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[mari_et_pere]

Hey Roy, sorry if my response was way off. I've been pretty tired from working to much! 

I know where you're coming from. When I started this thread, I figured nobody would say much of anything that I haven't already thought a bazillion times, and I was right. I'd say we're all pretty much of one mind here, which is awesome. At the same time, I feel God doing a majorly strange work inside of me. When I get a grasp on it I'll be relieved just to not be in transition, whatever it is. 

Bradigans, you quoted Ephesians 5:23. Funny. The other night that I spoke of and me and my wife had words about this stuff, she told me that I'm supposed to be the head, and said someday I'll have to step up to the plate and do it. I was close to responding in anger, but I squelched it. I said, "Maybe I already have been. You just don't know it yet!" I guess she's SO into church that she thinks I'm slacking as spiritual head of the family by not going.

Thanks for listening guys, not matter what happens.

Matt

[ciy]

Roy
I agree with you.  It is amazing how God does have everyone at different levels of the milk doctrines.

When they told Jesus, "Your family (mother, brothers) are outside wanting to see you."  He said "No that is not my family. You who have ears to hear and eyes to see are my family (mother, brother)"
 
Like his disciples said in John chapter 6 "This is a hard teaching."
 
Ray has a great talk that being saved is the hardest thing anyone will ever do in this age.
God's plan is perfect.
CIY

[TimothyVI]

I disagree with much of what is taught in the orthadox church today.
But God uses the church as the schoolmaster, to bring people to
the knowledge of Christ. Even though it  is God who drags people to Christ, I don't personally know anyone that has come to Christ
without the help and encouragement of the church .

Most of the people that I know from the church that I attend are very good people.
Unfortunately, most of them have not a clue, as Ray might say.
I seldom try to change their thinking but I pass along some of Ray's teaching as the time seems right.
But they are nevertheless believers in Christ, and work to spread that knowledge.

So I believe that God has a very specific and important purpose for the church as we know it today.
I don't think that God is unhappy with the church.

You may find that your children and wife may be more apt to listen to your differing opinions if you actually attend church
with them, than if you did not.

Just my humble opinion on the issue.

Good luck and may God bless you and your family.

Tim

[fe32k]

So I believe that God has a very specific and important purpose for the church as we know it today.
I don't think that God is unhappy with the church.

You may find that your children and wife may be more apt to listen to your differing opinions if you actually attend church
with them, than if you did not.

Hey Timothy,
    God had "a very specific and important purpose" for Hitler, so what is your point? I don't imagine people volunteering to enter a concentration camp.

     They [the church] will be more apt to try and absorb him into their system no matter how much he resists. This will bring more issues than solutions. My family and friends have "accepted" my position on scripture even if they don't believe it. After a while, Matt's family will be better off adhering to what they believe and they will start to respect each others opinions rather than try to make each other feel better with counterfeit acts of gratification.

God be with you,
Roy

p.s. Matt, would your wife Join this forum for your sake?

[SeeksAllTruth]

Brother Matt,

I have only recently been called out of babylon and still consider myself a 'babe'.  I share the same challenges as you.  My wife takes the girls to the harlot every Sunday.  My wife often asks if I would consider going with them mainly I think to passify.  I am realting to your dilema.  I often think perhaps I should go with them for the sake of reaching out and sharing the true gospel.  But for me, I'm not willing to budge.  Maybe I'm too 'black & white'.  My yes are yes and my no's are no's.  I know you to be a great man of God and for God.  Please seek the Lord and His will in this decision you are having to face.  If you are like me, you get 'lonely' socially.  Maybe you don't, I know I do.  I haven't found anyone that seems at all interested in seeking truth in my circle of friends at work or around home. Perhaps the price I'm paying ?  I will pray that you follow the Lords will for your life in this for this time.  I trust you are seeking Him for the answer.  You have gotten such a loving response from the others posting here.  All have great reply's to you. 

In The Love Of Jesus,
Bruce

[Bradigans]

Hey Roy, sorry if my response was way off. I've been pretty tired from working to much! 

I know where you're coming from. When I started this thread, I figured nobody would say much of anything that I haven't already thought a bazillion times, and I was right. I'd say we're all pretty much of one mind here, which is awesome. At the same time, I feel God doing a majorly strange work inside of me. When I get a grasp on it I'll be relieved just to not be in transition, whatever it is. 

Bradigans, you quoted Ephesians 5:23. Funny. The other night that I spoke of and me and my wife had words about this stuff, she told me that I'm supposed to be the head, and said someday I'll have to step up to the plate and do it. I was close to responding in anger, but I squelched it. I said, "Maybe I already have been. You just don't know it yet!" I guess she's SO into church that she thinks I'm slacking as spiritual head of the family by not going.

