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Punishment/OT vs. Endless torment NT?

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hillsbororiver:
Ray has brought this up in some articles and it really struck me when I first contemplated what he wrote. In the OT the very worst punishment was death, but of course we know conventional "christian wisdom" holds that now the punishment is a one size fits all type and unless you call on Him you are doomed to experience this torture for eternity.

I was reading Exodus 21 earlier and it hit me once again, here the punishment fits the crime, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, not an eye for a tooth or a torturous stoning to within an inch of ones life, then a time to revive the criminal to consciousness, maybe a bit of food and water, some rest and back to stoning until they pass out from the pain repeating this process for days, weeks, months, years. Nowhere in the OT can we find this type of punishment prescribed or such a sentence carried out by the command of God's Law.

As a matter of fact the word "torture" does not appear in the OT or NT (King James) when doing a word search on E-Sword.

Before anyone writes of some of the judgments against those who opposed Israel that is a whole different topic, the point of this post is to underline the fact that death was the ultimate punishment under the Old Covenant, and that the punishment fit the crime.

 Exodus 21

 1Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.

 2If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

 3If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.

 4If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself.

 5And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:

 6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

 7And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

 8If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

 9And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.

 10If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

 11And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.

 12He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

 13And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

 14But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.

 15And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

 16And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

 17And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

 18And if men strive together, and one smite another with a stone, or with his fist, and he die not, but keepeth his bed:

 19If he rise again, and walk abroad upon his staff, then shall he that smote him be quit: only he shall pay for the loss of his time, and shall cause him to be thoroughly healed.

 20And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

 21Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

 22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

 23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,

 24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

 25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

 26And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.

 27And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

 28If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.

 29But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

 30If there be laid on him a sum of money, then he shall give for the ransom of his life whatsoever is laid upon him.

 31Whether he have gored a son, or have gored a daughter, according to this judgment shall it be done unto him.

 32If the ox shall push a manservant or a maidservant; he shall give unto their master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.

 33And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an a@@ fall therein;

 34The owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money unto the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his.

 35And if one man's ox hurt another's, that he die; then they shall sell the live ox, and divide the money of it; and the dead ox also they shall divide.

 36Or if it be known that the ox hath used to push in time past, and his owner hath not kept him in; he shall surely pay ox for ox; and the dead shall be his own.

I know some may be aghast at the above list and have an issue or two with the "unfairness" inherent in the Old Covenant, remember this has many spiritual applications and even more importantly we have a new and better promise made possible by our Lord;

Jer 31:31  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:6  But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 8:8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
 
Heb 12:24  And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

mari_et_pere:
Thank God for the New Covenant because I'd have been put to death many times over.  ;D

Sorry, couldn't help but think that. Not meaning to make light of your post Joe.

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Thank God for that.

Matt

hillsbororiver:

--- Quote from: mari_et_pere on June 26, 2007, 01:34:38 PM ---
Thank God for the New Covenant because I'd have been put to death many times over.  ;D

Matt

--- End quote ---

 Matt,

Same here Brother!

I might have died missing teeth, probably a hand or foot, maybe an eye or two as well, not a pretty picture.  ;)

Peace,

Joe

P.S. AMEN! to the New Covenant

Chris R:
Hi Joe,

I have found little evidence that the tribes actually executed these judgements on anyone. Who could do such a thing? 17And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death....Could any normal human being stone to death their Son or Daughter?

God knew they would not carry out these judgements,

And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD: for ye have not walked in my statutes, neither executed my judgments, but have done after the manners of the heathen that [are] round about you. [Eze 11:12]

But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, [Eze 20:13]

Of course there are a few examples, but these being the exception rather than the rule.

This is my understanding as of now.

Peace

Chris R

skydreamers:
Hi Chris,

Thanks for pointing that out!  I've never seen that before, but that certainly puts things in a different light.  Very cool.

Hi Joe,

You know, that lists reminds me of how I once struggled with the sabbath issue.  I had committed myself  a long while back to reading excerpts of the old testament (even though I really didn't want to, nor did I understand much of it) and I remember coming across a scripture where God said, through Moses, to stone a man who was found picking up sticks on the Sabbath. 

I immediately phoned up my dear friend, who is a physical Sabbath keeper (as I was at the time) and exclaimed, "What is this all about??"  As I started to study out how God had commanded the Israelites to physically keep the Sabbath I started to realize it was near impossible.  And furthermore, I didn't know of anyone in my Sabbath-keeping experience that kept the Sabbath in all the physical ways that God had commanded in the old testament.  So I said to my girlfriend, "Shouldn't we all be stoning each other???"

At the time, that was a real eye opener that something was amiss in how I understood the Sabbath....so I had to spend much time, study and prayer to sift through all that I had learned in the church and all that I was seeing in scripture. 

I wrote something like a 15 page letter to a well respected Preacher with an online ministry who was a Sabbath keeper (from whom I had learned a lot of wonderful things and who I myself respected greatly)...anyways, I wrote him with my honest questions and concerns and he didn't address not one of them.  He simply and kindly wrote back with a few lines saying that I was definitely on the wrong track, but keep on studying the Word.  I was sorely disappointed but God graciously gave me a peace about it and I continued my studies and God opened my eyes to the spiritual understanding of the Sabbath.

So this may seem long-winded, but the point I'm trying to make, is for me, scripture like you presented above no longer scares me or disturbs me as it once did, because even if I don't understand it all, I know there is a far deeper spiritual meaning behind it all....and God will make it clear in His time.

Peace,
Diana

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