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MORE ON THE IMMORTAL SOUL
Dean Peterman:
Dear Friends,
Joe, provided some excellent information in his reply to my question on the immortal soul. He makes an excellent point that the Bible does not specifically say anyone is going to be with God immediately after they die. At least that is what I think Joe is saying. However, I want to streamline this question a little more so we can focus more narrowly on where my confusion lies. The Bible seems to indicate in some verses that when people physically die they immediately go to be with God or go to paradise or go to be with Jesus. To me this seems to contradict everything else in the Bible that teaches we do not have an immortal soul. But I know the Bible does not have any contradictions. So, I am trying to understand what these verses mean if they are not telling us that people are going to be with God when they die. This is the last piece of the puzzle for me. If someone can explain this to me I would be very grateful.
Luke 23:43 Today you will be with me in paradise. (But they were going to be dead within an hour so how could they be in a place called paradise that very day)
Luke 23:46 Father into your hands I commit my spirit. (What does this mean? Is his spirit going to God)
Acts 7:59 And as they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. (Again, it sounds like Stephens spirit is going to be with Jesus)
There are other verses such as Paul saying he would rather die and go to be with Jesus but it is better if he stays. But these verses all convey the issue I am trying to understand.
I would appreciate any insights someone may have.
Sincerely,
Dean
hillsbororiver:
Hello again Dean,
Ray writes on this topic extensively throughout his papers, here is an article that specifically addresses your questions;
AN ENCOURAGING THOUGHT ABOUT DEATH
Death has two different meanings that are essential for us to differentiate:
The ACT OF DYING or termination of life.
The STATE OF BEING DEAD.
All humanity will experience "the act of dying," but absolutely no one will ever experience the "state of being dead." And this is because:
"For the living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything…" (Ecclesiastes 9:5).
This may be comforting to some, but scary to others. It all depends on your point of view; your perspective; your emotional stability; your up-bringing; your understanding. What I want to do in this little article is give you an encouraging perspective of death. "How can anything be encouraging when it comes to death?" you are probably asking. Well, let me try and answer that for you.
Virtually every time that I have read that verse (dozens of times), it was to prove to someone that we do not have an immortal soul that lives on after death of the body, nor do we have consciousness as is taught in Christendom. But this past year I took another look at this verse and saw something else that I had never contemplated before.
Not only is there no consciousness in death, but there is no consciousness OF death either. This is the encouraging part.
"The living KNOW that they shall die, but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING."
Let’s think about that for a few moments and see if this is not quite encouraging.
"The living KNOW… the dead know NOTHING." The dead don’t know that they are dead. When you die, you will NOT KNOW THAT YOU ARE DEAD! But it gets better. Not only will you never know that you are dead at some point in the future, but from your perspective YOU NEVER EVEN LOST CONSCIOUSNESS. This to me was a marvelous revelation.
Once God creates consciousness in a human they will NEVER EVER know anything BUT CONSCIOUSNESS. From my perspective and from your perspective we will never "know" ANYTHING but life and feelings and emotions and consciousness. From our perspective we will never "know" what it is like to be dead. Oh we will probably die some day (assuming that the Lord doesn’t come first), but we will never know that we were dead; we will never know what it is to BE dead, or to BE unconscious. Others will know and sorrow (maybe?) that we are dead and gone, but from OUR perspective we will never lose conscious reality, and we will never "experience" being dead.
Now I didn’t say we would not experience "dying." Most (albeit not all) people who die, experience dying, but they do NOT experience death itself, nor will they ever. It is impossible for someone to experience the death state, seeing that where there is no consciousness, there is no experience, and therefore there is no memory of it. I will carry this one step further. Even if there was no such thing as a resurrection from the dead, the dead would never know that they died and would never know that they are dead.
This to me is an amazing thing. Once God created consciousness, cognizance, awareness, perception, sensation, emotions, and the like; we never ever loose it from OUR PERSPECTIVE, and after all, whose perspective counts the most when it comes to death—ours or someone else’s?
We may all go through the fear of dying or even the pain of dying, but there is no pain and no fear IN DEATH ITSELF. No one who is presently dead is aware of it, or experiencing it, or being frightened by it, or anything else.
DEATH IS SLEEP
I was tempted to make that caption: DEATH IS LIKE SLEEP, but that would be Scripturally inaccurate, as nowhere do the Scriptures state that death is "like" sleep, but rather that death IS SLEEP. God prepared Moses for death with the following:
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall sleep [Heb: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers…" (Deut. 31:16).
David said:
"Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).
When Lazarus was dead (John 11:14), Jesus said:
"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep" (John 11:11).
Do you fear when your children "sleep" at night? You know that they are safe in sleep. Even in sleep we have a slight awareness of life, especially when we are dreaming or falling in and out of sleep, but in death there is no consciousness nor sub-consciousness, and so you will never know that you are sleeping. You know that your children will awake in the morning. We all who died IN CHRIST, shall awake in the morning of resurrection. And when we do, we might remember dying, but we will not remember ever being dead.
On five different occasions I came very near to death. Three of the five times I was unconscious. For all practicality, I was dead. I remember what happened before and after being unconscious, but I remember nothing of BEING unconscious. Yet I knew that I was, but only after the fact by the evidence, not from my actual experience of having been under. The actual fact of death is no different from what I already experienced several times. And you have all experienced it already as well. We all sleep, and unless we have bad dreams, the experience of sleep itself is nothing fearful or painful.