Thanks for listening guys, not matter what happens.

Matt

It's all spiritual anyway, according to St John 6:63, including what was said in Ephesians 5:23. Jesus said in Matthew 20:25-28 - But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

A lot of us professing christian men believe that headship begins with authority. No, headship through THE SPIRIT begins with humility. True authority is found in humility (James 4:6). I believe we as christian men learn through THE WORD to lead by and through humility which gives true authority. Wasn't Christ an example of it when HE washed the disciples feet, and then went on to die on a rugged cross? The right woman I believe will respond to true authority found in true humility.   

[TimothyVI]

So I believe that God has a very specific and important purpose for the church as we know it today.
I don't think that God is unhappy with the church.

You may find that your children and wife may be more apt to listen to your differing opinions if you actually attend church
with them, than if you did not.

Hey Timothy,
    God had "a very specific and important purpose" for Hitler, so what is your point? I don't imagine people volunteering to enter a concentration camp.

     They [the church] will be more apt to try and absorb him into their system no matter how much he resists. This will bring more issues than solutions. My family and friends have "accepted" my position on scripture even if they don't believe it. After a while, Matt's family will be better off adhering to what they believe and they will start to respect each others opinions rather than try to make each other feel better with counterfeit acts of gratification.

God be with you,
Roy

p.s. Matt, would your wife Join this forum for your sake?

Hi Roy,

Comparing the church to Hitler's concentration camp is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

I only know that by attending church with my wife, and discussing the sermons afterward with her,
pointing out fallacies in the sermon, she has come to believe as I do without me having to
try to change her.

I did not recommend that Matt go to church. I just pointed out that his wife may be more
apt to listen to his view if he did. And the simple fact is that God uses the church to bring
people to the knowledge of Christ. The gospel that the church teaches may be wrong, but it is
nevertheless doing some of the work of God.

Tim

[mari_et_pere]

A lot of us professing christian men believe that headship begins with authority. No, headship through THE SPIRIT begins with humility. True authority is found in humility (James 4:6). I believe we as christian men learn through THE WORD to lead by and through humility which gives true authority. Wasn't Christ an example of it when HE washed the disciples feet, and then went on to die on a rugged cross? The right woman I believe will respond to true authority found in true humility.

Brad, well said. I'm approaching this whole thing with upmost humility because that's how I am. If anyone thinks I'm not swallowing some humble pie by even contemplating going to church, you're nuts. I am very un-authoritative to my wife. This isn't Iraq. Our women don't need their men to command them, force them, coerce them or threaten them. Am I right?

Comparing the church to Hitler's concentration camp is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

I only know that by attending church with my wife, and discussing the sermons afterward with her,
pointing out fallacies in the sermon, she has come to believe as I do without me having to
try to change her.

I did not recommend that Matt go to church. I just pointed out that his wife may be more
apt to listen to his view if he did. And the simple fact is that God uses the church to bring
people to the knowledge of Christ. The gospel that the church teaches may be wrong, but it is
nevertheless doing some of the work of God.

Tim, you sound very wise with that response. Concentration camp? I'm not going to church for a number and a job, that's for sure.

They [the church] will be more apt to try and absorb him into their system no matter how much he resists. This will bring more issues than solutions. My family and friends have "accepted" my position on scripture even if they don't believe it. After a while, Matt's family will be better off adhering to what they believe and they will start to respect each others opinions rather than try to make each other feel better with counterfeit acts of gratification.

Roy, you got me WAY wrong bro. I don't do any counterfeit anything. And they can try all they want to "absorb" me into their "system" but I'm rock, not water. We do adhere to what we believe, I'm solid in my faith and for the time my wife's faith in what she believes is also solid.

You do realize that no matter what you, I, or anyone else says, and no matter what I end up doing about this, the end result is what God already knows will happen, right? He's got this thing in His all-knowing hand right now, and I know He won't let me down. I'm solid.

Matt

[Redbird]

Hi Matt,

After coming out of the Catholic Church in my teens because as I said before, never bought into their doctrines which contradicted Christ's teachings, I was on my own for a long time with the Lord.  In 2001, after being called and not really knowing exactly what was going on.....I felt very very alone.  I started to attend a small Methodist church.  Talked to the pastor there, wondering if I should be baptised again...He said hopefully that is something God will take care of!  He knew, although I had never heard of this before.  God brought me to my knees with much fear and trembling in true repentence in that tiny little church.  I put my sons in the kid's club only, because I felt the sermons were too heavy for them.  The director of the children flat out told me if my sons did not attend church, they would go to hell.  That was my invitation to leave for good, and I gladly accepted!!  I do believe that church served its purpose at that time in my life.  But, I will not go backwards....not for anyone, because I am a servant of the Lord and the Lord alone.

