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[Tom]

Kat,

That's exactly the direction I was going with my comments.

How can the OT prophets have such an optimistic approach of Israel's future, if the majority of Israel is damned to everlasting hell?  It just doesn't make any sense!  This is an area that keeps nudging me closer and closer to resolution on this matter.  If all we had was the OT I don't think we would ever have had the doctrinal conflicts we have over this area.

Those who fully buy into the endless hell approach, do so almost exclusively from the NT, and when asked what they do with the absence of the endless hell doctrine in the OT, their basic answer is, "Well, that's not surprising.  They had a little light, and spoke from the little light they had, but when the Spirit came, more light on this topic came, and thus we see an endless hell was always in God's plans."  It is amazing to me how logical this seems to them.  It says so little about the mercy of God to provide an adequate warning to millions and millions of lost souls in the OT.

One of the things I've pondered, is if Christians really believed, at a deep heart level, that the majority of mankind was actually going to spend eternity in a tormenting hell, they would be far more intense about their communication of the gospel to the unsaved.  I think we all know, at a level we can hardly articulate, that it is umimaginable that God would actually place people in endless torment, thus our sense of urgency for the lost is tempered by some mysterious "knowing" that there will yet be future opportunities to sort things out.  I know this is a weak argument for UR, but it is one I've pondered.  It is another one of those inner nudging voices in the UR direction.

Thanks again Kat.  I'm hearing you!
Tom

[Chris R]

Chris R,

So many verses in the OT make little sense without a UR understanding.

I agree, as regards the lack of discussion of anything that looks like a doctrine of endless Hell in the OT. When I find someone I think I can trust to not pounce on me as a heretic, for even thinking about the UR doctrine, I will often ask them the following question: "If you only had the OT to teach of an endless and tormentous Hell, where would take me to see that approach?"  It leaves them stumped.  There are a couple of verses in Isaiah that look somewhat inclined in that direction, but given Isaiah is just one book, and does not represent early theological understandings in the earth, if the majority of OT peoples are destined to an eternal Hell, without ever being warned of its excrutiating nature, how would that be just?  It is, to my way of thinking, a compelling argument.

I know my wus approach to not wanting to be considered a heretic could be considered pretty sick, but to my way of thinking, until I'm settled in my understanding of this issue, I'm not going to blow the emotions and hearts of those I relate closely to, prematurely.  I did it one time before, in my early studies of UR, and you would have thought I had come right out and told them I considered Jesus to be the devil.  I'll take the heat when I'm clear and confirmed in it, but for now I'm pretty careful about who I talk about these things to.

Thanks again for the perspective.

I know there are many deeper issues in our walk with Christ, than just UR, but for now it is one area I'm seeking light and settling in.  Thanks for indulging my hunger for truth.

Tom

Hi Tom,

Sure i understand, i was there once, And to be honest, i still get blank stares from old friends, I taught this ridiculous doctrine in Sunday School, Performed in special programs, Played instruments, sung songs, Got goose bumps when the preacher shouted in tongues. Went forward, got baptized, cried, howled, raised my hands, and shouted a lot of "A-Mens"

I thought I was so happy, I mean, come on... i was going to heaven, and everyone else outside my immediate church buddies were going to hell..all the Catholics, and Baptists, Methodists, ..none of them had the "real" truth..yep..straight to the pit for everyone but me and my pals...

Why didnt i have a little compassion for those others?...i'll tell you why!...Because it didnt effect ME one IOTA!..I would be quite content watching billions of men, women and children sizzle in unimaginable agony, SO WHAT...it wasn't me..I could sit and eat popcorn and laugh at the screams of the horrific pain riddled bodies gasping for air, only to sink once more into the fiery lake of molten hot liquid.

Let me tell you this....no SANE human being could STAND that view for 2 minutes. let alone 1 hour...let alone a week....now..lets ADD ETERNITY?

When i read Rays papers..it took me 10 seconds.....I mean 10 SECONDS to REPENT of such utter trash...and i could care less who knows it!..It is the most DIOBOLICAL destructive doctrine EVER to be hatched in the depraved minds of mankind!

Are we to then expect the very Same God that instructs us to LOVE our enemies, will then torture all his enemies for all eternity?

 1Cr 15:19  If in [b]this life only [/b] we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

Anyway done rambling..

Peace

Chris R

[bobf]

When both OT and NT writers write of these themes, if they clearly had a positive and hope filled view of the ages to come, why do they, when discussing judgment, not express their optimism towards positive and redemptive outcomes?  In other words, it seems they consistently miss their logical opportunities to present a salvational view of the coming ages, in the sense of describing "how" the judgments and fires will bring forth a saved company of redeemed ones.  Why do you think they fail to "clearly" discuss such an optimistic viewpoint?

