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[Tom]

I have been carefully studying the theme of Universal Reconciliation, both in L. Ray Smith's writings, and Gary Amirault's writings, as well as many others, and I have a few questions for those who write here.  I'll preface my comments with saying this, while I have some reservations on this theme, my questions are not borne of some desire to argue, debate, or wrangle with anyone.  They are serious and genuine questions.  I hope they will be received as such.  I'm new here...

I've carefully considered all the word studies surrounding Olam, Aionios, judgment, the lake of fire, and Gehenna, and I'm concerned with a few conclusions, but my mind is not set in stone.  Having studied and taught the original languages has given me a unique opportunity to research these words, and in many cases I'm very supportive of the insights I see in the UR writings, but in some cases I wrestle with whether word meanings have been a bit stretched to support emphases I don't see clearly referenced in the scriptures.

While I too question the "endless" nature of future judgments, based on these words and themes, where I'm unsettled is the "apparent emphasis" of both OT and NT scriptures as relates to these themes.

I understand that fire is often symbolic of purification, and judgment often leads to growth and maturity, but it seems that saying these two themes "always" lead in these directions seems to miss the emphasis in scripture.

When both OT and NT writers write of these themes, if they clearly had a positive and hope filled view of the ages to come, why do they, when discussing judgment, not express their optimism towards positive and redemptive outcomes?  In other words, it seems they consistently miss their logical opportunities to present a salvational view of the coming ages, in the sense of describing "how" the judgments and fires will bring forth a saved company of redeemed ones.  Why do you think they fail to "clearly" discuss such an optimistic viewpoint?

If the writers of scripture truly believed that souls would be redeemed through the judgment process, why don't we see them coming right out and saying this?  Why don't we see them emphasizing or describing anyone having come through the fires of judgment and out the other side saved and praising God?

Why does it appear that their emphasis is on the fearfulness of judgments, the awesomeness of His holiness confronting the sinful rejection of man, rather than emphasizing the hope of those who leave this life unsaved being saved through the process of judgment?  Why do they seem to leave an impression of the finality of man's decisions towards rejection of Christ in this life?  If they didn't think of these decisions as indeed "final" why do you think they left the impression that they did?

I'd love to get this resolved in my mind, but I'm genuinely stuck at this point.

I'd appreciate knowing how some of you have worked through this issue of "emphasis."

Thanks!
Tom

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Tom

Welcome to the Forum and your first post.

For the first 500 years aprox after the death of Christ, the preaching and teaching was on the saving of all mankind as in Universalism, as I understand the progression of teachings.

As Paul prophesied, the corruption and the wolves would enter the sheep fold and things would progressively get rough and become so wicked that at the finale, Christ projected that there would be very little faith when He returns. Christ indicated that it would be parallel to the times of Noah when wickedness pervaded all the earth and only 8 people were saved from the flood. that is how bad apostasy will become.

So everything is on track according to the scriptures!

I too studied Gary Amiraults writings for a while until I found some errors....some grey areas and some places in his writing that I could not settle in my heart. So I abandoned reading his very well written articles because I preferred to stay with the ease and clarity with which Ray is inspired.

Others have also written on Universalism and I must say, they too fall into the same class in which I place Amirault......! This is of course just my own personal observation. You may need to continue to seek and compare teachings. Only HIS (Christ Jesus) SPIRIT can give understanding. Hope you receive what you are seeking soon. His will be done!

peace be to you in your studies.

Arcturus

[Tom]

Hi Arcturus,

Thanks for the welcome.

I agree that the writings of those after the times of the apostles appear to support UR, but I'm still curious as to why you think Paul, and the other NT writers emphasized the seriousness, finality, and lack of hope, in the judgments of God upon those rejecting Christ and dieing in this condition, if in fact they believed they had hope for redemption after death?

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Tom

I believe you have been influenced by erroneous interpretations! 

