bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Forum related how to's?  Post your questions to the membership.


.

Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Author Topic: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL  (Read 17884 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Dean Peterman

  • Guest
MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« on: June 30, 2007, 05:32:48 PM »

Dear Friends,

Joe, provided some excellent information in his reply to my question on the immortal soul.  He makes an excellent point that the Bible does not specifically say anyone is going to be with God immediately after they die.  At least that is what I think Joe is saying.  However, I want to streamline this question a little more so we can focus more narrowly on where my confusion lies.  The Bible seems to indicate in some verses that when people physically die they immediately go to be with God or go to paradise or go to be with Jesus.  To me this seems to contradict everything else in the Bible that teaches we do not have an immortal soul.  But I know the Bible does not have any contradictions.  So, I am trying to understand what these verses mean if they are not telling us that people are going to be with God when they die.  This is the last piece of the puzzle for me.  If someone can explain this to me I would be very grateful. 

Luke 23:43  Today you will be with me in paradise.  (But they were going to be dead within an hour so how could they be in a place called paradise that very day)

Luke 23:46  Father into your hands I commit my spirit.    (What does this mean?  Is his spirit going to God)

Acts 7:59  And as they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.  (Again, it sounds like Stephens spirit is going to be with Jesus)

There are other verses such as Paul saying he would rather die and go to be with Jesus but it is better if he stays.  But these verses all convey the issue I am trying to understand. 

I would appreciate any insights someone may have.

Sincerely,

Dean

 

Logged

hillsbororiver

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2007, 05:45:00 PM »

Hello again Dean,

Ray writes on this topic extensively throughout his papers, here is an article that specifically addresses your questions;



AN ENCOURAGING THOUGHT ABOUT DEATH

Death has two different meanings that are essential for us to differentiate:

The ACT OF DYING or termination of life.

The STATE OF BEING DEAD.

All humanity will experience "the act of dying," but absolutely no one will ever experience the "state of being dead." And this is because:

"For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything…" (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

This may be comforting to some, but scary to others. It all depends on your point of view; your perspective; your emotional stability; your up-bringing; your understanding. What I want to do in this little article is give you an encouraging perspective of death. "How can anything be encouraging when it comes to death?" you are probably asking. Well, let me try and answer that for you.

Virtually every time that I have read that verse (dozens of times), it was to prove to someone that we do not have an immortal soul that lives on after death of the body, nor do we have consciousness as is taught in Christendom. But this past year I took another look at this verse and saw something else that I had never contemplated before.

Not only is there no consciousness in death, but there is no consciousness OF death either. This is the encouraging part.

"The living KNOW that they shall die, but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING."

Let’s think about that for a few moments and see if this is not quite encouraging.

"The living KNOW… the dead know NOTHING." The dead don’t know that they are dead. When you die, you will NOT KNOW THAT YOU ARE DEAD! But it gets better. Not only will you never know that you are dead at some point in the future, but from your perspective YOU NEVER EVEN LOST CONSCIOUSNESS. This to me was a marvelous revelation.

Once God creates consciousness in a human they will NEVER EVER know anything BUT CONSCIOUSNESS. From my perspective and from your perspective we will never "know" ANYTHING but life and feelings and emotions and consciousness. From our perspective we will never "know" what it is like to be dead. Oh we will probably die some day (assuming that the Lord doesn’t come first), but we will never know that we were dead; we will never know what it is to BE dead, or to BE unconscious. Others will know and sorrow (maybe?) that we are dead and gone, but from OUR perspective we will never lose conscious reality, and we will never "experience" being dead.

Now I didn’t say we would not experience "dying." Most (albeit not all) people who die, experience dying, but they do NOT experience death itself, nor will they ever. It is impossible for someone to experience the death state, seeing that where there is no consciousness, there is no experience, and therefore there is no memory of it. I will carry this one step further. Even if there was no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, the dead would never know that they died and would never know that they are dead.

This to me is an amazing thing. Once God created consciousness, cognizance, awareness, perception, sensation, emotions, and the like; we never ever loose it from OUR PERSPECTIVE, and after all, whose perspective counts the most when it comes to death—ours or someone else’s?

We may all go through the fear of dying or even the pain of dying, but there is no pain and no fear IN DEATH ITSELF. No one who is presently dead is aware of it, or experiencing it, or being frightened by it, or anything else.

