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Author Topic: Back to Babylon?  (Read 27304 times)

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mari_et_pere

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2007, 04:47:42 PM »

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Diana, When the word says worship in TRUTH, I take it to mean that if we do not worship in the truth then the worship is not accepted. The church throws their arms in the air and hold hands and cry all because it makes THEM feel good. This Kingdom is not about what feels good to you or to others. It's about what IS righteous and acceptable unto the Lord. It is about Obedience. You can't be something inwardly and something different outwardly. There is a word for that.

You're right about that. What's the common teaching about false idols? That we worship them by serving them, living with them in heart instead of God, right? That's the common teaching. Worship isn't only singing or dancing around the false idols, but just living for them.

Now then, it's silly to picture anyone dancing around a cd, or an actor, or a belief. We worship all that is put ahead of God in our heart or mind. So then how much sense does it make to dance around in church once a week in order to worship God? None! I'd say the proper way to worship God is to put Him first, ahead of the cds, the movies, the beliefs that make us feel good. In truth and spirit would be an inwardly action first, indeed.

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The air all around us is about 80% Nitrogen. It's everywhere. But if I throw my children in a room that is 98% nitrogen they will suffocate. See what I am saying? Just because it is all around does not mean we should inhale larger amounts. If a little is not good for you, then a lot is just that much worst.

Now on this, I don't quite follow. I think you missed part of my point. My point was that the influence of the mainstream American culture is definitely way worse than what church is going to do to them. In church they'll find friendship, love from kind-hearted people with their legitimate best interest at heart. Some may be more decieved than others, but the deceptions don't create evil people. Outside of church what do our children experience? That was my point. There is far more to fear in our children's lives outside of church than inside of church. Of course this is dependant on the particular church also. But generally speaking what's better? An extremely worldly, decadent, evil, sexually-themed American culture, or good-hearted influence by kind people who love them?

Do the math as I did and see what you come up with.

Matt
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mari_et_pere

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2007, 04:50:39 PM »

Quote
And if I sit with those in darkness it is not because I am partaking in their ways, beliefs or sins anymore than Jesus did when He sat among those in darkness.

Amen Snacks!

Matt
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fe32k

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2007, 05:03:22 PM »

MrSnacks Jesus sat with sinners! It is whole different concept. Those SINNERS might have been taking in His teachings whole heartedly. For a better comparison as yourself this: Did Jesus sit with the Pharisees? I believe they are more comparable to the church today than the "sinners" Jesus sat with.

Matt, My analogy was a response to Jackson to what he said below.
Quote by Jackson:
Quote
But wouldn't you agree that even if they don't go to church they are still being bombarded with mans idea of God or atleast mans idea of a god?  They can't escape the ideology no matter where they are.
That is why I used my analogy of Nitrogen and Oxygen. And as for doing the math; it's as easy as 1+1. Better yet 0+0. Because if I had a choice I would choose neither. By the way, have you noticed how much of that "extremely worldly, decadent, evil, sexually-themed American culture" has infiltrated the church? Maybe it's because I am from NYC, but I can't tell the difference between church going folks and the world.

In Christ,
Roy
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rk12201960

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2007, 05:06:00 PM »

How as a Forum can we help these young ones?
Come on we have so very smart brothers and sisters here. How can we help?

I'm watching my brothers walk right into a lions den.

I understand where you are coming from Matt and I'm not judging you at all brother I'm just praying we as a family can help some how.

On line playground? I don't know but its a start.

Calling all brothers and sisters.

Randy
« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 05:51:40 PM by Randy »
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skydreamers

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2007, 07:05:14 PM »

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Diana, When the word says worship in TRUTH, I take it to mean that if we do not worship in the truth then the worship is not accepted. The church throws their arms in the air and hold hands and cry all because it makes THEM feel good. This Kingdom is not about what feels good to you or to others. It's about what IS righteous and acceptable unto the Lord. It is about Obedience. You can't be something inwardly and something different outwardly.

