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Author Topic: Why are animals condemned  (Read 3012 times)

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Zade

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Why are animals condemned
« on: June 29, 2007, 01:31:46 AM »

Through Adam's sin came condemnation to all MEN. Sometimes it seems like animals are condemned more than men. Death was passed on from Adam because he disobeyed God, but animals are a whole other race, why was death and suffering passed to them?

I've actually heard it suggested that animals actually don't suffer, or even that they aren't really concious because it never said the animals became living souls, only men.

I understand sacrifices and offerings, but apart from that, why does there need to be animal suffering, or does the above theory have some level of truth?

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gmik

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Re: Why are animals condemned
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2007, 01:38:09 AM »

Ecclesiastes says we are like the beasts.  And we both die.

I have often heard that Jesus was born in a manger in front of the animals to "honor" them bcz they were innocent of shed blood.  Course that was babylonian gobbledegook.

We all have love and "warm fuzzies" for our animals.  You are asking that when they die do they just die (disappear) or does God have a plan/place for them in His Kingdom?

Well, they are probably around in the new earth during 1,000 year reign, but I don't know about when Jesus turns everything over to God and then we are All in All.

C'mon you animal lovers, what do ya think?? 
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Why are animals condemned
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2007, 03:07:03 AM »



Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly awaits the revelation of the sons of God.
v. 20  For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but through Him subjecting it, on hope;
v. 21  that also the creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption to the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
v. 22  For we know that all the creation groans together and travails together until now.

This age is for the experience of good and evil for mankind, that obviously has carries over into the animal kingdom.  Eveything in the world is physical and temporary, it was not meant to last, except the spiritual.

2Co 4:18  we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during.

Of course animals suffer pain, but I don't feel they preceive death. I believe animals will always be on earth.  They will also benefit greatly when Christ sets up His kingdom on this earth, I believe He will stop the horrible destruction to the beautiful nature of this world.  This whole world will be transform under the rule of Christ, both spiritually and physically.

1Co 2:9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


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musicman

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Re: Why are animals condemned
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2007, 03:16:57 AM »

Through Adam's sin came condemnation to all MEN. Sometimes it seems like animals are condemned more than men. Death was passed on from Adam because he disobeyed God, but animals are a whole other race, why was death and suffering passed to them?

I've actually heard it suggested that animals actually don't suffer, or even that they aren't really conscious because it never said the animals became living souls, only men.

I understand sacrifices and offerings, but apart from that, why does there need to be animal suffering, or does the above theory have some level of truth?



Um. . . gee . . . I don't know quite how to say this.  I mean no disrespect to the young earth people. . . but I think it is clear from science that animals were suffering and dying long before Adam was ever created.  Let's say. . . um . . .several million years prior to the creation of man.  And I don't believe that the tyrannosaurus Rex ate leaves.  Ray has my back on this one.  The world and universe was not created in six literal days.  The word yom could mean a long period of time.  So it doesn't violate scripture by saying, In the beginning (bang), God created the heaven and the earth.  Billions of years later (I know I'm deviating a little from Ray but . . .) was the first day (which lasted ?? millions of years, etc.).  No, I don't believe in evolution.  The Cambrian Explosion pretty much explains that away (so does scripture, I think).  The real science being studied points directly to the God of the bible.

By the way, why is there a law in the O.T. that states that if a bull gorges a person, that bull must be stoned to death?  I can't remember the scripture.  But I was wondering how a dumb animal can be held accountable for a man's screw up.  I'm sure I read it correctly.  Today, you would just shoot the beast and put it out of it's misery.  Actually, when I saw the post, I was thinking this was the subject.  Does anybody else recall that most mysterious command of God?  
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chuckt

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Re: Why are animals condemned
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2007, 08:37:42 AM »

hello.

adam and eve where made from dirt oustide the garden.

"worldy" dirt, flesh was never ment to live for ever.

Dieing ye shall die. adam was dieing from the day he was made.((flesh))

eve also  was OF the world to for she lusted  BEFORE she ate.

adam and eve  where """fallen"" from day one they WERE naked just didnt know it yet.

great topic and lots there
chuck


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hillsbororiver

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Re: Why are animals condemned
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2007, 09:02:00 AM »


By the way, why is there a law in the O.T. that states that if a bull gorges a person, that bull must be stoned to death?  I can't remember the scripture.  But I was wondering how a dumb animal can be held accountable for a man's screw up.  I'm sure I read it correctly.  Today, you would just shoot the beast and put it out of it's misery.  Actually, when I saw the post, I was thinking this was the subject.  Does anybody else recall that most mysterious command of God?
  

Hi musicman,

Yes, it is in Exodus 21. I had the whole chapter in another thread.


 http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4780.0.html

Here are the verses you are referring to,

Exo 21:28 If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.

Exo 21:29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

You can see that the ox is not destroyed unless someone is killed, but woe to the owner if his ox pokes someone, is told about it and later his ox gores a person to death....

His Peace to you,

Joe
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Chris R

  • Guest
Re: Why are animals condemned
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2007, 09:18:23 AM »

Hi folks,

I'm going to say a few words, then allow a few responces and then, lets move on.