DEATH IS SLEEP

I was tempted to make that caption: DEATH IS LIKE SLEEP, but that would be Scripturally inaccurate, as nowhere do the Scriptures state that death is "like" sleep, but rather that death IS SLEEP. God prepared Moses for death with the following:

"And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall sleep [Heb: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers…" (Deut. 31:16).

David said:

"Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).

When Lazarus was dead (John 11:14), Jesus said:

"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep" (John 11:11).

Do you fear when your children "sleep" at night? You know that they are safe in sleep. Even in sleep we have a slight awareness of life, especially when we are dreaming or falling in and out of sleep, but in death there is no consciousness nor sub-consciousness, and so you will never know that you are sleeping. You know that your children will awake in the morning. We all who died IN CHRIST, shall awake in the morning of resurrection. And when we do, we might remember dying, but we will not remember ever being dead.

On five different occasions I came very near to death. Three of the five times I was unconscious. For all practicality, I was dead. I remember what happened before and after being unconscious, but I remember nothing of BEING unconscious. Yet I knew that I was, but only after the fact by the evidence, not from my actual experience of having been under. The actual fact of death is no different from what I already experienced several times. And you have all experienced it already as well. We all sleep, and unless we have bad dreams, the experience of sleep itself is nothing fearful or painful.

Sleep is a way that God can set people aside for a little while as He works with our children and our children’s children. Centuries and millennia will pass for some, yet they will know no death, only consciousness. From our perspective we will never know anything but life and consciousness. Death won’t even be an illusion: it won’t be AT ALL. And that is because "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything."

The Apostle Paul was familiar with this verse, seeing that he earnestly studied the Hebrew Scriptures. With relation to this concept that "…the dead know not anything," Paul made the following statements:

"For we know, That if the tent of our earthy dwelling be taken down, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, aionian, in the heavens. For indeed to this we are groaning, earnestly desiring to be invested with that habitation of our which is from [not ‘in’] heaven: surely, having been invested, we shall not be found destitute.

For, indeed, those being in the tent are groaning, being oppressed; in which we desire not to be divested [naked], but invested [clothed], that the mortal may be absorbed by LIFE. Now He Who has produced this for this same thing is that God Who has given to us the pledge of the Spirit.

Therefore, being always confident, and knowing that being at home in the body [our body, in the flesh] we are from home [our real home, our immortal home], away from the Lord; for we are walking by Faith, not by sight [‘Blessed are they that have NOT seen, and yet have believed’ John 20:29] But we are confident, and well-pleased rather to be separated from the body, and TO BE [not instantly, but at a future time] at home [with our new spiritual bodies like Christ’s] with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:1-8, Emphatic Diaglott).

Yes, Paul knew that once he died the next waking moment would be in resurrection with a new body (I Cor. 15:49), and although it would happen in an instant (from this life to the next life without missing a heart beat), in the twinkling of an eye (less than a second), nonetheless, it would have to wait until "the LAST TRUMP’ (I Cor. 15:51). But to Paul from his perspective, it would only be but a moment in time, seeing that, "the living KNOW that they shall die, but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING."

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that SLEPT" (I Cor. 15:20).

Soon we too shall be like Him and see our Creator as He is:

"Beloved now are we the sons of God, but it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when He shall appear, we shall BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as HE is pure" (I John 3:2-3)

Make no mistake: death is an enemy, but it is "being ABOLISHED" (I Cor. 15:26) by the One who has already had victory over it. And although we will never experience being dead, we certainly experience the loss of our loved ones who have died, and they will experience loss when we die.

So take courage: If you are reading this little article then you are alive, and that is all you will EVER KNOW… LIFE!


http://bible-truths.com/death.htm
« Last Edit: June 30, 2007, 05:50:10 PM by hillsbororiver »
Logged

Robin

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2007, 07:48:44 PM »

Here is an email from Ray addressing the spirit returning to God at death.

Every person (and animal) has a "spirit."  There is no life without spirit. At death OUR spirit return to our God Who gave it to us. Spirit does not die. But, spirit has no consciencousness of its own. It must be united with a body. That is why there is coming a Resurrection of the DEAD. Adam's body had the spirit of God breathed into it and then Adam became a LIVING SOUL.  God's Holy Spirit is His Spirit of Holiness which imparts spiritual knowledge and spiritual character to those who possess it. The wicked and unbelievers have a spirit that keeps them alive, but they have no spiritual perception of spiritual truths because they do not possess the Holy Spirit of God living in us through Jesus Christ our Lord. ETc. Sorry, but it would take days to answer your question in detail.