Hi Roy, fair enough.  I think I do understand where you are coming from.  I guess I am coming from a different sort of history.  I only went to church for about 3 years out of my 10 year Christian walk, and not all at the same time.  I was never a faithful attendee, nor did I involve myself with church activities outside listening to the sermon.  I have maybe gone to a handful of bible studies.  I have always been of the rebellious non-conformist type nature, and so when people raised hands, cried out, sang, danced around etc  etc I have never felt compelled to do the same.  I have never quite fit in, but thankfully I have never felt that I HAD to fit in.  I was okay being the quirky quiet me that I was.  So I agree with you, worship is not about what feels good, or really to take it further, it has nothing to do with anything physical.  For instance, I can pray in my spirit quietly, I don't have to get down physically on my knees and say literal words out of my mouth.  So if people are worshiping with the flesh all around me, what does that have to do with me?  I'm not conforming to their ways just to please them.

Having said that, if somebody feels within that this is a problem for them, that is, feeling compelled to fit in and therefore go along with the crowd, than certainly it could be dangerous, and at the very least disheartening, to be in the crowd (whatever crowd that may be, church or otherwise).  I wouldn't recommend it to someone if I thought they were fragile in that way.  I don't see Matt as being that way, however, but only he knows that for sure.

So in all fairness, I completely respect your viewpoint, even though I may not agree with it in applying it to myself. 

So maybe this has been dangerous ground to walk on, for me to give my perspective, when to be honest I don't really know for sure what is the right or wrong answer for Matt.  I just know what I think I would do in similar situations.  And that's just a reflection of where I am at.  For me, I can't imagine a couple of hours amongst lies is any comparison to the countless hours I spend everyday seeking out truth in the Word.  If Matt's wife and children are going to be going  anyway, and Matt is there, it may give him opportunity to point out scripturally what lies are being taught in the sermon of the day.  If he can find a way to do that, then I think it is worth it, and may be just the way God uses him to open his wife's eyes.   

It looks like this thread has shown we all differ slightly, so poor Matt, it looks like you're on your own after all in having to figure it out.

My prayers are with you brother, that God show you HIS will in the matter.  You're in a tough spot.

Peace to all,
Diana


 
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fe32k

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2007, 08:32:08 PM »

I am sure Matt just wanted our opinions and that's what he got. Our opinions are in no way authoritative, but Matt you are definitely not on your own. Seek the scriptures and ask God for guidance. Don't be troubled because now we know that God is in control of EVERYTHING. That can be a scary notion for it can be a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, but it is also comforting for we know the end result. Diane and I may not see eye to eye, but I am sure that she will keep you in her prayers as will I.

Diane, I only went to church for two years in which I became a youth minister and was "prophesied" to become a great pastor by a well known Hispanic preacher. After 5 mins of just discussing (not preaching) another perspective of this so called rapture, I was shunned as a heretic and was said to be deceived and carrying a devil. Looking back, I know how harmful this environment can be. I would not recommend anyone to regularly attend church just as I wouldn't recommend anyone to walk into a snake pit. I consider them both dangerous. The church can be an emotionally draining place, I personally was not able to stand my last visit and left before the sermon was over. It just hurts to be there. This is the perspective I bring to this discussion on going back to church.

God be with you,
Roy
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seminole

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2007, 09:11:48 PM »

Man Matt, your story sounds real familiar. There has always been trouble aroung here as far back as I know of and it has gotten worse. I did the drug thing and drinking. My goal in life was to move to Colorado, grow my own, brew the lightning and party all the time. Didn't work out that way though. You are right. What the kids get just in the world is more dangerous than anything I know of in churches. You got to do what you think right. Somebody mentioned people in church raising their hands and singing but how is any body to know that it is not genuine from the heart. Not everybody puts on a show just to be putting on a show. Not much different that I can see than people living in a well to do subdivision just to portray their success. You know keeping up with the Joneses. Maybe they don't like the subdivision but they go just to keep up appearances. It happens everywhere in most aspects of life not just church. Matt, you got a good heart and have come so far. You will do the right thing for your family.
Nole
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skydreamers

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2007, 09:14:05 PM »

Hi Roy, thanks for sharing that!  I do see more clearly where you are coming from. 

I hope I am not coming across as argumentative with you, since I'm sure you and I agree wholeheartedly on many other things!! :)  I think you are giving wise counsel, especially given your experience. 

Also I probably should clarify about what I meant by Matt having to figure it out alone.  What I meant, and what I should have said is Matt, you are likely not going to get an unanimous answer on this one (from the forum), and so yes indeed, it will likely be a decision made between you and God and where you sense he is leading you.