Peace to you my friend,
Lisa

[fe32k]

some still have a soft spot for what they left behind and understandibly so. I love the people that attend the church I went to. I hate their evil doctrines. And as for humility, Christ is our example of this, but when it comes to the word of God and truth this is what is said of Jesus:

Mat 7:29  For he taught them as one having authority

Ray gets knocked for his authoratative tone all the time. So did Jesus. I have at times as well. Because I KNOW this is truth, it's not a gut feeling anymore. In my home I speak with authority because as long as I am concerned the truth will be taught and learned in my household. I will not force anything on anyone (this not Iraq as someone said), but I will speak my mind mind in my own household.

Tim, I will not apologize for my analogies. God has a GOOD purpose for absolutely everything. Yes, the church is being used to bring about God's elect and to bring people to the knowledge of the truth, but everything that happens (good or evil) is to bring us to the knowledge of the truth. Everything God does has a purpose. Whether it be the church, the holocaust, winning the lottery, last weeks black out, typing this message, etc... This experience of evil is part of our creation process. As I said you guys seem to have a soft spot for what you left behind but remember what names are used to described this organism:

Rev 17:1  "...Great whore..."
Rev 16:19 "...great Babylon..."
Rev 17:5 "...THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS..."
Rev 17:5 "...ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."
Matthew 7:23 "...ye that work iniquity"


I thought I had made myself clear on why I have such strong feelings on this issue. But once again it seems that not many can clearly see my point. I will not be tolerant of such evil, I will not act like all is peachy and rosie with these people and I will not act as if it is ok to be "unequally yoked together with" them. I mean it says "abominations of the Earth", all the evil acts of any human, any natural disaster, any evil idea that you can think put together and increased exponentially has not created more damage than these evil doctrines taught by the church for the past 1900 years or so. Again this is an individual decision and only prayer can really tell you what is God's take on this, but I will not sit back while a brother of mine contemplates entering the devil's lair (the synagogue of Satan) with out me at least voicing my opinion clearly. So please do not tell me that comparing the church's doctrines to the holocaust is a stretch, it actually not even the tip of the iceberg

Psalm 97:10  "Ye that love the LORD, HATE evil..."

God be with you,
Roy

[indianabob]

Folks,

I think it may be helpful to consider that the holocaust may not have occurred or been as bad if the 'church' had stood up for what is right.  Most institutional churches did nothing.  Many individual congregations or their members sacrificed to protect Jews and Polish and others who were persecuted, but the main church retained their neutrality and their wealth and are accountable.

Bob

[mari_et_pere]

Bob, you're right about that! I think churches should be way more involved in things. Then again, I suppose God had reason to hold them back from getting involved. I watched a series of documentaries a couple weeks ago about Nazi era Germany, mainly the rise and fall of the Hitler regime. I wonder how many people actually know what all the holocaust entailed, how it started and how it progessed, if progressed is a proper term here. It's amazing how blind the world seemed to be. Hitlers Storm Troopers would travel from town to town, village to village, single out Jews, and harrass them, beat them, kidnap them, kill them, whatever they wanted. Mostly it was killing. The Storm Troopers believed they were on a "sacred mission". How decieved could they be!

The townsfolk who witnessed these things, they did nothing. NOTHING! How could one do nothing? Governments did NOTHING. Nobody did a thing! The video footage turns your stomach if your half of a decent man, and yet NOTHING was done about it for how long? It's disgusting.

Roy, now that I just said all that, I think the analogy is disgusting, comparing a church to the holocaust. Shall we compare pastors to Hitler? A wee bit over dramatic I believe.

Matt

[hillsbororiver]

How many of us would remain in a group that continually maligned the charactor, wisdom and competence of our spouse or parents? Who would quietly sit there amid all the AMENS! 

How about when they would malign the charactor of our Loving Lord?

The churches are teaching and worshipping "another Jesus" not the One who we are blessed to be getting to know more of day by day. I cannot bear to hear how He will fail to save His creation and even to continually torture them forever because they did not make an alter call or say a 30 second prayer. It is a horrible thing to contemplate our loving God being so depraved.