God be with you,

Ray
Logged

zvezda

  • Bible-Truths Forum Member
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 186
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2007, 10:51:46 PM »


Luke 23:43  Today you will be with me in paradise.  (But they were going to be dead within an hour so how could they be in a place called paradise that very day)


Ray explained this in an email, hope this helps:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4646.0.html

> Ray...in a past e-mail a woman commented on Jesus going to Paradise after
> his death on the cross, you commented that nowhere does the Bible state
> Jesus was ever in Paradise... Luke 23:43 ..."Assuredly I
> say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." Either Jesus was in
> Paradise that day or you are stating that Jesus was a liar.
> Amber O'Brien
>

Dear Amber:

    That's pretty strong language to accuse me of making Christ a LIAR, Amber.
    You are assuming numerous things that are not necessarily Biblical at all.
    What is "paradise?"  Where is it?  Are you sure? Do you have Scriptural proof?
    Jesus "DIED" for our sins according to the Scriptures (I Cor. 15:3). And after
    Jesus DIED, He was DEAD (a Scriptural and scientific truth denied by most
    of Christendom).  God the Father raised Jesus 'FROM THE DEAD' (Gal. 1:1),
    which is proof that Jesus WAS DEAD!  And if He was DEAD in the tomb,
    He was not LIVING at some other location called "paradise." Do I also make
    the Scriptures LIE when I present these Scriptural truths?  If as you suggest,
    Jesus was LIVING IN PARADISE on the very day that the Scriptures say Jesus
    would be DEAD IN A TOMB, then there is a contradiction, is there not?
     
    There was no punctuation in the original manuscripts from which our modern
    language bibles have been translated. Not that punctuation did not exist in
    the SPOKEN language, but it was not put into the written language. Hence,
    the very placement of a simple coma (,) can totally change the meaning of
    statement:  Even in speaking, we can place comas and change emphasis.
    Example:  "What's that up in the road ahead?" Versus:  "What's that up in
    the road, a head?"
     
    Here is this same verse from a few other translations:
     
    "Verily, to you am I saying today,  with Me SHALL YOU BE [at a future time] in paradise"
    (Concordant Literal New Testament).
     
    "And he said unto him—Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise"
    (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible).
     
    God be with you,
    Ray
     
    PS   One day I will write a paper on all the Christian nonsense about Jesus taking a trip
    to an alfter-life holding pen, where He supposedly preached the gospel to "spirits in prison,"
    when He was supposed to be dead in the tomb, paying for the sins of the world, but not today.

Logged

gmik

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2007, 02:32:39 AM »

Boy, 2 years later, re reading this is as good as it was the first time I read it!!

Thanks.
Logged

Chris R

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2007, 08:45:41 AM »

Its the comma,

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Yes Christ said to him on "that day" Thou shalt be with me in paradise,

So if i said to you today, that you will die, as all men eventually do...does that mean that you will die today?...of course not.

Best way i can explain part of your question.

Chris R
Logged

Dean Peterman

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2007, 01:51:35 PM »

Thank you everyone for helping me.

It is amazing when I look at the replies and how widely dispersed people are.  I am getting help from all over the country and even the world.  Keep the insights coming.  They are very helpful.

Sincerely,

Dean
Logged

YellowStone

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2007, 02:08:09 PM »

Hi Chris,

There is a wonderful witness to your placement of the comma, and that is that Christ himself did not (as far as we are told) return to heaven to be with his Father immediately following his death. Christ walked this earth before the crucification as a 100% human mand. When he died, his spirit returned to the one whom gave it just as our spirit will likely return when we die.

Mar 15:37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.  

Ghost - ek-pne'-ō (Key) [G1606]

    1) to breathe out, breathe out one's life, breathe one's last, expire

Which is in perfect agreement with the following:

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Kind of deflates the argument of whether or not the forgiven criminal did or not got to paradise that same day, when Christ himself did not return to his Father until much later. (Acts 1:1-11)

Even given this, could not the "paradise" mentioned by Christ refer to the coming Earthly paradise, foretold by Christ? :)

Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. 