Paul grieved for the suffering and the blindness and the lostness that would occur. He warned exhorted and encouraged throughout his teachings. This was not unlike Jesus who cried for those who He would have taken under His wings like a mother hen but they would not have Him. These were things to experience that are the ways of God bringing us to know good from evil. Just because it ends in the glory and joy that Paul knew and wrote about being so much MORE than any sufferings that were temporary, did not mean that either Paul or Jesus were impervious to the pain. To be so would be to extend this thought up to God the Father and to think that He was impervious to the pain Jesus suffered which would be blasphemy and denial of knowing God is LOVE.


Peace be to you

Arcturus

[Tom]

Hi Arcturus,

You write: "I believe you have been influenced by erroneous interpretations!"

I can't imagine that you would be wrong about that.  Living in a body with a soul that has been twisted by sin, but is being, and will one day be fully redeemed, I'm sure I still embrace erroneous interpretations, but it certainly is my desire to move beyond those into all truth.  This is why I'm engaging you in this discussion.  I appreciate your concern...

If you could point me to one more scriptures, where NT writers describe or emphasize a hope for redemption at the conclusion of coming ages of judgment, I would really appreciate it.  I'm at a loss to find them.  I see plenty on awesome and scary finality, but I don't see any that imply a soul will be redeemed at the conclusion of a process of refining and purification.  Can you point me to some?

Blessings...
Tom

[Kat]

Hi Tom,

I glad you have joined us  
I would say that the apostles do make a strong emphasis in the NT to obtain the first resurrection or the incorruptible crown.

1Co 9:24  Do you not know that those running in a race all run, but one receives the prize? So run, that you may obtain.
v. 25  And everyone who strives for the mastery is temperate in all things. Then those truly that they may receive a corruptible crown, but we an incorruptible.

But they also speak quite a bit about the resurrection of the dead, that all men should have hope in.

Act 17:30  Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
v. 31  because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

Act 24:15  I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life.

1Co 15:21  For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
v. 22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
v. 23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
v. 25  For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.

1Tim 2:4  who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
v. 5  For God is one, and there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,
v. 6  who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1Tim 4:10  For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Col 1:20  And through Him having made peace through the blood of His cross, it pleased the Father to reconcile all things to Himself through Him,
whether the things on earth or the things in Heaven.

2Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1Jo 2:2  And He is the propitiation concerning our sins, and not concerning ours only, but also concerning the sins of all the world.

All these scripture show that all the world will be brought to salvation.  For the few it is in this life, but the rest of mankind will also be brought into the kingdom at their appointed time.
I hope this helps.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Sure Tom and I am happy you see my concern!

Read this : Is "Everlasting" Scriptural?...  You will find it on the Home page...it has got real gems in it! Just what I think you are seeking! 

Enjoy!

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[Deborah-Leigh]

Here is another snippet for you Tom : http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3684.0.html

Also you can go to : http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3108.0.html where Kat has astutely compiled a list. Scroll down to Born/Begotten and find some more food for thought!

I can just say there is no quick fix. Sometimes Ray responds by saying that the question requires many pages of answers. I know you want just one scripture but just one scripture of Gods Word has unfathomable depth that we have to discover. That is part of the plan. The good gems are hidden and not on the surface!

Let me know how you go after reading through and if you get stuck keep going!

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[Tom]

Greetings Kat!
Thanks again Arcturus!

I'd like to address Kat's comments first...

I 100% agree with you Kat, that these verses clearly imply that through some manner (presumably the workings of God's grace and judgments) all mankind will one day come to salvation in Christ.  

However, because many have questioned, and reasonably exegeted these portions of Scripture, and see something different than what "appears" to be their meaning, I turn to a slightly different issue, though definitely connected.

