world. I am not saying you have to be buds with people you just got to get along with all kinds of different people. I have a problem with 99% of the people not having the truth and 1 % having it! What does that say? 1 % is in a little club that has the answers? You got to raise your kids the way you see fit but eventually the time comes when they got to go out into the world.
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hebrewroots98

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Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #74 on: June 25, 2007, 05:49:18 PM »

I agree wholeheartely Seminole!  We would be no better than they if we did the same segregating as they do.  Getting along with everyone regardless of our differences is what life is all about, not that we have to agree with them, just treat everyone as an equal  and we can still have out preferences as to how close we allow ourselves to become to certain people. :) 
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #75 on: June 25, 2007, 07:09:07 PM »

Hi Susan,

You wrote: "we can still have out preferences as to how close we allow ourselves to become to certain people. "

Yes we do, we have "our" preferences, but do we really? Do we really have the power to choose of whom we associate or not? Is this saying that one can do something on ones own, by their understanding?

This is REALLY difficicult, because if by the grace of God, we can do nothing outside of His plan then surely neither can any other. God is the Master potter and we are the work of his hands; to say that one pot is better, prettier, more useful than another is the first mistake we can make, for are we not then saying: "Boy, God you really messed up on that one!"

God cannot create anything imperfectly, we cannot see through his eyes, but by his grace, we can feel his spirit and we will never help the Samaritan, betean and left for dead on the side of the road, by distancing our selves from him, rather we must walk through the same valley of the shadow of death as he. What better and needful place could there possibly be to bare the fruits of the spirit?

Gal 5:22, 23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

This is how I see it Susan; you are a good friend and a valued sister :)

Love in Christ,
Darren
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hebrewroots98

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #76 on: June 26, 2007, 01:05:04 AM »

Hi Darren,
In response to your response to my statement about us having preferences,  No, of course this is not to say that we/ I can do something on my/one's own without God, by my understanding is that I am simply choosing between  the choices that have been given to me by HIM, thus I call it my preference  Thus, my prefernce is really what God would have me to choose; it is the only choice ultimately.    I did not want to give the impression that I thought that God can be imperfect when I spoke of using my preferences. 

The homeschoolers who have created a clique within our already exclusive hs group does not want US to be around them or in their teaching co-op/sharing clique and playtimes and even with personal get togethers. even though there are to not be support groups within our group so; we will just give them what they want; we will just not participate in their homeschool clique that they do not want us to be a part of, so we will leave them alone so that they can have their own co-op.  It would do us no good to try to invade their clique wiyhin our group.  They have seen my fruits for going on three yrs so far, I  and I see it as though I fight not against flesh and blood humans, rather their the spirits within
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hebrewroots98

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #77 on: June 26, 2007, 11:42:14 AM »

Hmmm, I must have been too tired last night and hit the send button before I had finished (sorry.) ???

Darren, I hope that you are not saying that I am saying that I think that I (a pot) am a better than these homeschoolers (pots), b/c I do not think that; we are all  have equal opportuntiy in the end and we are all where God has put us, (diff callings) all are called and few others are chosen if they finish the race...He made us all equal but different in this life; that does not equal 'better than thou'; just being where God put us (vessles of honor and vessles of dishonor), we all are exactly where we are supposed to be in Him, so no use to think that we are better just b/c we have been given more truths than the 'called' have been given.  True Darren, those whom God made are by no means IMPERFECT just b/c they haven't had the truth revealed to them uet.

What I was going to say is that I think that we have perservered through much cruelty by them by having spent 3 long yrs and much love, kindness, pateience, time, labor,money and service in order to assist in the co-ops along with the other mothers to no avail in the ling run; we loved them and forgave them and loved our enemies...even though we have been persecuted, unloved, used, ignored, despised, gossipped about, lied on, made to feel guilty if I didn't do what they thought I should at the time that they thought I should do it, etc...so in submitting to my dh, my spiritual covering, he says to leave them alone, so that is also why we are pulling out.

darren, I too appreciate yu as a friend and a brother in Christ.  I can always count on you to sharpen my sword with yours!  Thank you for caring.  Have a blessed day and much love to you!!! :D
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YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #78 on: June 26, 2007, 11:52:03 AM »

Hi Susan :)

I think this is really where the rubber meets the road. I am sorry for putting you on the spot, but I think you responded perfectly.

It can be very difficult deciding what to do, I mean we can ask ourselves: "What does God want me to do?" and rack our brains trying to seminate an answer. Likewise, we can ask God himself: "God, what do you want me to do?" Sounds reasonable but the trick is hearing the answer. I know I used to ask God lot's of things, and then I would see many answers, often conflicting ones, because I was using my own understanding to try to fathom what God was "trying" to tell me.

Hang on a minute, God doesn't try anything. He simply does! That realization was massive and put me in my place, for God's answers were not something I had to work out, they were what I had to learn to hear (feel) For His Spirit communicates to the spirit in me, seperate from any human thought process. And I think this is where you are now Susan.  :)

We do not have to beat ourselves up for failing to make people understand, neither do we have to think that God does not want us to associate with the likes of those you mention. Rather, all we need is complete trust in him and and the knowledge that He will lead us where he wants us to go. He is leading you in the direction you need to go. :)

Thanks Susan,

Love in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: June 26, 2007, 11:56:02 AM by YellowStone »
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hebrewroots98

  • Guest
Re: Worship/song services
« Reply #79 on: June 26, 2007, 12:16:01 PM »

ALAS...TRUE DISCERNMENT HAS BEEN REVEALED TO ME...(THANK YOU LORD), (AND I THANK THOSE OF YOU WHOM CARED ENOUGH TO PROVOKE MY THINKING HERE.) :D  ALL IS WELL WITH MY SOUL NOW. :D
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