Tom, here is my understanding.  If the salvation of all mankind were spelled out clearly, how would the meaning of owlam life and owlam judgment be still sealed?  It must be sealed, because it says so here:

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3  And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. 4  But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Surely the "sealed words" would include at least the prior two verses wouldn't they?  If they are sealed they are not to be undertood.  Notice that the wise will TURN MANY to righteousness. That must be sealed too.

12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. 6  And one said to the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders? 7  And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished. 8  And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9  And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Noticed that Daniel asked what the outcome of all these things will be but he was told that the understanding of that is sealed.  Only the wise and pure wil understand.

[Zade]

If the writers of scripture truly believed that souls would be redeemed through the judgment process, why don't we see them coming right out and saying this?

I've struggled with this too. Why don't we have ONE clear statement of universal reconciliation that could absolutely never be denied by the church? There are some pretty clear cut statements, but the church manages to find their way around them. Why isn't there ONE verse, "Every single person who has ever lived and will ever live will be saved" Yknow what, why aren't there verses like that on every single page of the Bible???

Because It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. (Proverbs 25:2) It can not be so obvious that it is undeniable, because God NEEDS deniers for his plan. Right now, God is blinding a lot of eyes, and that's part of his plan. If UR was undeniable, how could he blind eyes? He aboslutely needs Babylon to fulfill his plan.

 Ray said it in one of the audios: "God wrote this book so people wouldn't understand it, and every generation he chooses out some people to understand this book" And that's His plan. He COULD OF made UR undeniable, but that isn't his plan. And it's a good plan, because he's righteous in all of his ways.

[DuluthGA]

Hi again Tom.  I sure am enjoying your thread.  It is good to challenge my thoughts.  Here are a few more verses to hopefully inspire you.  Some are direct UR-type verses, some verses are given for support conceptually.  Most are KJV.  I tried not to repeat any of those previously mentioned; if I accidentally did, sorry.     These verses are in no particular order.

Rom 3: 22-23     Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ UNTO ALL AND UPON THEM THAT BELIEVE:  FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE:  FOR ALL HAVE SINNED, and come short of the glory of God:

John 12: 32     "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW ALL MEN unto me."

Psalms 86: 9     ALL NATIONS whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Luke 3: 6     And ALL FLESH shall see the salvation of God.

Isaiah 52: 10    The Lord hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD.

Gen 22: 18     And in thy seed shall ALL THE NATIONS OF THE EARTH be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Rom 11: 36     And so ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 5: 10,18     For IF, WHEN WE WERE ENEMIES, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son, MUCH MORE, being reconciled, WE SHALL BE SAVED by his life..... Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon ALL MEN to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life.

Rom 8: 29     That, whom He foreknew, HE DESIGNATES beforehand, also, TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, for Him to be a firstborn among many brethren. [CLNT]

Rom 9: 18, 21     Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth...... Hath not the potter POWER OVER THE CLAY, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 9: 19b     ..... for who has withstood HIS INTENTION? [CLNT]

Rom 9: 22-23     What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured [Greek = carries] with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION:  And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which HE HAD AFORE PREPARED UNTO GLORY.

Isaiah 64: 8     But now, O Lord, thou art our father; WE ARE THE CLAY, and THOU OUR POTTER; and WE ALL ARE THE WORK OF THY HAND.

Phil 2: 13     for IT IS GOD WHO IS OPERATING IN YOU to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.  [CLNT]

2Tim 1: 9     [God] Who SAVES US and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but IN ACCORD WITH HIS OWN PURPOSE and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian.  [CLNT]

Rom 12: 44     For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to EVERY MAN the measure of faith.

Rom 11: 8     What then?  What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it.  Now the rest were calloused, even as it is written, GOD GIVES THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day.  [CLNT]

Acts 13: 47b     I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for SALVATION UNTO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH.

Jeremiah 32: 27     Behold, I am the Lord, the God of ALL FLESH: is there any thing too hard for me?

Prov 11: 31     Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth:  MUCH MORE THE WICKED AND SINNER.

Heb 3: 4     For every house is builded by some man; but HE THAT BUILT ALL THINGS IS GOD.

1Cor 11: 12     For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but ALL THINGS ARE FROM GOD.

Prov 16: 4     the Lord hath made ALL THINGS for himself: yea, EVEN THE WICKED for the day of evil.

Matt 19: 25-26     When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED?  Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, "With men this is impossible; but WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE."

