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[mari_et_pere]

I was going to insert this into Arcturus' opinion thread, but then realized it doesn't really fit there. Here goes:

I'll use this thread to insert my experience from Sunday. It fits in a way.

My wife had really really wanted me to go to church with her Sunday. Well I had basically said 'maybe' but she expected me to go. When I didn't she was pretty upset.

Well I joined her, my son, my mo-n-law, sis-n-law and bro-n-law for lunch. They began talking about the lack of emotion in their church lately. The praise and worship team apparently has been failing in getting the congregation up and moving, the pastor is a little dull, blah blah blah. My wife mentioned those were some reasons I won't go. We discussed it and we all came to the realization that worship is up to US, not the "praise team" or anything else. A really good discussion in my book.

The rest of the day was a bit tense because my wife felt hurt by me skipping out on church, and at the end of the day I tried to tell her why I didn't go. Well let's just say the evening didn't go as well as either one of us had planned.

I said I've been crossed and torn about church for a very long time. She's known this for a long time. Well it led to us talking about differences I have with the church, and of course she became defensive because she's held on to the common carnal beliefs of the church her whole life so far. But during this "conversation" I realized a few things:

The people in Bablyon don't want to know, think about, or discuss anything that we discuss and believe here.

The people in Babylon who are willing to, are already in the process of realizing something's wrong with the way they believe and are being taught.

Since I was called out ages ago, I'm pretty solid in what I believe. I learned a lot of this long ago, Bible Truths just reinforced it and gave me a home and a vehicle for outlet.

Since I'm solid in the truth, why can't I go back to Bablyon? They won't change my mind, and I'd love to see my kids be brought up around other loving, kind hearted people. They won't learn the whole truth though, and in fact they'll swallow some lies. BUT I don't think they'll learn the truth here at home. My wife and mother in law both are fully entrenched in Babylon and won't even listen to anything I say about it.

So basically I'm thinking about going to church each Sunday so at least my kids will see that I'm involved, so that hopefully through their childhood and teen years they won't turn their backs on God. Like I said, I realize they'll swallow a mouthful of lies, but they'll also learn to trust in God and have a foundation to stand on. Hopefully one day they'll grow to the point to where I can tell them what I believe.

I think I'm justified in doing this. I'm feeling led to do this. I see no other way from where I stand at this point in time. And maybe I can reach a few people like Snacks does in his church.

You all have any thoughts on this?

Matt

[seminole]

Matt, you have always been courteous to me when others were not. I respect you highly for thinking of your wife and kids the way you do. God gave your kids you as their Dad and God knows and I believe you will make the best decisions for their lives. You are strong, man, and I don't think any thing will sway you. Your kids will see you in their lives , concerned for their spiritual well-being and trust in your teaching of them. My hats off to you in speaking in this forum about your considerations. I hope you don't get a rough side for speaking freely. I admire your strength and courage. Good wishes to you as you make your decisions.
Seminole

[skydreamers]

Dear sweet Matt,

It is a beautiful thing to put yourself aside and want to do what's right for your wife and kids.  I think we are all confronted at times with just simply not knowing exactly what that right thing is.  And you will likely get all sorts of opinions one way or another in this thread.

You say:

I think I'm justified in doing this. I'm feeling led to do this. I see no other way from where I stand at this point in time.

I have no doubt that you have given this much thought and prayer.  It looks like this is what God is putting on your heart to do at this point in your life.  And at any rate, you can give it a go, and if God shuts the door on it, then you'll know for sure.  If your spirit simply cannot tolerate being there, then you will know for sure.

It is my opinion that whether or not our children are put through a church system or not, they will still go into and then out of Babylon in some capacity if they are to be one of the chosen.  And this will be all God's doing.  He will work it out.  You cannot thwart any plan He has for your children. 

I do not attend church, and my husband has never been a church goer, having attended only because of me.  So I've often wondered, where does that leave my two little ones?  I also struggled with whether or not I should bring them to church, or at least put them through a Christian school.

