Nephilum

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Hi to All,

  My friend and I were discussing the Nephilum today.  Anyone know if Ray writes anything about them?  What do you all think of them?

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire

[mari_et_pere]

Ray writes about them somewhere. I'll try to dig something up. I think it's fascinating!

M@tt

[mari_et_pere]

Here's something I found in his e-mail section:

Nephilum is not really a translation. It is used twice in the Revised Standard Version where the King James has "giants." These giants are not the result of the sexual union of angels and women, but are the offspring of a man and woman. The same is true for the giants called "Rephaim." There were apparently clans of giant people in Canaan. (See Num. 13:33).

Not a tremendous help I know. I was taught by my Baptist school the same thing Ray says (about the Nephilum). However I've read many other places that they were indeed the offspring of fallen angels and human women, and one of the things that brought on the Flood in Noah's day. Either way, it's a fascinating subject to me.

M@tt

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Matt,

  Hmm, well I got something to go for now.  I had been taught that they were the offspring of angels and man.  I will certainly begin to research the angle that you have presented, and will share my findings.  Yeah, another project to.

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire

[skydreamers]

Hi Anne,
I was extremely fascinated with this subject about a year ago.  If you google nephilim you will get all sorts of information out there, some of it seemingly outrageous.  It is hard to imagine that spirit angels can procreate with humans.  I know the scriptures say angels in heaven do not marry.  But it seems that spirit beings can manifest into flesh and do fleshy things like eat (the angels with Abraham, and Jesus with his disciples).  I don't really know what to believe anymore after having done much research into this topic.  I highly respect what Ray has to say.   

I did find this interesting in my research however; the phrase "sons of God" in the hebrew is "bane eloheem".  This phrase in the hebrew is only found 5 times in the bible from what I can find:


1.  Genesis 6:2 ESV
the sons of God saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose.

2.  Genesis 6:4 ESV
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

3.  Job 1:6 ESV
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

4.  Job 2:1 ESV
Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.

5.  Job 38:7 ESV
when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?[/li]


There are those who contend that this phrase indeed refers to spirit angels based on the scripture above.  They say there is no way that human beings were with Satan presenting themselves before the Lord in the book of Job.  This is a mystery to me.  It seems convincing, but I've been convinced of things before only to find out I was wrong.

The thing is, what would be the meaning and purpose behind angels producing some sort of hybrid creatures with humans??  If you research this at all you will find all sorts of fantastical theories out there on hybrids and reptilians being produced out of this bizarre breed.  I think somewhere in scripture there is a description of them having six toes and obviously they are referred to as huge....and I've seen pictures of giants with six toes that are supposedly living to this day.  What does it all mean?? Who knows.  I have come to see that the spiritual meaning is much more important than the literal application. 

It's all very interesting on some level and it preoccupied me for many many hours at one time.  Spiritually it got me nowhere however.  That's not to say there isn't something to be learned, since we are told about them in the scriptures for a reason.  I would love to understand the spiritual application of the nephilim.  But I think I may have spent way too much time looking at it all too literally.  Having said that, I will still be following this thread with interest and love to see what you come up with Anne.  I can't help it....I'm still drawn to the mystery of it all.

Peace, Diana

[Kat]

Hi Anne and Diana,

This is a curious topic, so I looked into it.
I found in 'Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the OT' quite a long article on this (you can get this commentary from e-Sword).

Here is a small excerpt from that article.

If in the olden time there were pious men who, like Enoch and Noah, walked with Elohim, or who, even if they did not stand in this close priestly relation to God, made the divine image a reality through their piety and fear of God, then there were sons (children) of God, for whom the only correct appellation was "sons of Elohim," since sonship to Jehovah was introduced with the call of Israel, so that it could only have been proleptically that the children of God in the old world could be called "sons of Jehovah." But if it be still argued, that in mere prose the term "sons of God" could not have been applied to children of God, or pious men, this would be equally applicable to "sons of Jehovah." On the other hand, there is this objection to our applying it to angels, that the pious, who walked with God and called upon the name of the Lord, had been mentioned just before, whereas no allusion had been made to angels, not even to their creation.