Once we are called to Him, once He reveals His plan and purpose to us and how we should be constantly striving for His Spirit to displace our carnal mind to become one with His Mind why would we look back?

Luk 17:32  Remember Lot's wife.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[fe32k]

The holocaust is fresh in our minds... The inquistion could have equalled or surpassed in its grossness.

but once again I am misunderstood... let me quote Tim:

So I believe that God has a very specific and important purpose for the church as we know it today.
I don't think that God is unhappy with the church.

I differed with this statement that God is not "unhappy" with the church.

Rev 16:19  And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

I also believe that everything has a very specific and important purpose. Everything God does is specific and important, not JUST the church. I used the Holocaust as an example to show an extreme example. I was then accused of comparing them when it was not what I was doing. The church is an organization, the holocaust is a chain of events (horrific ones at that).  But yet I would still be inclinded to say that the evils involved are comparable if not surpassed by the evil doctrines of the church. I am sorry if I am offedning any ethnic Jews, but I do not hold back what I feel. It has gotten me in trouble in the past. It will probably get me in trouble in this forum. Although, my intentions are sincere.

Let us remember who we battle with.

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Surely humans have commited some very horrific and grossly acts of evil. But The synagogue of Satan sits in the church. It is evil. period. This'll be my last post on this thread. My opinion is clear and I don't need to add to it or defend it because I have given enough scripture to show that the church people are comparable to Pharisees, that thier doctrines and their organization are "abominations of the Earth", That their evil doctrines are the fruits of the evil in their hearts, and that we are to HATE evil if we love the Lord. Now I believe these things.

I used to be of the synagogue of satan. I condemed my whole family to an eternity in hell for not believing in Christ and I regret it with all of my heart, that was the greatest EVIL i ever commited in my life. Now if there is something worst than that than you show me! and I will stop my "gross" comparisons.

God be with you,
Roy

[ciy]

I think the question to ask ourselves is are we the called, chosen, and if we are will we be faithful to the end.  Paul says he presses on toward that mark set before him.  He forgets his past in religion saying that it is dung.  The Israelites that wanted to return to bondage saying that it really was not as bad as we thought it was, died in the desert.  God did not say that it is alright to return to Egypt if you want to so that you can lead a more comfortable life.  Read Numbers chapter 14.

When man listens to his wife or the world to do it the physical way, you get death like Adam did in satisfying Eve.  You get an Ishmael that multiplies and deceives many or you end up cutting the head off of John.  Jesus said there were "many that believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him (do his commandments in public) less they be put our of the synagogue. For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."  

God does not call you to be comfortable in this world system.  To settle down with the world.  You must overcome this world.  Jesus said "Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men."

Read Jeremiah chapter 8 and Hosea chapter 4.  They are great at showing how serious God is about what doctrines you continue in.  God is a jealous God.  He loves you and does not want you worshipping the doctrines of demons in houses made with man's hands where the idols of Baal reside.  Saying that God will punish people in hell for eternity is not just a minor issue with God it warps the view of God.  

Be very careful less you fall.  Do not be so confident that you can stay in the world.  Love the things of the world, and not be part of the world.  If you love anything of this world the love of God is not in you.  Judas was called and chosen.  He was not faithful to the end.  Going back into Bablyon is not being faithful to the end.

Now in saying all of this, do whatever your heart tells you to do because it is all of God.  

This is all in love.  I pray that we all have and keep ears to hear and eyes to see so that we do the things God tells us to do.  
Be strong and courageous.
CIY

[fe32k]

Saying that God will punish people in hell for eternity is not just a minor issue with God it warps the view of God. 

I know I said I won't post on this thread again (sorry) but I must say, CIY that was a great way of putting it. Non-contraversial (unlike me) and scripturally sound. Great answer.

Roy

[TimothyVI]

Every one of us who has spiritually left the church had a reason to do so.
Before condemning the institution, ask yourself honestly if you would be
where you are in your walk with Jesus if it had not been, in some way, for the church.
If you have to honestly answer no, then the church is still doing good things for our Lord.

Once you have come to the knowledge of our Saviour, and can continue to grow in that knowledge
and personal relationship with Him, then it is understandable, and acceptable to " to want to come out of her".

Dear fe32k, you appear to have been personally hurt by the church organization.
I pray that God will ease your pain and bitterness. It is obvious that you are passionate
for the Lord Jesus.

Tim

[Craig]

A new email from Ray, should help out a bunch.

Craig


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4814.0.html

[Craig]

A new email from Ray may help with this discussion.

Craig

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4814.0.html

[ciy]

Good timing Craig
CIY