It has do with the seemingly negative element of judgments, and a seeming lack of hope connected with them.  For example, we consider the following:

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Having carefully studied UR interpretation of "vengeance," "punished," "everlasting," "destruction," and "from the presence of the Lord," I know the approach that can be taken to purificative elements that are potentially included in these words meanings, but I'm struck by the "emphasis" of these words.  The emphasis is completely harsh and negative, not hopeful and positive.  We would have anticipated the great grace man, Paul, would have at the very least concluded his comments with something like "however, at the completion of God's judging processes, their souls will, having been purified by His holy fires, be fully redeemed," but he doesn't, and when the other writers of the NT address this theme of judgment they similarly don't paint a picture of hope for those being judged.  Why?

2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11  Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Once again, understanding the potentially positive elements of spiritual fire, unto purification, I'm struck by the seemingly negative approach Peter takes to this issue.  He doesn't imply any hope, anything positive, other than the Lord's righteousness being vindicated.  Why?

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Jud 1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

As I have mentioned previously, I've carefully studied the potential meanings of "everlasting, eternal, and forever," and am aware that these all could very easily be referring to a temporary age of judgment, to be followed by redemption, after the workings of grace and divine workings, BUT, why does Jude not paint a hopeful picture for them?  Why is his picture so overwhelmingly negative, if he saw something positive beyond the age of judgment?

Heb 10:26  For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I'm struck again, by the writer of Hebrews, with how negative a picture he paints.  Why, if he "knew" they would all ultimately be redeemed, would he speak so negatively.  Surely you wouldn't have spoken this way, would you?  I can't imagine bro Smith would have.  Each of you would have been deeply concerned that such phraseology would leave a wrong impression of hopelessness and despair, for those who leave this life unsettled with Christ, yet this writer seems to "want" to leave a hopeless and dire sense in the minds of his readers.  Why?

Honestly brethren, I'm not attempting to stir up an argument here.  I'm genuinely struggling with their emphasis.  I don't understand how, if they ultimately believed everyone, after severe judgments and refinings, were going to be redeemed and delivered, they are so willing to leave an impression that speaks otherwise.  This truly confuses me.  

I'm very interested in your perspectives on this perplexing emphasis they leave.

Thank you again!
Tom

 

[Tom]

Hi Arcturus,

Yes, yes, I completely agree that "everlasting" potentially, and even likely,doesn't mean "everlasting" as we would think of it.  I agree that both Olam and Aionios are capable of temporal meanings, and for anyone to construct an "endless" concept of judgment from these words, is to do so in the face of so many obvious passages that communicate a temporary nature to them.

I too think it is highly likely the biblical writers did not have an "eternal" concept as was derived in later generations.  I believe many of the translations are little more than eisogesis (reading in personal preference or later word meanings) for these words.

My struggle is not so much with the temporary or endless issues of UR.  They are far more with the "hope" versus "despair" aspect that the NT writers imply.  I don't see them emphasizing or referencing hope beyond God's judgments, when they are discussing those judgments.  I would have thought they would, if they indeed believed there was hope beyond them.

I appreciate your engaging me in these matters, as my only intention is to come to the truth.

Tom

[Tom]

Arcturus,

Thank you for the list of teachings by bro Ray.  As I mentioned previously, my comments are not based on surface study in this area.  I have actually read everything bro Ray has to say on this topic.  What I have not seen addressed sufficiently is this issue of NT emphasis.

My studies show me that this issue could go either way.  In other words, there may be endless torments, and there may not be.  There may be judgments and spiritual fires unto purification and deliverance, and they may continue indefinitely.  The end of judgments may very well be annihilation, or they may not end, or they may lead forth to salvation.  The words studies alone have left me inconclusive at this point, and unwilling to settle with either those who maintain endless punishment, or those who see annihilation, or those who see deliverance and salvation after judgments.

If, as you see, the writers have such a positive understanding as you indicate, I don't understand why they are as seemingly unsuccessful at communicating their optimism.  Why are they so pessimistic, as relates to the outcomes of judgment, when they address the theme of judgment?

Thank you for your patience with these questions!

Tom

[Craig]

Why are they so pessimistic, as relates to the outcomes of judgment, when they address the theme of judgment?

