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[lilitalienboi16]

Okay i had a certain person ask me about deut and other passages of the old testement in which God ordered the killing and murder of certain people, children, women etc..

Does anyone have any imput on all this, anything that makes sence? Why did God command this?

He gave me the following versus that made me think. I gave him the best reply the Lord will allow with my little mind and knowledge, but for some reason, i want there to be more, or i feel there is more. Not sure what it is but your imput into all this would greatly help me.

Deuteronomy 13:6-10

6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

This one is good to, it's about murdering kids and keeping young virgins alive for "something?"
Numbers: 31:17-18

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Deuteronomy 13: 12-16 immediately following the other one. In this exciting chapter, your loving god orders the destruction and death of entire towns of people who worship other gods. Man, his love knows no bounds. It's no wonder you want to be part of his little club.


12If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,

13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

14Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

I UNDERSTAND NOW. When your loving god told the JEWS to kill people of other religions, senseless murder and genocide was OK back then. I get it now. Thanks for all that wisdom. I guess there is a time and a place for killing children.

He ultimately told me this;

You haven't answered the question, Alex........God ordering the JEWS to kill entire towns of people, men, women, and children......was OK?

So what would Christ say to all this? Does anyone with the mind of Christ have an answer? I certainly don't think mine was 'spiritual' or from Christ, because i never was the one who liked to argue 'context context context,' or that it was the history and times and thats why God allowed it, because i certainly don't think man changes, and the times shouldn't make it okay to do these sorts of things.

So any imput guys? I'm sure this has been discussed and i apoligize if it has, perhaps a link to a prior thread would help alot.

Thanks a bunch everyone.

Love in Christ,

Alex

[Robin]

Here is a link.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2965.0.html

[Chris R]

Dear lilitalienboi16

Gods ways are not our ways, these mysteries will be revealed in time, We must never feel that this is the only life we have to live [1Cor 15:19]. This life is just the beginning of much greater things.

It is hard for the human mind not to feel appalled at such destruction, but however you wish to explain it, We are Gods creation, And He chooses the method in which we are ultimately turned into Sons. [Rom 9:21]
Who are we to question God? [Rom 9:20]

Gods total plan and purpose is beyond mans comprehension [Rom 11:33] All things will work together, But even then, every man in his own order [1Cor 15:23]

Some of these questions will not be answered in this life time, but make no mistake about it, they will be answered.

Peace

Chris R.

[lilitalienboi16]

Ok thank you, the both of you for your answers, i'm reading through the other thread to see what the Lord allows me to pick up.

Love,

Alex

[gmik]

Thank you for that link MG.  How quickly I can forget good teaching!

[rvhill]

here is Jesus' answer to your question

Joh 10:7  Jesus therefore said unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
Joh 10:8  All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Joh 10:9  I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture.
Joh 10:10  The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.
Joh 10:11  I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:12  He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth them:
Joh 10:13  he fleeth because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
Joh 10:14  I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me,
Joh 10:15  even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16  And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.
Joh 10:17  Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
Joh 10:18  No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father.

[skydreamers]

Hi Alex,

This is a tough one to explain to anyone deeply entrenched in carnal thinking.  Most of us have a natural instinct (carnally) to cling to our physical life. But Jesus said:

For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Matthew 16:25

Thousands of people lived and died to fulfill scripture and become a message to God's Elect.  They themselves did not receive the promises:

Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated-- of whom the world was not worthy--wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 11:36-40


What were the meanings and purposes of the lives of those who lived in Old Testament times?

I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play." We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
1 Corinthians 10:1-11


I know this wouldn't satisfy your friend.  Aside from the physical, these things that happened in the scripture cited in your post, are spiritual lessons/messages.  These towns/people were following after other gods....all that is in us, which follows after other gods, which is carnal and sinful must be COMPLETELY destroyed....not one bit of the carnal man must survive.

Behold, these, on Balaam's advice, caused the people of Israel to act treacherously against the LORD in the incident of Peor, and so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.
Numbers 31:16-18


I believe "the young girls" is referring to the Elect:

It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb
Revelation 14:4


I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:2

You see?  When you begin to discern these things spiritually, they take on a whole different layer of meaning.  But good luck trying to show this to your friend, who is obviously seeing things only physically.

Pray for his eyes to be opened, only God can make him see.

Peace to you,
Diana

[sansmile]

Amen Diana,
Great scripture He also said He ordered it so that they would know He was Lord.

God bless

Sandie

[gmik]

True Sandie.

Diana, the Numbers-Rev-2 Cor was inspired.  Thanks. I hadn't thought of it like that.

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Alex,

This is a tough one to explain to anyone deeply entrenched in carnal thinking.  Most of us have a natural instinct (carnally) to cling to our physical life. But Jesus said:

For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Matthew 16:25

Thousands of people lived and died to fulfill scripture and become a message to God's Elect.  They themselves did not receive the promises:

Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated-- of whom the world was not worthy--wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 11:36-40


What were the meanings and purposes of the lives of those who lived in Old Testament times?