Quote
I am sure Matt just wanted our opinions and that's what he got. Our opinions are in no way authoritative, but Matt you are definitely not on your own. Seek the scriptures and ask God for guidance. Don't be troubled because now we know that God is in control of EVERYTHING.

I am definitely in full agreement with Roy on that one... !!;) :D

Peace to all,
Diana
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DuluthGA

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2007, 02:49:05 AM »

Hi Matt,  I agree with Jackson primarily.  It's all spiritual.

There are many many more Scriptures on "coming out of the world" than there are of "coming out of Babylon."  Do we really think we can come out of the physical world?  Such as, stop watching this, participating in that, rubbing shoulders with them?

Here are a just a few of many (more) such verses, with only the important words unfurled:

John 12: 25     ... he who is hating his life in this world... [CLNT]

Rom 12: 2     ... do not follow the customs of the present age, ... [Weymouth N.T.]

James 4: 4     ... a friend of the world is constituted an enemy of God.  [CLNT]

John 7: 7     [Jesus speaking] "The world ... it's acts are wicked."  [CLNT]

Gal 1: 4     ... that he might deliver us out of the present evil age ... [Young's Literal Translation]

John 15: 19     " ... I have chosen you out of the world ..."

John 17: 14     " ... they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."

Gal 4: 3     ... we, when were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world.

James 1: 27     ... be keeping oneself unspotted from the world.

1John 2: 15     Do not love the world, nor the things of the world.

John 17: 6     [Jesus speaking] " ... whom You have given Me out of the world ... [NKJV]

Phil 3: 18-19     ... enemies of the cross of Christ ... who mind earthly things.

2Pet 2: 20     ... they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord...

John 14: 17     the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive...

So dear brother, I list these to show you, can someone come all the way out of dreaded Babylon then come all the way out of the world as is commanded?  We all answer this in our own way with our connection with God's spirit on a daily basis.  But I assure you as a friend, there is no one in a physical corner all by his or herself, sitting there nearly perfect.  I truly believe we all fulfill God's will at each moment.

Thanks to great thoughts from Diana!  :>

With joy, Janice




« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 03:09:57 AM by DuluthGA »
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mari_et_pere

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2007, 02:41:32 PM »

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Did Jesus sit with the Pharisees? I believe they are more comparable to the church today than the "sinners" Jesus sat with.

Wow hang on. I'm not trying to argue here, not at all. I'm actually famous among those who know me for avoiding confrontation. But to take church members, all of them, all how many? Millions? And say they are more like Pharisees than sinners Jesus sat with is...well judgemental at best. Do you not have friends who attend church? Do you think of them as Pharisees? Do ya talk down to them with scathing sarcasm as Jesus did to the Pharisees for their hypocritical speech and actions? Or are they good hearted Joe's and Jane's who happen to be in the decieved majority of Christendom according to God's will, and will remain that way until God calls them to more truth, IF He does, again according to His will?

Matt
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mari_et_pere

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2007, 02:50:10 PM »

Quote
On line playground?

Randy LOL!  ;D ;D

If it were only that easy I'd have it made.  :)

Matt
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mari_et_pere

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2007, 03:17:33 PM »

I think most of you sense the spirit I'm coming from here. Not a spirit of conformity, but a spirit of LOVE. Not judgement (who am I to judge when I've done dastardly things far beyond what most dream of) but acceptance. Not acceptance of false doctrine, but an acceptance of people who have so far been led BY GOD to believe such false doctrine.

Sunday me and my wife and my little boy went to a cook out. It was at a church goers house. We forgot the crucifixes and silver bullets at home, but alas all was well. there were 10 or 12 couples there with their kids. We had some good conversation, good food, good fun with the kids, some laughs, and generally had a really good time. Although I haven't gotten into the deep subjects of TRUTH with most of these people, I can pretty much guarantee they don't believe like I do. But one thing was evident and always has been since I met them all: all of us are kind-hearted people on a journey, seeking to grow in the spiritual and learn God's truths. I say they're not as in tune as I, they may say the same about me. They accepted me. Would you accept them?

Just a thought, like a WWJD type thought.