Love in Christ,
Darren
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 09:34:45 PM by YellowStone »
Logged

DizzyD

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2007, 09:06:08 PM »

            Rodger,
                    I think I know what the problem with Dean is He believes the immortal soul and the spirit are one and the same
Logged

Falconn003

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2007, 09:24:09 PM »

Dizzy

I agree with you.

Many inserts from Ray's articles and scriptures from the Word of God, explaining this spirit = soul fallacy, were sincerly posted to his thread.  Yet.....YET.... now he thinks a 2nd streamline thread on the imortal soul is needed. ((brillant)) This i do not even get ???

Rodger
« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 09:25:45 PM by Falconn003 »
Logged

TimothyVI

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2007, 06:38:05 PM »

Well Lord help any other new person that has the nerve to not catch on quickly enough for Roger.
That wasn't a rebuke, it was a tirade. Don't use Jesus as an example of that kind of sarcasm
Jesus used sarcasm when rebuking the pharasees, but even after three years of living and teaching
his desciples, he was not harsh with them for not understanding.

I thought that this was a discussion forum. A discussion is a discourse among multiple persons.
It doesn't mean, I tell you once and I don't want to hear from you again.

Roger, you were tearing apart things like sentence structure. What were you so angry about.
I knew that when Dean said "again" that he meant and here is another example, another verse, not that Stephen was dieing more than once. I thought that Dean was confused about the difference between soul and spirit. So he hasn't fully read and understood all of Ray's articles yet. I am starting on my fourth time around on his articles, and still learn something new that I missed the other times. through.

If I had been responded to as Dean was by you, I would not post again if I thought that your's was an example of the kind of welcome that I would get from others on this forum.

I am embarrassed for this forum. :'(

Tim
Logged

LittleBear

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2007, 09:08:12 PM »

Thank you Tim for your post.

I agree with your sentiments. It breaks my heart to see a new person being spoken to in such a disrespectful way. Dean seems quite sincere in his question. He deserves encouragement and council and not sarcasm.

Ursula
Logged

UncleBeau

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2007, 04:02:23 PM »

When I was studying a little on the book of Enoch, I found this:
Chapter 8 verse 5 (Slavonic Enoch or 2 Enoch)
"And paradise is between corruptibility and incorruptibility."
Does this get the gears going anyone?
If you want something else to look at, do a search on each time the "tree of life" is mentioned and look up what "paradise" translates to. Remember 1 Cor. 15:53? "For this corruptible must put on incorruption"... What happens in between where there are no activities or thoughts of any kind? 
Logged

Jackie Lee

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2007, 04:39:57 PM »

Well Lord help any other new person that has the nerve to not catch on quickly enough for Roger.
That wasn't a rebuke, it was a tirade. Don't use Jesus as an example of that kind of sarcasm
Jesus used sarcasm when rebuking the pharasees, but even after three years of living and teaching
his desciples, he was not harsh with them for not understanding.

I thought that this was a discussion forum. A discussion is a discourse among multiple persons.
It doesn't mean, I tell you once and I don't want to hear from you again.

Roger, you were tearing apart things like sentence structure. What were you so angry about.
I knew that when Dean said "again" that he meant and here is another example, another verse, not that Stephen was dieing more than once. I thought that Dean was confused about the difference between soul and spirit. So he hasn't fully read and understood all of Ray's articles yet. I am starting on my fourth time around on his articles, and still learn something new that I missed the other times. through.

If I had been responded to as Dean was by you, I would not post again if I thought that your's was an example of the kind of welcome that I would get from others on this forum.

I am embarrassed for this forum. :'(

Tim
I agree Tim, this is just one of the reasons I don't post much here, I am new to the truth also and this is abusive.
Rodger Ray is no where like that... if that is what you are trying to do act like him.
Are we supposed to be so self righteous?
I think not.
I seldom say anything, just read but I can say Rodger you are really a problem.
 Rodger you may need to reconsider yourself, you have a problem with anger and lack of self control.
Not everyone has the answers like you seem to think you do.
 I have been reading here for about 6 months and posted also, as long as you are allowed to abuse God's people this will be my last post.