I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play." We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.
1 Corinthians 10:1-11


I know this wouldn't satisfy your friend.  Aside from the physical, these things that happened in the scripture cited in your post, are spiritual lessons/messages.  These towns/people were following after other gods....all that is in us, which follows after other gods, which is carnal and sinful must be COMPLETELY destroyed....not one bit of the carnal man must survive.

Behold, these, on Balaam's advice, caused the people of Israel to act treacherously against the LORD in the incident of Peor, and so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves.
Numbers 31:16-18


I believe "the young girls" is referring to the Elect:

It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb
Revelation 14:4


I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ.
2 Corinthians 11:2

You see?  When you begin to discern these things spiritually, they take on a whole different layer of meaning.  But good luck trying to show this to your friend, who is obviously seeing things only physically.

Pray for his eyes to be opened, only God can make him see.

Peace to you,
Diana

Wow thank you so much Diana, God has truly used you this day to open my eyes some more, this was an awsome post and made the most sence out of all the posts i've read on this subject. Thank you so much!

I'll pray if the Lord wills it but i doubt that He will say it, He doesn't even believe in Christ, but He was questioning me and so i was prompted to reply, with wordly knowledge and not the mind of Christ. Thanks for showing me what that mind of Christ see's, because now i see it too!

Love in Christ,

Alex

[Robert]

They are difficult scriptures for sure. Many of what you quoted is about war, and war is always ugly. War kills people, and usually the wrong people, the ‘innocent’ people. We can ‘spiritualise’ the wars of the OT and maybe get some spiritual truths, but they did happen, in reality, as described. Children were killed. Men and women died, and so did soldiers. It was ugly. It was a typical war.
World War 2 is a typical example, ending as it did with the nuking of Nagasaki and Hiroshima with thousands of non-military men, women and children vaporised or dying in agony.
Plenty of people have pontificated on what the alternative could have been, but in reality the alternatives would have still been thousands of deaths, and many more allied deaths. What would it have taken in reality to convince the Japanese that the Emperor was not in fact a descendant of the sun god? War is ugly, isn’t it?
War comes down to cold mathematics, strategies and reducing the beliefs of the enemy. There is no ‘noble’ war. Now hold that thought; and read again what and where the wars of the OT were.
Maybe you would like to suggest what you or your friend would have done if you had the choice of dropping the bombs on Japan or not? Would you have prayed to God for guidance? What could have been the possible answers? (No, bomb Tokyo instead. Or, don’t use the nuclear bombs, continue with the fire-bombs, or perhaps just give up and go home, and let the Japanese have their way).  I say this because there is no easy answer; the Israelites were faced with crush or be crushed. And they did pray to God, just like you and I would have.
Your friend may conclude that wars are about religion. Well, Atheism supposedly had an answer but Mao, Marx, Lenin and Castro have yet to deliver and their record so far isn’t good. War is from sin, and the sinful heart has to be destroyed.

[Sorin]

Forget it.......

[Kat]

Maybe this subject is just something that we can not understand while we are in the flesh, and do not fully have the mind of Christ. 
But should not be a point of contention, because what happened is what God desired, whether we agree or not.

Isa 45:9  "Woe to him who strives with his Maker, an earthen vessel with the potter! Does the clay say to Him who fashions it, 'What are you making'? or 'Your work has no handles'?

Here's an email from Ray. 

Dear Ray,
 
Why did God command Israel to murder in the OT despite the commandment "Thou Shall Not Kill"? Didnt Jesus say, "love your enemies"?
 
Thanks for everything, God has truly blessed me through your site. Hope to hear from you soon God bless.
 
Joed
 

Dear Joed:
You have it completely backwards:  God commanded Israel to "kill" their enemies, however, the seventh commandment is "thou shalt not MURDER." The same holds for the New Tesament commandment (Matt. 5:21). The translators didn't quite get that one right.  God used his physical nation of Israel to Judge the heathens in the land of Canaan, where as in the future God will use his Spiritual Nation of Israel to Judge the whole word system of Babylon the Great.
God be with you,
Ray
------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[aktikt]

There are times when God gives us all the knowledge about something and times when He doesn't. 

KJV - King James
Act 1:7  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

However, we must go about our search for what we don't know in faith that God is good and perfect despite appearances to the contrary.

YLT - Young's Literal
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one [is] good except One -- God;

Jesus gives us confidence that we can overcome extreme obstacles.

KJV - King James
Mar 11:21  And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
Mar 11:22  And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
Mar 11:23  For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

We have a High Priest who understands and shares / shared our weaknesses.   

KJV - King James
Hbr 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
Hbr 4:16  Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we mayobtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

So, ask, seek, and knock and the door will be opened to you.  But, don't ask, seek, and knock unless you believe and trust God to give you a fish instead of a serpent. 

Josh