But when I look at my own life, I was not raised with God AT ALL.  I grew up with a single mom and the two of us never discussed God.  As I got older I searched out my own stuff....from occult...to new age....to pyshic phenomena...etc etc etc...you name it.  I even took Religious studies in University and learned all about Greek mythology, Judaism, Buddhism etc etc etc....I mean, it seemed never ending...EVERYTHING BUT Christianity!!!!! 

I did not become a Christian until I was 32 and even then it took 8 more years to get to know His real truth.....Do you see what I am getting at?  If God can take you, me and Seminole out of lives that seemingly were completely absent of any knowledge of the truth of the real God to where we are now, he will continue to do miraculous things with anyone He chooses, and whether they grow up in a Church or do not, will not change what He has planned for them ultimately.

So I'm kind of inclined to tell you, not to fret about it so much, but in all things do them joyfully and to the glory of God.

1 Corinthians 10:29-32 MSG
29  But, except for these special cases, I'm not going to walk around on eggshells worrying about what small-minded people might say; I'm going to stride free and easy, knowing what our large-minded Master has already said.

30  If I eat what is served to me, grateful to God for what is on the table, how can I worry about what someone will say? I thanked God for it and he blessed it!

31  So eat your meals heartily, not worrying about what others say about you--you're eating to God's glory, after all, not to please them. As a matter of fact, do everything that way, heartily and freely to God's glory.


May God give you peace and reveal to you His will for your life,
Much luv to ya ,
Diana

[mari_et_pere]

Nole, thanks for your kind words man. I have two reasons why I'm courteous to you. One is because I always try to be courteous to everyone. My christian school taught me how to treat others by treating me the opposite of how they wanted to be treated.
And two, I've been in the postion you are right now, with the city full of gangs and violence and drugs. I was in the thick of it back in 92 and 93. I and my best friend had a friend who moved to California after our 2nd grade year. In 11th grade he came back, and we rekindled our friendship. Well turns out he had gotten into drugs and started up a KKK chapter. Other than the KKK, we had a lot in common. Well when the gangs found out I was his buddy, I became involved wether by choice or not. Everything for me peaked one Saturday night when we were cruising around, and got chased down by a car full of blacks who were screaming and shouting at us. They definitely didn't want to hang out with us! We raced through city streets at 65+ miles per hour, and out into the country side doing 90+. This is going to show you how much of a 180 I've done in my life:

We (the 5 of us in the car) each pulled out a weapon. Ball bats, tire irons, pipes, whatever was in the back of the Escort wagon we were in. We all pulled nylons over our faces and we had a spot in the country where we were basically going to beat these dudes down, maybe worse. WHAT WAS WRONG WITH US? WHAT WAS WRONG WITH ME?   Thank God the dudes chasing us gave up! I think they realized that the white dudes in that car were totally crazy beyond what they were and they just stopped, turned around and were gone.

A couple weeks later me and my best friend were hanging out downtown. We watched as two dudes got the beat down by a gang of blacks and whites. We hot footed it away (we couldn't help those two; a couple dozen gang members against 4 white dudes?) Well we thought we were okay. We found a pay phone in front of the county courthouse and called our friend I just told you about. We told him what happened, and figured he'd get a posse together and help us take care of the gang. But no, he was busy. WHAT? As soon as we got off the phone, the gang was right there behind us. They came running toward us and yelling. We heard "GET HIM, T! GET EM!" We ran. My buddy barely got clocked but was running fast enough that he was able to keep running. He ran straight into busy traffic and got away. As I was running, a dude jumped at me from behind and grabbed at my long hair. I was able to turn and clock him once and continued running. I had a couple dozen dudes chasing me. I also ran straight out into busy traffic, dodging and weaving until I knew I was "safe." Thank God those dudes didn't catch us! It's hard telling what would've happened.  