Isaiah 40: 5     And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and ALL FLESH shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Isaiah 42: 16     And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known:  I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight.  These things WILL I DO unto them, AND NOT FORSAKE THEM.

Isaiah 25: 8     He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off ALL faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off ALL THE EARTH: for the Lord hath spoken it.

Ezek 21: 7     And it shall be, when they say unto thee, Wherefore sighest thou? that thou shalt answer, For the tiding; because it cometh:  and EVERY heart shall melt, and ALL hands shall be feeble, and EVERY spirit shall faint, and ALL knees shall be weak as water:  behold, it cometh, and shall be brought to pass, saith the Lord God.

Psalm 65: 2     O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall ALL FLESH come.

Acts 3: 21     [Christ] whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS, of which God spake through the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age. 

Heb 1: 2     [God] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of ALL THINGS, by whom also he made the worlds;

John 1: 1-3     In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God.  ALL THINGS were made by him; and WITHOUT HIM WAS NOT ANY THING MADE THAT WAS MADE.

Psalms 67:7     God shall bless us; and ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH shall fear [reverence/honor] him.

Psalms 72: 8     HE SHALL HAVE DOMINION also from sea to sea, and from the river UNTO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH.

John 6: 45     "It is written in the prophets, And THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.  EVERY MAN therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, COMETH UNTO ME."  And ALL THY CHILDREN SHALL BE TAUGHT OF THE LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Isaiah 26: 9     With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of THE WORLD will learn righteousness.

Isaiah 11: 9     They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for THE EARTH shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Habakkuk 2: 14     For THE EARTH shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Phil 2: 13     For it is God which worketh in you both to will and do of his good pleasure.

Rom 14: 11     for it is written:  Living am I, the Lord is saying, For TO ME SHALL BOW EVERY KNEE, and EVERY TONGUE SHALL BE ACCLAIMING GOD!  [CLNT]

John 1: 12-13     Yet whoever obtained Him, to them HE GIVES THE RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD, TO THOSE who are believing in His name, who were BEGOTTEN, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but OF GOD.  [CLNT]

Rev 15: 4     Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name?  for thou only art holy: for ALL NATIONS shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Isaiah 66: 18     For I know their works and their thoughts; it shall come, that I WILL GATHER ALL NATIONS AND TONGUES; and THEY SHALL COME, AND SEE MY GLORY.

John 3: 35     The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL THINGS into his hand.

John 17: 1-2     These things speaks Jesus, and lifting His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, come has the hour.  Glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son should be glorifying Thee, according as Thou givest Him AUTHORITY OVER ALL FLESH, that EVERYTHING which Thou hast given to Him, He should be giving it to them, even life eonian."  [CLNT]

John 6: 37     "ALL that the Father giveth me SHALL COME TO ME; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

John 6: 39     "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of ALL which he hath given me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, but should raise it up again at the last day."

1Cor 4: 5     therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall EVERY MAN have praise of God.

John 6: 44     [Quoting Jesus]  "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW HIM; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6: 65     And he said, "Therefore said I unto you, that NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT IT WERE GIVEN UNTO HIM OF MY FATHER."

1Cor 12: 3     Wherefore I am making known to you that no one, speaking by God's spirit, is saying "Anathema is Jesus."  And NO ONE IS ABLE TO SAY "Lord is Jesus" EXCEPT BY HOLY SPIRIT. [CLNT]

Matt 11: 27     "ALL THINGS have been delivered to Me by My Father, and NO ONE knows the Son except the Father.  Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, AND THE ONE to whom the Son WILLS TO REVEAL HIM.  [NKJV] [Echoed in Luke 10: 22]

John 5: 15b     “… APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING ." [CLNT]

Acts 10: 36     The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: [HE IS LORD OF ALL.]

Isaiah 45: 22-23     Look unto me, and BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH for I AM GOD, and there is none else.  I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me EVERY knee shall bow, EVERY tongue shall swear [allegiance].

Daniel 4: 35     ALL the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; HE DOES ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth.  No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, "What have You done?"  [NKJV]

Jer 31: 34     And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, know the Lord: FOR THEY SHALL ALL KNOW ME from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord; for I will forgive THEIR iniquity, and I will remember THEIR sin no more.

Col 1: 14-15     [Christ] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:  Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of EVERY creature.

1John 4: 8     He that loveth not knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.