Are the writers pessimistic or the translators?  Is it possible the translators had an agenda at the time?  History shows how corrupt religion and its leaders where throughout history, do you think it is possible they disguised and camouflaged the "good news" of the scriptures? 

One other thing, judgement will not be a walk in the park and will be a very painful experience for most, and that is what the writers warn of.

Just some thoughts.

Craig

[Tom]

Hi Craig,

Thanks for your input!

I suppose it is possible, that the translators put their biased spin on verses relating to the nature of judgment, but because I don't personally have a bias, simply a hunger for truth, having carefully studied these passages from the Greek, while I think they could have done a far better job in translating Aionios, the emphasis they portray seems pretty close to the actual emphasis of the Greek texts.

I'd love to see a far more consistent dealing with Aionios, and see it translated "age," implying brackets (...) indicating beginning of an age and ending of an age, but I think the translators biases hindered them from doing this.  But, when it came to picking up and accurately communicating the tenor of these writers sentiments on judgment I think they did a pretty good job.  The writers, for whatever reason, just don't seem to have a positive outcome view of divine judgments.

Certainly we would have to agree that not all judgments "in time" have positive outcomes for the offenders.  The stories of scripture portray very negative outcomes, at least in this life, for those who persisted in sin and were harshly dealt with by God.  Whether we are viewing the Canaanites, or the 185,000 Assyrians, or the various other enemies of Israel, and including the generation that was judged and drug off to Assyria, their outcomes in this life were horrible.  Nothing positive there.

Therefore, it would seem reasonable to ask of at least a few NT writers the question "Do you see a positive outcome of judgment in the coming ages, and if so, where do you describe those positive outcomes?"  I just don't find any examples.  If they are there I would appreciate someone pointing them out for me, because I've missed them.

Thanks again Craig!

Tom

[Craig]

Tom,

I wanted to also say I know where you are coming from.  For the years I was in Babylon I wondered what and where was the good news?  Preachers and teachers would tell of the good news, but deep in my being I could not see the "good news" they spoke of.  I saw a god of failure and most all the people I have ever known and cared about was going to spend eternity in hell.

When God opened my eyes to the truths of scripture I see the good news as plain as day, it was always there, but hidden in the dirt of religions covering.  When I study scripture now the bible is like a new book.  And the good news is in every page.

Craig

[GODSown1]

Hey hi TOM & Welcum 2 da Forum,
                                             Much Blessnz 2 U, um! wot came 2 mind wen I read wot U had 2 say & want 2 know. Was Yes hw do we know da Truths/Mysteries of GOD had been recieved by dez writters of da NT den?. Wen we ourselves r jus startn 2 c dem here n da Forum n 2007, Well d@s about all I can say & feel Willed 2 , b strong & Patient ma Brother in CHRIST.
                                             muchLOVE!! Pera
 ps. xcuse ma way of writing TOM lol!

[Tom]

Craig,

I agree with you brother.  The good news is becoming so clear.

For the sake of this forum, I'd like to add a few other thoughts...

I see an image of God in Christ that far surpasses the image I saw as a hireling in the institutional systems of religion that I used to partake of.  Theirs was often a use of fear to manipulate for everything they wanted.  It was as though much of what they knew revolved around fear, legalism, and control.  It became stifling and helped open my eyes to a far larger vision of the grace, love, and goodness of God.

Having come as out of those systems as I have (I'm sure some of it still lingers within me...) I love what I see in Christ these days, and my image of Him is that of conquering by love.  However, having said that, I must admit that I'm cautious about an emphasis on the love and grace of God that may well fail to take sufficient account of His justice.

I see God as being the ultimate communicator, and not one Who hides His truth from the truly seeking hearts.  As I have studied the theme of UR I have been led to what I think is the love of God balanced by the wisdom of God.  In other words, I think God could easily have communicated a far more positive emphasis surrounding the theme of judgment, than He did, so I ask myself and Him the question of "why" the emphasis that is there?