Where were our "buddies" that night? Why they were getting high. We would've usually been high right with them, but for some reason we weren't that night.

But that's just a couple examples of why I'm a humble pacifist now. That happened 14 long years ago, and I've done a 100% 180 turn from what I was. That's why I treat everyone with respect. I also learned I run faster than black dudes!  

I'm not sure why I told you all that for the whole forum to see, but I empathize with your opinions. (I realize you're not involved with gangs, it's just that environment can affect our everyday lives and our overall outlook.) But I don't think everyone can know where everyone else is coming from all of the time. But your heart is in the right place and you've got my respect. Thank you for seeing strength in me. You may be right about me getting a rough side for speaking freely, but that's their choice, not mine. I'm strong enough to take it.  

Matt

[mari_et_pere]

Diana, thanks for your response. I hear where you're coming from. I've thought, "Well, it's all in God's hands anyway. They'll become what God has willed for them to become." Then I thought, "SO WILL I." <GULP!> So will I. So will you. So will all of us. Interesting to say the least.

Thank you for seeing the best interest that I have inside for my family. It would be so nice if I could sit my family down with Jesus in my living room and ask, "What do you want us to do?" 

Then again, would we always do what He said He wanted? Probably not. 

Thanks again for your kind words. I expected a pretty volatile discussion from this, but it's going pretty peacably so far! 

Matt

[dogcombat]

Wow Matt,

That was SOME story about your life.  You already know that most in Babylon hold on to their favorite idols of the heart.  Sadly, you also know that unless Babylonians are TOLD what to think, they WON'T think at all.  In fact, speaking of mrsnacks, he's recently posted that he's feeling that he should leave the church he's attending, feeling as though God is calling him out.  As for your kids, I think you're worrying about them digesting what I call "a pound of lies" , that consists of 1 oz truth plus 15oz of heresy.  Meaning we can get so desperate for that 1 oz of truth, we'll swallow stuff that isn't good for us.

All I can do is encourage you to go where the Spirit leads.

God be with you
Ches

[mari_et_pere]

Ches, yeah I remember Snack's thread you refer to. I've thought of the 15 oz of lies vs the 1 oz of truth. But you see, they're going to be there eating that pound of lies wether I'm there or not.

I don't know...

Matt

[jackson]

Matt, I feal your pain.

I think we're living parrallel lives!

In fact after reading your last thread concerning this subject I had considered pm'ing you about what you are now posting.

My up most concern is for my girls.  I don't want them confused by the carnal churchs doctrines but at the same time they do enjoy Sunday school (thats all I'll allow); not to mention the fact that their mother insist on their attendence.  The issue with my wife is all together another battle.

But as for the girls I have reluctantly concented on the Sunday school matter.  And this is how I justify it: (I'm sure there are plenty of readers who will be ready, willing and able to admonish me for this so......bring it on) I don't see Babylon just in the world church; its at the mall, at school, on tv and radio, etc, etc, etc; and lets face it you just can't shelter them but so much.  I really don't consider any one of these things any more "evil" than another one.  In fact I believe eliminating one (say the church for example) would just serve to strengthen the others.

So they go to Sunday school and do arts and crafts and play with friends and if some doctrine comes home with them its Ok.  How can I say that you ask?  Because I'm at home; and just like when they come home from school or the mall or sleep overs I'm there waiting with the truth ready to refute any secular or church doctrine that might manifest itself.

God has charged me with the responsibility of those 2 girls and through Him they will be raised up in the truth.  This is not a job for the faint of heart or a man weak in his convictions.  Matt, I can tell that you walk strong in the Lord.  I know He will move you to the right conclusion; and that could very well be different from mine.  Just remember my Brother, God has chosen you as a guardian to some very special people.  But the church is not all you have to guard against.  We cannot afford to underestimate the devil; he has many tools and uses them all with equal fervosity.

Jackson

[ciy]

This is not to be taken as advice or a suggestion to not go back to church.  It is just something that comes to mind as I read this thread.