1Cor 13: 8a     LOVE NEVER FAILS:  [New King James Version]

1Cor 13: 4-5     Love is patient, is kind.  Love is not jealous.  LOVE IS NOT bragging, is not puffed up, is not indecent, is not self-seeking, is not incensed, is not TAKING ACCOUNT OF EVIL, [CLNT]

1Chron 29: 11     Yours, O Lord, is the greatness, the power and the glory.  The victory and the majesty; For ALL that is in heaven and in earth is Yours; Yours is the kingdom, O Lord, and You are exalted as HEAD OVER ALL. [NKJV]

I have more verses if you desire.  I started collecting them when I started reading Ray a year and a half ago.  There are many, and it helps to see them all at once.

Thank you for your kind words!  God be with you!

Janice/Caregiver

[Tom]

Chris R,

Thank you again!

Strong spiritual logic.

My heart is like a sponge for all your words.

Tom

[Tom]

Zada and Bobf,

Now that is a unique angle I admit to never having fully connected with.

Many times in these threads this theme has come forth.  Little by little this theme is impacting my heart.  Your words have hit deeply in a good way.  They cause such deep ripples of reflection, like a stone in a quiet pond, wave after wave spreads outwards in inward confirmations.

It seems strange to me that God conceals matters He so wants us to see, but I know you are right.  He does this.  It must have driven the disciples to near distraction, to walk with Jesus, and have so many questions, and yet He would only drop small potent droplets of truth on them at time, leaving them with way more questions than He was willing, at the time, to answer.

I remember telling one of my bible college students, "Confusion is the beginning of wisdom."  It came to me after they were confused over something I had taught, which they had not caught, and demanded I be clearer with them.  I basically told them they weren't ready for more, and they shot back with 1 Cor. 16 "God is not the author of confusion."  All I could think to say was "Jesus doesn't author confusion...His truth just bumps into your own personal confusion."  I think this is obviously His way with us.  We want it all "right now," and He knows better than to give it to us all in the moment we request it.

Just about every time the disciples asked Him a question, He answered their question with an answer to a question they should have been asking, but weren't, and the look in their eyes must have been..."Huh?".  I can just see Peter looking at John, puzzled for a moment, and then not wanting to look stupid, would have said, "Oh yah, I see what you mean.  Sure, I get in now.  Wow, thanks," knowing fully well he hadn't gotten a thing, but hoping the rest of the disciples would detect his dullness.  Fortunately for Peter they were all as dull as he was, all except for perhaps John.

Anyway, your answers are potent.

The cumulative effect of each of the different one's comments is powerful.

I assure you, I am listening...nearly overwhelmed by the sheer volume of the input, but definitely listening.

Thank you!
Tom

[gmik]

AWESOME!

I tried to print out this thread so I could study all the scriptures. 

Over 80 pages!!!!!!

Tom, welcome!  How I missed this thread I don't know.  I hope you feel at home.  I did feel the love coming thru.  Thank you for sharing so much about yourself.

[skydreamers]

The chosen are now the Jews not by birth, but by a circumcised heart.

Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
v. 29  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Now these chosen to be Jews, will also judge the Jewish nation.

Rom 2:27  And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?

To build on what Kat brought out:

Romans 11:1-27
1  I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.

2  God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?

3  "Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life."

4  But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

5  So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

6  But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7  What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

8  as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day."

9  And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them;

10  let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever."

11  So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

12  Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

13  Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry

14  in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them.

15  For if their rejection means the reconciliation OF THE WORLD, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?

16  If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17  But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

18  do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.

19  Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."

20  That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe.

21  For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

22  Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

23  And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

24  For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

25  Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

27  "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."


Peace,
Diana

[skydreamers]

Zada and Bobf, I wholeheartedly agree with Tom, that was excellent, very cool !

Janice....AWESOME...!!!

Amen and AMEN!!!

   

[Tom]

Hi Janice,

The sheer weight of the cumulative verses is awesome!

Thank you for taking the time to put them all into one thread.

This all reminds me of several verses:

1Co 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Eph 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph 3:3  How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

Eph 3:4  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Eph 3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Eph 6:19  And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Col 1:26  Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Col 1:27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Col 4:3  Withal praying also for us, that God would open unto us a door of utterance, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in bonds:

Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1Co 4:1  Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.

2Co 4:3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

Col 2:3  In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

2Co 3:14  But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ.

Rom 11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Joh 12:40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Act 3:17  And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

It is truly amazing that a God of truth would be so diligent to hide so much He wants His people to understand, but obviously He does.

Paul's entire life was a ministry based in taking the OT scriptures, which none of the rulers of past ages had seen truth in, and to reveal the mysteries that were there all the time...staring them in the face, but which they couldn't see.

I love what Jesus says in John 5:

Joh 5:38  And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39  Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40  And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jesus was there, all the time, in living color, in their OT scriptures, and they completely missed him.  I suppose it shouldn't surprise me if Pharisees such as myself and the many professional ministers I've ministered with, worldwide, missed many things around this theme too.  Only God can deliver us, and these last 7 years have been all about deliverance from error, and entering the light as it is in Christ.