I think, but I'm not absolutely certain, but I think the answer lies in His wisdom knowing that if He revealed too much of the glories of heaven it might just lead the independant minded sinner to conclude he could live in sin here and enter heaven later, after God helped him to see what he didn't want to see here.  I think God could easily have said far more about the optimistic approach to judgment that many who are solidly URs believe they see.  If He had wanted us to have such a hugely optimistic understanding, as I read among those who are settled in UR, I believe there is much more He would have said about the positive outcomes of His judgments.  But...He doesn't.  In fact, He paints a very bleak and dire picture.

It seems to me He gave us enough to "suspect" there will be a positive resolution for everyone, but not enough to be "certain" He will.  I incline towards a positive outcome, but I'm not certain of one.  I'm sure many here would conclude I just need a further revelation of God's love and goodness, to complete my understanding of His image, and I'm open to that possibility.

What I think to be more the case though is that we are not given enough for much of the optimism I read on this topic.  I'm not saying there won't be positive outcomes, but I am saying it is an optimism that none of the writers of the NT evidenced in their writings.  They are relatively silent where many UR folks are intensely vocal.  

I think I'm open to further light in this area, but thus far my theory of His seeming silence, where I would have expected Him to be far more demonstrative, inclines me towards the conclusions I'm coming to.

I'm very hesitant to be more optimistic in my writing and teaching than I see the apostles being.  I suspect we are not to "know" as thoroughly as many "seem" to know.  I supect it is because of the fragility of the human soul, and its tendency to look for reasons to put off a decision for submission to God.

I know many of the UR writings dismiss the notion that teaching UR will cause the disobedient to remain disobedient, and to embrace a "we'll see..." attitude about the next life, but I'm not so certain that this concern is invalid.  Mankind is continually looking for excuses to justify fleshly behavior...why not all the more so where it comes to submitting to His call upon their souls for faith in Christ?

Thus, He paints a picture of judgment that leads mankind to fear a Christless next age.  At the same time He paints a picture of glories of the next ages, and His deep and powerful love for all.  Both themes seem sooo evident.  I wonder if we are to reflect both of these themes, not fully settle on UR in this life, and trust in His wise goodness and wisdom to resolve all things according the good intentions of His perfect will?

These are just my spiritual ruminations.  I'm still very open to correction and light from Jesus.

Blessings!
Tom

[Tom]

Greetings GODSown1,

I follow what you are saying, and I suppose it is possible, but I guess I'm not ready to conclude I have greater light than my NT writing brothers had.

I see myself as anointed at times, certainly filled with the Spirit, but I tend to believe they walked in a revelation not given to others outside their specific apostolic calling.  It would be a far stretch for me to think that I know more about this position than they did, or that anyone else does.

I appreciate the perspective you bring, and I certainly wouldn't want to sell God short, in terms of His power to reveal Himself to all generations.


Thanks!
Tom

[GODSown1]

Hi again TOM,
                  first of all thanx on ur understandn of wot I hav sed (phew!! lol!), But! I jus wanna add I wasnt sayn U were n e greater or lesser den da writters of da Gospels, I believe 1 shouldnt put a Limit on his/her being, az GOD is our Creator our Deliverer etc etc, weneva it is ur time 2 know this or that it is soully up 2 our Creators timing!, Right!? , GODBLESS! U, I know n the name of JESUS alL will b revealled 2 U, GOD! Willing Amen.
                   muchLOVE!! Pera

ps. Peace, Grace & Mercy 2 U brother.

[Tom]

Hey GODSown1,

Thanks!  It is always assuring to know that none of us are very far away from the Father's revelation.  If there are things I haven't seen, but need to see, then in His time it will happen.

Do you feel you have some light on the issue of "emphasis" the writers evidence?

Tom

[GODSown1]

Amen 2 d@ TOM,
        Yes TOM I believe wot has been sed frm others is probably a more n depth of wot Ive been sayn takecare ma brotner Peace 2 U.
         muchLOVE!! Pera