In the book of Numbers 14th chapter, there is somewhat of a climax to the wilderness experience.  The majority of Israelites wanted to return to Egypt.  God did not say "Ok I tell you what.  Let your children go back to Egypt to learn the ways of Egypt."  What he did was since they wanted to return to Egypt so bad that they wished they had died.  He gave them their wish to die and made them wander around for 40 years in the wilderness so that they could all die off.  In the mean time, their children learned the ways of God and were able to go into the promise land with Joshua and Caleb.

Again not advice just pondering some scripture.
CIY

[gmik]

Wow, what a story Matt.  Gave me chills.  Also shows the Glory of the Father when He redeems someone!!!!

My daughter is still in church and I have thought from time to time (ok, alot) about the grandchildren being in church.  My son gave me a direct order not to ever speak to his kids about "this crap".(He doesn't even have kids!)  So I will just trust the Lord and hopefully over the years read the scriptures to them. As Diana pointed out, God has ways to find us where ever we are.

You said on another thread that your stomach turned when you were in church Mothers Day.  Can you take that week after week? 

As far as my advice goes-I only have grandmotherly advice to you.

Your family is very important to you.  It would show your wife how much you love her & the kids.  You could have fellowship w/ the in-laws.  Maybe, just maybe, a word fitly spoken here and there will open doors to your wife willing to listen.  Who knows?  It may only just be for a season.

My sheep hear my Voice.  You can hear Him.  I will support you no matter.  You have proven to me, that you are a man of God-a mighty man of Valor

Just keep us posted!!!!

Jackson, you are right about Sunday School.  Games, arts & crafts, food, music, and Bible stories.  Very little doctrine.  I liked your point about Babylon being everywhere.

[carol70]

Matt, I have no advice but I wanted to thank you for posting this topic and everyone for the responses.

I have a two year-old son and I've been trying to figure out what to do about him and Sunday school.  He hasn't started it yet but prior to a couple of months ago, it was my intention that he go to Sunday school.  Now, I'm not really sure what to do.  My mom and I had a conversation about it this past weekend.  She's going through her own church issues but she made it very clear that she feels my son needs to be in Sunday school.  I told her it's been on my mind a lot lately but since she and I have very different beliefs, I haven't shared with her my sudden reluctance to send my boy to church.

Anyway, this thread has given me a lot of food for thought.

[mrsnacks]

Well I did tell my wife that I don't feel like going anymore. The few that have been reached with the truths are pulling out of the church. My wife was sad to hear that I won't go. She thinks that there may be just a chance others will be open. So I will think and pray on it. My wife wants me to go with her. So I may bite the bullet and attend because of her. She teaches the kids and she desires the worship. Plus they need help musically so we will see.

[fe32k]

2Co 6:14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Luke 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


Joh 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

As others here say, not advice, but just some scripture to think about.

In Christ,
Roy

[jackson]

Hey Roy, thanks for the scripture!  They fit the situation perfectly.

The first three verses (in 2Cor., Rev. and Luke) are calling for a seperation.  If we cannot distinguish ourselves from the world then we are doomed to live and die in it.

But as you quoted from John this seperation must be a spiritual one.  To physically diassosiate with all of Babylon is impossible as long as we are living here.  Besides, how would we ever know what the truth was if we were never told a lie.  This Babylon, this church, this world is serving a purpose (a good purpose) for those that have "eyes to see and ears to hear".  As long as we are in God and He in us we have nothing to fear and everything to gain.

In His Grace,
Jackson

[skydreamers]

Hi Roy,

Yes, those are of course important scriptures to consider.  But if I may offer my perspective on how I understand them, or how I apply them to my life (and this is of course, only my understanding at present )

As you so rightly point out:

Joh 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Therefore, I can be physically in a room full of unbelievers  and yet be spiritually NOT fellowshipping with them, as I hold fast to what I believe and see as the truth, in my spirit.