These 'sons of God/Elohim' seem to be talking about people that lived a moral life and were seeking to serve and obey God.  They could not be considered among the elect tho, because Christ had not come as the Saviour yet.
Now the daughters of men, seem to be ungodly people, and to marry among them was seen as being unequally yolked.
Here is another excerpt.

"that the connection of Gen 6:1-8 with Gen 4 necessitates the assumption, that such intermarriages (of the Sethite and Cainite families) did take place about the time of the flood (cf. Mat 24:38; Luk 17:27); and the prohibition of mixed marriages under the law (Exo 34:16; cf. Gen 27:46; Gen 28:1.) also favours the same idea." But this "assumption" is placed beyond all doubt, by what is here related of the sons of God. In Gen 6:2 it is stated that "the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose," i.e., of any with whose beauty they were charmed; and these wives bare children to them (Gen 6:4). Now אשּׁה לקח (to take a wife) is a standing expression throughout the whole of the Old Testament for the marriage relation established by God at the creation, and is never applied to πορνεία, or the simple act of physical connection. This is quite sufficient of itself to exclude any reference to angels. For Christ Himself distinctly states that the angels cannot marry (Mat 22:30; Mar 12:25; cf. Luk 20:34.).
Gen 6:4
"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them: these are the heroes (הגּבּרים) who from the olden time (מעולם, as in Psa 25:6; 1Sa 27:08) are the men of name" (i.e., noted, renowned or notorious men). נפילים, from נפל to fall upon (Job 1:15; Jos 11:7), signifies the invaders (ἐπιπίπτοντες Aq., βιαῖοι Sym.). Luther gives the correct meaning, "tyrants:" they were called Nephilim because they fell upon the people and oppressed them.

Hope this helps, it gave me a clearer understanding of this subject.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Kat,

  That really helps.  Thanks for posting. Still researching.

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire

[mari_et_pere]

There's a man named David J. Smith from Waxahatchie, TX. He's a preacher of a church there. He also has a radio prgram on the AM channels. He's talked about the Nephilim once or twice. He contends this:

In those days, God felt He had to destroy ALL LIFE (except obviously for Noah's family and the animals) because everything was so out-of-control evil. He goes on to talk about how "so as it were in those days, so shall the end times be". Not a quote but you get the jist. What's today like? Genetic experiments, cross-breeding of just about anything we can think of to cross-breed, yada yada yada. Basically he contends that it was BECAUSE of the "Nephilim", the cross-breeds between demons and women, for the Great Flood.
Maybe, maybe not, but I'm sure that would have a great deal to do with it. I can't imagine what type of creature would eventually come out of that type of geneaology. Half demon, half man, coupled with another, and another, until down the road, what would we have? Creatures of mythical proportions I suppose. Sounds like fantasy, like science fiction, but then again that's how a lot of non-believers view the Bible, is it not?
Also on the spiritual side: I thought of this just now. Couldn't these Nephilim, presuming that they were cross-bred human/demons, wouldn't that symbolize human nature's way of mixing what we know is the Truth with the evil desires we allow ourselves to succumb to? And then the Flood comes to wipe the evil away, since obviously we can't ride the fence, we can't be half and half, such as a half-breed Nephilim. Just a thought.

M@tt

[YellowStone]

I remember posing this question to Ray some time ago.

Basically (in a nutshell) the "Sons of God" were descendants from Abels bloodline (the one who followed God) as apposed to the descendents of Cain, who had were not following God.

Deu 32:8 -9
vs 8 - When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.
vs 9 - For the Lord's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage

The "Nephilum" were supposedly giants (quoted elsewhere in this thread) and are not to my knowledge tied to the "Sons of God" in any Scripture
outside of Gen 6.