Thank you for pressing these issues with me.  It is sinking in.

Tom

[Tom]

Gena,

Yes, I do feel welcome and received...overwhelmingly so!

Diana,

I have made it one of my life emphases to study and teach the book of Romans, and I admit that so many confusing pieces of the Romans puzzle seem far more resolved from a UR perspective.  Thanks for your input there.

Whew...you guys know how to pile on the food.  I feel like a kid with an unlimited meal ticket in a buffet restaurant...ha, ha!

Tom

[Tom]

To be honest with you guys...I'm beginning to feel a bit selfish here.  I've taken a great deal of your time, and I've been blessed beyond measure.

If you would like to let this thread rest I won't be offended.

My heart is stirred to the core, and I'm truly confident God will see me through to the conclusion of this matter.

I feel your prayers and your love, and I'm humbled beyond words.


God bless each of you!

Tom

[skydreamers]

Hey Tom,

I hope we haven't overwhelmed you...It's almost like we pounced on you non-stop eh?  (okay, yes I am Canadian... )  I can tell you are such a gentlemen, politely and graciously responding to everybody

We are so happy to have you here, and keep in mind all of us are continually learning from each other and edifying each other, as the body, no matter what questions are asked and who is asking them!  We are all blessed by the process...

Do take time to absorb and meditate, if that is what you need regarding this issue.  In the meantime, I look forward to learning from you, from your vast experience and insight into the scriptures.

By the way, your post in response to Janice was very inspiring...it's a keeper!  You deserve some smilies too...

         

I think I'm going to get out the paper like Gena and print out this thread.  Lots of food alright!

Peace and blessings to you,
Diana

[bobf]

I don't know why the greater part of christendom feels it must read into eonian an endless torment.  It mystifies me.  It's as if they have an emotional need to see it this way.  Much like men who can't stand the thought of women teaching them anything in Christ.  They read Paul's words through chauvinistic eyes, and see red when a woman of God tries to teach them anything.  Nonsense!

A couple of verses came to mind when I read what you wrote above.

Psalms 18:26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward. KJV

Interesting the ESV has it "with the purified you show yurself pure; and with the crooked you make yourself seem tortuous."

Luke 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

The disciples were not beyond seeing God through froward (twisted) hearts.  None of us are.  All of us have at one time or another felt superior and looking-down-our-noses enough to relish the idea of God raining fire down from heaven to devour our enemies, as if we are some how better than they are for seeing what we see.  But we know Paul said we are NOT better than they are.  All eye-opening is done by Jesus Christ who came to blind those who [think they] see, and to give sight to the [ones who see they are] blind.

The people who are gleeful about the idea of eternal torture in fire from God, do not know "what manner of spirit they are".

ps.  No Tom!  This is a GREAT thread and has blessed us all.

[jER]

When we reach the end of our journey, "We will be in His Presence."

May the Lord grant you traveling mercies - HIS GRACE!

- jER

[Tom]

To all...it has been a GREAT thread, and I appreciate each of you very very much!

jER, Diana, and Bobf, each of your comments bring such a blessing.

I fully admit, when I look up into His face I just cannot see One who would torment anyone endlessly.  I can't see One who would torment anyone for a moment.  If torment is experienced I suspect it will not be at His hands, but simply the resistence of a stubborn heart.

I am confident that He Who planned the plan will bring it to full and wonderful completion, and that no matter how it plays out we will see and embrace the wisdom of it all, either in the first or the second resurrection.  May it be the first...

Blessings for your great love!
Tom

[DuluthGA]

Thanks again Tom!

I pray God He lets the scales fall out of your eyes.

Joy, Janice

[lilitalienboi16]

Peeeek-a-BOO

I followed this whole thread, haha pretty amazing and like the rest i agree, so much food here =]

Great stuff!

Tom, Christ is truly at work in you brother, i can feel the love =]

Blessings to all,

Alex

[Chris R]

Hi Tom,

I will let the thread rest, thankyou all for the hundreds of scriptures given, Thankyou Tom for your sincerity.

I have found in the past years, Through the teachings of Ray Smith, The Hate I had for other men has melted away, While i still get angry concerning the twisted doctrines of eternal torment, It is the teachings i despise, and not the people who are deceived by them, If not for the grace of God, We would certainly still be among those that would turn their god into nothing more than a common thug.   

When you have meditated at length concerning the doctrine of eternal torment, i'm quite sure you will come to the same conclusion, There can be no "justice" in burning people for all eternity, its just insane.

Peace

Chris R