In my heart and in my spirit I can come out of Babylon and not partake of her sins, though I may physically be surrounded by Babylon.  (By the way, I agree with others who have said that Babylon is not just present in the church....and I can watch TBN ministers [which I do on a rare occasion for a laugh] with no harm to my spirit, if anything it's a constant confirmation in me that these ministers are "off"....I think as you come out of Babylon, God gives you the gift of discernment where you begin to see the lies like a red light flashing...but this "coming out of Babylon" still is occuring even after you "physically" come out of the church....IMHO)

And so, if I am amongst "unbelievers" and they see that I take a different stand by the questions they ask of me, they will either kick me out of their presence, or they will ask more questions...as the Lord wills.

There are "unbelievers" everywhere!!!!  I know of 9 people (that I recently had the joy of meeting for the first time after two years) in my own HUGE city that believe the way I do.  We are few and far between....a scattered bunch.)

Now, if I were to attend church for the sake of my family (which admittedly I'm not in the position of having to do), yet all the while they become aware of where I stand through every opportunity that comes up to add comments and answer questions, am I not just "becoming as one of them so that I might save one of them"?

1 Corinthians 9:19-23
19  For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.

20  To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.

21  To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

22  To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.

23  I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.


Peace,
Diana

[Kat]

I wanted very much to raise my girls in church, because I was homeschooling, and so I did.  
They did learn the basic Bible stories, but I was reading them Bible stories at home too. I also taught Suday school classes, so I was even with them there some times.
They did have some good friends there too.
I was ignorant to the truth at that time, but it is where God kept me for 25 years    
And that was when I was very seriously about it, during my adult life.  
I am so thankful to be out, and can not imagine a situation where I would have to return to it, even for a visit.  None of my girls attended now, and I did not try to sway them one way are the other.  I always knew they were in church, because I was, that's was one of the reason why I was so committed.
This is my experience, I do not regret it, because I think God taught me a great deal while I was there.  
But now I would say it is not an appropriate place for children to learn about God. Anyone here could do a much better job themselves.  
Like I said this is my experience and personal opinion.  
I realize some of your situations are difficult and you are doing the best you can.  Just pray for God's guidance, and do as your heart guides you  

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[jackson]

Great post Diana, we are of the same mind on this, however you expresed yourself much better than I did.

Kat, I agree with you 100%.  Everything you said was right on.  I do not agree that church is an appropriate place for children to learn about God either.  But wouldn't you agree that even if they don't go to church they are still being bombarded with mans idea of God or atleast mans idea of a god?  They can't escape the ideology no matter where they are.  Thats why we're here; right?

Jackson

[mari_et_pere]

Wow...thanks for all the well thought and un-attacking responses! 

I hear many of you say 'stay away from Babylon' but Jackson is 100% dead on the money when he says that we can't. WE CAN'T. Unless any of you guys stay out of town, grow ALL your own food and make your own clothes and work from home then your kids see way more of Babylon than you think. You drive to the store? What do you pass on the way there? What have they seen on TV? What about at school? Radio? CDs they listen to? Books and magazines they read? What do they see at the stores and malls?

I moved away from the city 7 years ago. We live in the country on a state route. Of course we commute to nearby towns every day, but when I visit a big city, woah.  I grew up in a big city, now I'm not so used to it. We go to a mall, and my gosh kids are bombarded with the wordly things in life there. It's kind of sobering. I think 'how did I grow up to be okay when I was so influenced by stuff?' You won't like the answer, but going to church and a christian school coerced me into leaning toward God a little more than toward the world.

I want my kids to at least lean the way I did. I made many mistakes, went through my falling away period and all that, (I was pretty insane for a couple years, lucky to not be in prison right now) but I came back home to God. I hope they will too, if they ever do fall away. Sunday school is basically fellowship time for kids. They'll learn Jesus Loves Me and John 3:16, paint a picture for me and their mom, make a craft that falls apart on Monday, get a little bag of candy and maybe get a face painting every so often. When they're into their teen years I'll give them more to digest. My oldest is 9 so I have a few years. [GULP!!!] 