Gen 6:1-4

• vs 1. - And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
• vs 2. - That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
• vs 3. -  And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
• vs 4. - There were giants (Nephilum) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.

It would appear that the giants / Nephilum were in the Earth prior and after the coming of the sons of God to the daughters of men.

I have performed my own research on the "Sons of God" and have to agree with Ray. How could a spirit have sexual relations with a physical woman? I am afraid that this breaks every law of even Earthly Physics.

Can anyone tie the Nephilum to Goliath? I have always wondered about this?

Love to all,
Darren

[mari_et_pere]

Not wanting to argue, but:

I have performed my own research on the "Sons of God" and have to agree with Ray. How could a spirit have sexual relations with a physical woman? I am afraid that this breaks every law of even Earthly Physics.

Who said anything about them being in spirit form? I've never read in the Word that fallen angels can't have a physical form. I'M NO SCHOLAR however, so I digress.

M@tt
[/color]

[gmik]

Doesn't the word angel merely mean messenger??  They couldve been just humans.

gena

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Gena,

  hmmm that's a new angle.  But yeah you are right, angel means messenger. 

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire

[Kat]

I came across this in Ray's emails.


http://bible-truths.com/email12.htm#angels --------------------------------

Hello Sir,

Could you please shed some insights about the fallen angels in Genesis Chp6 1-7. Apparently it goes to say, there was too much wickedness on earth that it grieved God.
I am a bit confused about that. I believe God is ALL KNOWING so why did He got so grieved and decided to wipe these people off the face of the Earth with the exception of Noah.

Your explanation would be greatly appreciated if you have time

God Bless and Stay Blessed

Abed
[Ray Replies]
Dear Abed:

Thank you for your email and questions.

Gen. 6 has absolutely NOTHING to do with "fallen angels." The "sons of God" and the "daughters of men" is not speaking of mortals and spirit beings. This is just another one of Christendom's fables.

Jesus plainly told us that,
"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God., For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage [why? why aren't they given in marriage? Answer....] ...but are AS THE ANGELS of God in heaven" (Matt. 22:30).
The angels CANNOT MARRY (they have no 'marriage apparatus' if you know what I mean). Yet we are told in Gen. 6:2, that "they took them WIVES of all which they chose." To have a "wife" one must be "MARRIED." The sons of God and the daughters of men are BOTH HUMAN.

I believe that verse 4 of Gen. 6 is a terrible translation in the King James. Since most translators have bought into the 'angels fornicating with women' theory, most of them have a very strange translation of this verse. There are whole words in this Hebrew verse that are not even translated at all in most versions.

Notice this translation from the Concordant Version:
"Now the DISTINGUISHED come to be in the earth in those days, and moreover, afterward, coming are those who are sons of God to the daughters of the human, and they bear for them. They are the MASTERS, who are from the eon, MORTALS with the name."
Sorry I don't have time to explain the meaning of all these verses, but at least I want you to know that this is not a case of angels fornicating with women.

God be with you,

Ray
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[rrammfcitktturjsp]

Kat,

  Thanks so much for posting.  I will reply later.

  Sincerely,


  Anne C. McGuire

[UncleBeau]

I was studying on this topic a little while ago and I'm just going to give you a few things to think about. This involves the Book of Enoch compared to scripture. I haven't looked into the validity of the Book of Enoch, so you should find that out for yourself. What I'm going to do is just tell you what it says. I got the text info from   http://reluctant-messenger.com/book_of_enoch.htm




- Chapter 1 in section 1 refers to the same story that you see in Genesis about the Nephilim as a parable.

[Chapter 1]

"...Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:"

-as you can see in Chapter 7, it says there heights are 3,000 ells (45 inches is the largest assumption). THAT'S 11,250 FEET TALL!! Are we believing this to be litteral?