The topic is reasonable enough, but is hypothetical at best. We endear ourselves to animals like pets, because in some ways they take on human traits, they remind us of ourselves, but what are they thinking?..I haven't a clue. "All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds."[1Cor 15:39]

But this subject can also turn into a debate, but to what end? All we will have a the end of this thread, is the same questions that we had at the beginning of the thread.

Peace

Chris R

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sansmile

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Re: Why are animals condemned
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2007, 11:04:30 AM »

Hi Chris,
I agree but just felt pulled to respond to part of the post by musicman, which was:


The world and universe was not created in six literal days.  The word yom could mean a long period of time.  So it doesn't violate scripture by saying, In the beginning (bang), God created the heaven and the earth

I think all of us could "assume" we know the things of God, but what puzzles me with the unliteral 7day theory is that (as someone once already has pointed out in another thread) Adam was created on the 6th day and he lived until he was 930yrs.

Gen 5:5)  And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

Now, the way i see it is, if Adam was created on the 6th day and he reached 930yrs, then the 7th day couldnt have been for 1000yrs, otherwise Adam would have been 1930 yrs old???

Sorry for diversing!
God Bless
Sandie
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Walk in the Spirit

mari_et_pere

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Re: Why are animals condemned
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2007, 12:11:59 PM »

Please don't call PETA on me or throw fake animal blood on my house or family, or send me death threats in defense of the poor defenseless (also sometimes killer) animals, but:

I realize why people like animals so much. They're a fascinating, sometimes beautiful, part of God's creation. God's creation is God's creation and He'll do what He pleases with His creation to fulfill His purpose. If that causes animals to die or get hurt then so be it. It is just an animal.

Plants are alive. Should we form a PETP for plants? That'd be stupid? Sorry but God put them all on this planet for what? For US. I don't serve animals, they serve me. We can learn a lot from them and find pleasure in them, and that's about it. We can't talk with them like Dr. Doolittle, they can't interact with us very much unless to tell us they're hungry or want their backs scratched (no man bashing jokes needed here ladies  ;D) so basically what are they for? To me they proclaim God's majesty as part of His amazing creation. (no matter how He did it or How long He took to do it.)

Sorry if I've offended.

Matt
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YellowStone

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Re: Why are animals condemned
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2007, 12:45:24 PM »

Hi Matt,

As usual you have triggered a thought that needs to be explored! :)

We all know how Christ expounded on al the importance of being meek and lowly of heart.

Mat 5:5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 

Take up our yoke? What does this really mean? We can really put this into perspective when we give thought to the many oxen, donkeys and mules that bare incredible loads under the most adverse conditions, yet continue on, one step after another, without nary a sound. Who then are we to complain?

And how God gave us all of his creation to study and learn from:

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

How many of our pets could be considered meek and mid. How many of the same put all of their trust in us, their keeper. Are not the trusting traits of animals, who were once wild and free an excellent example for us all. For our God and Father is our Keeper. Do we trust Him the same?

Psa 121:5 The LORD [is] thy keeper: the LORD [is] thy shade upon thy right hand.  

Matt, you are right. Animals serve man in the same way we are to serve God. :)

Great thead everyone.

Love, Darren

« Last Edit: June 29, 2007, 01:55:10 PM by YellowStone »
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chuckt

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Re: Why are animals condemned
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2007, 01:26:27 PM »

Quote
Matt, you are right. Animals serve man in the same way we are to serve God. :)



tell that to my cats.. :-* :P :D
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mari_et_pere

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Re: Why are animals condemned
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2007, 11:03:46 AM »

Quote
Matt, you are right. Animals serve man in the same way we are to serve God.



tell that to my cats..   

Chuck LOL!  ;D I had the same thought about our two dogs. Actually one is my wife's, one is her mom's. They need to step it up if they want to serve me.  ;D :D

Matt
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Shmeggly

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Re: Why are animals condemned
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2007, 03:42:30 PM »

I agree, animals were put here to serve us and be useful.  Having said that, I heartily endorse the kind treatment of animals (even the ones we eat!)....this being said so I also won't have blood etc. thrown on my house, or death threats!

I eat meat, would wear fur, have ridden horses etc.  We have pets and they are like part of the family (not completely like a child mind you  ;))

This is one thing I object to: In our last church, our little children were told (by their sunday school teachers) on more than a few occasions that their pets were NOT going to heaven, and the pets that had just died would NOT be going to heaven....my daughter was telling her teacher that she talked to her dead rabbit and it made her feel better....she was told that the rabbit was dead and couldn't hear her and wasn't in heaven....
Oh my God!!!  (I did let the pastor hear about this in strong terms)  It was shortly after that we left the church.  When making sure your correct doctrine (though not clear biblically) was more important than a child's feelings....so....

My take on it?  If it isn't clear about animals, why not err on the side of caution?  Specially when dealing with young children.  I believe they have a future....and I believe they don't suffer like a human does, because they don't have the mental faculties to understand.  They are dumb animals, here for our benefit.  To be treated humanely, but not coddled like PETA would have it. 

I probably went off topic a bit, but I guess I was thinking about their future too....hope I didn't offend anyone either  :)  It can be a touchy subject....
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