I hope I don't have a problem with the mods but you are tearing down not building up.
You can consider there are people searching for the truth and you are a hinderance. Jackie
Logged

Dean Peterman

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2007, 09:12:29 PM »

Dear Jackie Lee,

Rodger apologized and we are ok with each other.  He made an honest mistake.  We all have our buttons pushed the wrong way sometimes and say things we later regret.  This is the case with Rodger.   He didn't mean any harm.  He is a good man.  Don't let this discourage you. 

Sincerely,

Dean
Logged

DuluthGA

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2007, 01:14:48 AM »

Hi Dean,

Here are more verses for you in addition to the ones already given.  It's become my practice to compile theme papers of verses that relate to whatever subjects I'm interested in.  It's easy to copy and paste them from online bibles.  As I find a verse that pertains to one of the many theme papers I've got going, I add it to the list.  Over time they really start to add up.

These verses refer to death as being like sleep/rest or actually being dead.

Here are some verses from the O.T.
Eccl 3:2, Psa 13: 3, Job 17: 13-16, Gen 2: 7 Eccl 12: 7 [Note:  Man, the living soul, is dead], Job 34: 15, Eccl 8: 8a, Dan 12: 2 [Beware the word everlasting], Dan 12: 13, Ezek 18: 4, 20, Josh 1: 1-2 [Our Lord said he was dead], Job 7: 9-10, Eccl 9: 5-6,10, Psa 146: 4, Job 14: 12-14, 21, Psa 89: 48, Psa 6: 5, Psa 17: 15,Isa 38: 18, 2Chron 33: 20, Eccl 3: 18-19.

Here are some verses from the N.T.
John 11: 25-26, 1Tim 6: 15-16, Acts 13: 36-37, Eph 5: 14, John 8: 51-52 [Implied: The 2nd death], 2Cor 4: 14, Acts 2: 29, 34, 1Thes 5: 10, Luke 8: 52-53, Acts 7: 59-60, 1Thes 4: 13-16, 1Cor 15: 5-6, 12-18, 20-23, 29-32, 35, 42-44a, 1Cor 11: 30, 1Cor 7: 39, Matt 27: 50-53 [Some people were raised from the dead back to physical life when Jesus died.  Without any doubt, they died (again) later in their lives.]

If you should take the time to copy and paste them then print them out, you will have great evidence that when you die, you really are dead.   ;)

By the way there more verses than listed here.

Wishing you the best, Janice  :)

« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 01:55:00 AM by DuluthGA »
Logged

Dean Peterman

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2007, 09:15:03 AM »

Dear Janice,

Thank you for the verses.  I will definitely look them up.  I am very close to being 100% convinced of this.  I did read Ray's article before starting this post.  In fact, he personally e-mailed me and told me where to read.  However, I needed a little extra boost so to speak to help me get over the last few hurdles.  I find that the insights of other people can often be a great help.  Sometimes they can phrase something in just the right way that helps me to see a particular truth more clearly.  These types of discussions can put the moderators in a difficult situation because the forum is dedicated to discussing Ray's articles.  There is a legitimate concern that people can inadvertently teach falsehood when they act in the role of a teacher.  I do understand the moderators viewpoint on this and agree with them that it is reasonable to ask people to abide by these rules.  The difficulty is knowing exactly when we are crossing the line and going off on a tangent of our own.  I don't want to mislead anyone by making it seem that I agree with everything Ray teaches but I do have the obligation and duty to abide by the rules.  I have done my best to do this.  I have learned a lot from Ray and hope to continue learning more.  Thanks again for providing me with so many verses to look up.

Sincerely,

Dean
Logged

chuckt

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2007, 04:33:47 PM »

EDIT.................


Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

  God says ,Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die


all have sinned and come short.


hows that?






« Last Edit: July 12, 2007, 05:02:24 PM by chuckt »
Logged

Jackie Lee

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2007, 04:56:23 PM »

Hi Rodger thanks for the response, I do read Ray's teaching daily and also read the words of Jesus.
What I was and am saying is when someone asks a question or needs an answer we have to respond with a little kindness.
Dean said you had it worked out between you so I am fine with that.
I really like the way Kat responds always firm but seldom harsh.
 She gets her point across very well.
I am not here to cause division so how you respond from now on is between you and God.
Logged

Falconn003

  • Guest
Re: MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2007, 04:57:48 PM »

Jackie lee

well said........what can i say ...it's me  ;)

Rodger
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.038 seconds with 19 queries.