[Chapter 7]

1 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they 3 became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

-Chapter 19 calls them angels, but also refers to this as a VISION!

[Chapter 19]

1 And Uriel said to me: 'Here shall stand the angels who have connected themselves with women, and their spirits assuming many different forms are defiling mankind and shall lead them astray into sacrificing to demons as gods, (here shall they stand,) till the day of the great judgement in 2 which they shall be judged till they are made an end of. And the women also of the angels who 3 went astray shall become sirens.' And I, Enoch, alone saw the vision, the ends of all things: and no man shall see as I have seen.

-Chapter 37 is the first part of Section 2, but it starts out calling it the SECOND VISION. This proves that the entire first section was intended to describe the entire first vision.

[Chapter 37]

1 "The second vision which he saw..."

-Jesus did say that being as angels, we will not marry or be given in marriage (Matt.22:30, Mark12:25), right? So this couldn't be speaking of spiritual beings, correct?

-Jesus said no one has gone into Heaven except Him (John 3:13)


I suggest we as believers should not give in to fairy tales by believing that there was LITTERALLY a race of people who were two miles tall. Who could nurse a baby that size? and how many sheep skins would you have to get a hold of to cover that up? I'm not even going to say how rediculous that would be to have a flood with beings like that who could stand on the tops of mountains.


Just so you all know, I'm just posting some things for us to think about so we can rightly divide the truth and not to be fooled by false teachings.

-Beau

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Beau

Welcome to the Forum and your second post.

I agree with you that there are many false teachings, half truths, deceptions and seductions.

One of the things I discovered when I was researching some of the many varieties of heresy lies and deceits was that they seemingly have no end! I came to the conclusion that I would never know anything or master any of their so called knowledge. It was a bottomless pit. I did not know then and only discovered after being shown the truth through Rays teachings here on BT, that they do have an end and it is only in the LOF! That part the teachers of lies and hypocrisy did not teach! or allow your eyes to see. I saw it only after it was revealed to me through receiving the teachings of the truth here at BT.

The object and aim of false teaching for me is to gauge out your eyes and plug up your ears, sow confusion doubts and diesmay and paralyse your mind. Much like a spider will poison its prey, weave a silk thread to bind it and while telling its prey that it it is a garment of righteousness and that the poison is taking away the pain..... before devouring its prey live.  For me that is reason enough to no longer need to even read any more of such deceptions.  I have learnt to RUN from them!! Perhaps it is only now that I am running my race

Peace to you

Arcturus

[indianabob]

Folks,

I think that we may also consider that experimentation of a scientific nature was going on before the flood. These folks were a lot more intelligent than the average person today.  If we keep in mind that they likely were of ONE language and surely understood breeding techniques for animals and that their ancestors who shared knowledge with them lived for extended periods, then many strange ideas may have crept into their minds. See Genesis 6:9  Noah was one of few who were perfect in his 'generations' or ancestry and others may have been 'not perfect' meaning disobedient to natural law.  (speculation)

It doesn't take long to come up with larger animals if we breed selectively and it wouldn't take long for powerful descendants of Cain to try something similar to what Adolph Hitler did in the 1930's and force women to breed with selected males to develop powerful offspring.

Just my thoughts, Bob

[fe32k]

Angels of God have been manifested as physical beings. Has a demon ever manifested as a physical being? Not sure scripture has ever mentioned anything of the sort.

[mari_et_pere]

Bob,

It amazes me how when people think of ancient people, they picture stupid, hunched back limping bearded folk who really don't know much more than to eat, sleep, have kids and maybe use sticks and mud to make a hut. They were so much more than that. If not, then how would Noah have had the knowledge to produce a giant ship?

This thread is old, but I rememember talking about genetics and cross-breeding in it somewhere. I've heard and read that humans even back then were experimenting with stuff like that. If not experimenting, the cross-breeding obviously did take place. Pretty fascinating. To me anyway.

Matt