My issue with these little kids is this: They're too young to swallow the spiritual knowledge we have. They have plenty of room for milk, but the meat is too much for young ones. Once they hit the fabled "age of accountability" then maybe they can take some meat. And I'd love to see the look on the pastor's face when they ask him questions like "Daddy says you're wrong and here's the scriptures to prove it." 

Anyways, thank you all for the responses! I'd love to hear any more thoughts if you have them.

Matt

[fe32k]

As Jackson says, Babylon is all around us. Ok, thats true. The influence of the Harlot church is everywhere and especially in America.

The air all around us is about 80% Nitrogen. It's everywhere. But if I throw my children in a room that is 98% nitrogen they will suffocate. See what I am saying? Just because it is all around does not mean we should inhale larger amounts. If a little is not good for you, then a lot is just that much worst.

Diana, When the word says worship in TRUTH, I take it to mean that if we do not worship in the truth then the worship is not accepted. The church throws their arms in the air and hold hands and cry all because it makes THEM feel good. This Kingdom is not about what feels good to you or to others. It's about what IS righteous and acceptable unto the Lord. It is about Obedience. You can't be something inwardly and something different outwardly. There is a word for that.

Luke 6:45  A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

We must speak and show what we believe in our hearts. Actions speak louder than words. And let's be real here; if we go to sunday church EVERY sunday then we are fellowshipping with that church. Consider that being yoked!

Matt, As the man I am the head of my household, so... "...as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15 in SPIRIT and TRUTH.
the word speaks clearly on this issue. I am not going to say how to run your household, but scriptures sure do have a lot to say about it. The word of God is not a suggestion on how to live righteously; they are commands.

In Christ,
Roy

[mrsnacks]

2Co 6:14  Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Rev 18:4  And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Luke 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


Joh 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

As others here say, not advice, but just some scripture to think about.

In Christ,
Roy

----------------------------------------------------

I have pondered on those scriptures and I know that His Words are Spirit. I would think God is talking to us on a deep level here. Of course we can take these scriptures and justify us having nothing to do with those in Babylon. Is getting together for dinner or being in a bible study or worship forbidden for one can be believe that is having fellowship . I don't think our Lord is talking to us in that way. Just my thoughts here. I believe He is saying that deep in the spirit fellowship is not possible and I agree. I can be almost totally free and open when talking to my wife or my local friend Greg about things of the Spirit. We talk about the myth of free will , hell, tithing, the origin of Satan , UR, or any of these things . I don't have to tip toe or fear saying what is on my heart. We are one. But I can't do this with the pastor and his wife, or virtually every member in the church I attend. Only a few. I must hold my tongue until the Lord has me speak. His timing and not mine. I don't want to be kicked out and hated before my time.

So I will say that the scriptures I see are for us and reveal me to me. It is more about me than others.
I must make sure my heart is out of Babylon (a process ) and I am not walking in darkness before I point my spiritual finger. Because I have found I am blind in areas and don't see still. Yes I do see a lot thanks to God's grace but we all have our blind spots. I recall being on the freeway the other day. I was turning into the next lane when I realized ( by the horn sound) that I was about to broadside a car beside me. Yes I looked in my rear view mirror and even checked looking out my window but I still didn't see the car. I would have never thought a car was right there. Thank God I didn't get into a wreck. Sometimes we think we see but we don't. We are all in process. I may be further along than John Doe but we all have yet to arrive. A third grader is no better than a 6th grader. And those of us who are in 6 th grade or higher need not look down on those not far along as we are. It is the sum of God's Word we have to look at.We are to be kind to others and love one another. Love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. And if I sit with those in darkness it is not because I am partaking in their ways, beliefs or sins anymore than Jesus did when He sat among those in darkness.