Matt
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seminole

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2007, 09:24:00 PM »

You bet I would accept them. How can you do otherwise?
Nole
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fe32k

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2007, 11:30:52 PM »

Hmmm.... seems I am not coming accross very well on this subject. Thanks for hearing me out though, I speak from experience. My points had NOTHING to do with acceptance. Church/Mass/sunday school/etc are NOT social events such as a BBQ or a get together or a movie night. It is a time for learning and absorbing the teachings and to share these teachings with each other and to worship the god that created those teachings. Acceptance was not the subject of this thread.

Matt, most of the people who send hate email to Ray are those "good hearted" christians you speak about.

Jeremiah 17:9  "The heart is deceitful above all things..."

Those "good hearted" christians are the same the teach these heretical "evil hearted" doctrines. They are decieved, I agree, but these doctrines are fruits of the evil in ones heart.

Last time I went to church, the pastor made a joke about how the Catholics are going to be surprised when they end up in hell! Everyone laughed and thanked God for the truth. Please don't tell me these people are not like the pharisees!! The pharisees weren't blatantly evil, they were people just like the church goers you speak about, people that you would accept.

Mat 23:27  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:28  Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.



But again this is not about acceptance. As I said, ultimately God knows what you should do and pray for an answer. As for me, I have no desire to return and not my wife nor my child will be a cause for that.

God be with you,
Roy

p.s. You should read more or Ray's emails responding to these "good hearted" people.

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skydreamers

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2007, 11:49:58 PM »

hmmmm Roy....I think I might be starting  to see it your way....did I say that outloud? ;D

Peace,
Diana
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indianabob

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2007, 12:21:11 AM »

Very interesting and detailed comments from one and all.

I suppose most of us have had similar experiences and concerns.

One advantage that we on the forum have is the SURE knowledge that God has a place for our spouses and our children and even our friends who don't attend any church.  So I ask, when we consider whether we should go along with the family in order to keep peace or to protect them from error, are we acting out of fear or something close to fear? 

We really don't need to have any concern in this area.  "Take no concern for the morrow"  We can try what seems good to us today and reserve the right to change when we see that it isn't working as expected.  Wouldn't we do the same for anyone else?

After all, the worst that can happen is that our loved ones will be judged and purified by a loving Father and Son when the time is best for them.  And if we let God set the time table, neither we nor they will suffer from frustration, arguments and a feeling of helplessness in the home.

We should love others equal to ourselves and even though blood draws us closer than a valued friendship, we do need to realize that God has things under control.

As one person has alread said, you children are going to be exposed to all type of error at school and in the street, just make sure that what they see and hear at home is truth as much as it is in your power to provide.  Even little children are a times very perceptive.  Even little children in their personal conversations with their peers, eventually realize the difference between truth and myth.  Our goal as parents should be to have them discover, as they become older, that Dad and Mom always told them the best truth that God gave them to know and that Dad and Mom were able to accept correction with humility and dignity.  As much as you try, you cannot be perfect in everything and the only solution therefore is to repent (change, correct your path) every day as the truth becomes evident to you.

Our friends and family who are not called at this time, do not have the same options that we enjoy.  So, we need to be very forgiving and patient with them as if we were Christ to them.

Just my views,  Bob
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Bradigans

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2007, 01:17:11 AM »

Ches, yeah I remember Snack's thread you refer to. I've thought of the 15 oz of lies vs the 1 oz of truth. But you see, they're going to be there eating that pound of lies wether I'm there or not.

I don't know...

Matt

1 Corinthians 15:33 - Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. Could Satan being luring you? I'm often tempted myself. But there's nothing there.Matthew 10:37-38 says - He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

I believe as a man, you've got to stand for THE WORD. In a christian marriage Ephesians 5:23 says - For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 1 Corinthians 14:33 - For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 
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gmik

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2007, 01:31:16 AM »

Hi Bradigans.  Good to see ya posting!!!
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fe32k

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2007, 01:33:02 AM »

Thanks Brad, those are my feelings exactly. I thought I was alone for a sec.

Diane not easy to admit that, but like Ray I try to back everything I say with scripture. If I feel strongly about something emotions might sneek in sometimes. I hope everyone here realizes that I speak out of concern and love.

God be with you,
Roy
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Bradigans

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Re: Back to Babylon?
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2007, 01:59:44 AM »

How's it going Gena?


And Roy, Galatians 5:9 says - A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.1 Corinthians 5:7-8 says - Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. I hope i'm using these scriptures in context.

Anyway, why would someone want to go back to a lie? All I can say is, Satan is cunning.   
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