Sleep is a way that God can set people aside for a little while as He works with our children and our children’s children. Centuries and millennia will pass for some, yet they will know no death, only consciousness. From our perspective we will never know anything but life and consciousness. Death won’t even be an illusion: it won’t be AT ALL. And that is because "The living know that they shall die, but the dead know not anything."
The Apostle Paul was familiar with this verse, seeing that he earnestly studied the Hebrew Scriptures. With relation to this concept that "…the dead know not anything," Paul made the following statements:
"For we know, That if the tent of our earthy dwelling be taken down, we have a building from God, a house not made by hands, aionian, in the heavens. For indeed to this we are groaning, earnestly desiring to be invested with that habitation of our which is from [not ‘in’] heaven: surely, having been invested, we shall not be found destitute.
For, indeed, those being in the tent are groaning, being oppressed; in which we desire not to be divested [naked], but invested [clothed], that the mortal may be absorbed by LIFE. Now He Who has produced this for this same thing is that God Who has given to us the pledge of the Spirit.
Therefore, being always confident, and knowing that being at home in the body [our body, in the flesh] we are from home [our real home, our immortal home], away from the Lord; for we are walking by Faith, not by sight [‘Blessed are they that have NOT seen, and yet have believed’ John 20:29] But we are confident, and well-pleased rather to be separated from the body, and TO BE [not instantly, but at a future time] at home [with our new spiritual bodies like Christ’s] with the Lord" (II Cor. 5:1-8, Emphatic Diaglott).
Yes, Paul knew that once he died the next waking moment would be in resurrection with a new body (I Cor. 15:49), and although it would happen in an instant (from this life to the next life without missing a heart beat), in the twinkling of an eye (less than a second), nonetheless, it would have to wait until "the LAST TRUMP’ (I Cor. 15:51). But to Paul from his perspective, it would only be but a moment in time, seeing that, "the living KNOW that they shall die, but the dead KNOW NOT ANYTHING."
"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that SLEPT" (I Cor. 15:20).
Soon we too shall be like Him and see our Creator as He is:
"Beloved now are we the sons of God, but it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when He shall appear, we shall BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as HE is pure" (I John 3:2-3)
Make no mistake: death is an enemy, but it is "being ABOLISHED" (I Cor. 15:26) by the One who has already had victory over it. And although we will never experience being dead, we certainly experience the loss of our loved ones who have died, and they will experience loss when we die.
So take courage: If you are reading this little article then you are alive, and that is all you will EVER KNOW… LIFE!
http://bible-truths.com/death.htm
Robin:
Here is an email from Ray addressing the spirit returning to God at death.
Every person (and animal) has a "spirit." There is no life without spirit. At death OUR spirit return to our God Who gave it to us. Spirit does not die. But, spirit has no consciencousness of its own. It must be united with a body. That is why there is coming a Resurrection of the DEAD. Adam's body had the spirit of God breathed into it and then Adam became a LIVING SOUL. God's Holy Spirit is His Spirit of Holiness which imparts spiritual knowledge and spiritual character to those who possess it. The wicked and unbelievers have a spirit that keeps them alive, but they have no spiritual perception of spiritual truths because they do not possess the Holy Spirit of God living in us through Jesus Christ our Lord. ETc. Sorry, but it would take days to answer your question in detail.
God be with you,
Ray
zvezda:
--- Quote from: Dean Peterman on June 30, 2007, 02:32:48 PM ---
Luke 23:43 Today you will be with me in paradise. (But they were going to be dead within an hour so how could they be in a place called paradise that very day)
--- End quote ---
Ray explained this in an email, hope this helps:
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4646.0.html
> Ray...in a past e-mail a woman commented on Jesus going to Paradise after
> his death on the cross, you commented that nowhere does the Bible state
> Jesus was ever in Paradise... Luke 23:43 ..."Assuredly I
> say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." Either Jesus was in
> Paradise that day or you are stating that Jesus was a liar.
> Amber O'Brien
>
Dear Amber:
That's pretty strong language to accuse me of making Christ a LIAR, Amber.
You are assuming numerous things that are not necessarily Biblical at all.
What is "paradise?" Where is it? Are you sure? Do you have Scriptural proof?
Jesus "DIED" for our sins according to the Scriptures (I Cor. 15:3). And after
Jesus DIED, He was DEAD (a Scriptural and scientific truth denied by most
of Christendom). God the Father raised Jesus 'FROM THE DEAD' (Gal. 1:1),
which is proof that Jesus WAS DEAD! And if He was DEAD in the tomb,
He was not LIVING at some other location called "paradise." Do I also make
the Scriptures LIE when I present these Scriptural truths? If as you suggest,
Jesus was LIVING IN PARADISE on the very day that the Scriptures say Jesus
would be DEAD IN A TOMB, then there is a contradiction, is there not?
There was no punctuation in the original manuscripts from which our modern
language bibles have been translated. Not that punctuation did not exist in
the SPOKEN language, but it was not put into the written language. Hence,
the very placement of a simple coma (,) can totally change the meaning of
statement: Even in speaking, we can place comas and change emphasis.
Example: "What's that up in the road ahead?" Versus: "What's that up in
the road, a head?"
Here is this same verse from a few other translations:
"Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me SHALL YOU BE [at a future time] in paradise"
(Concordant Literal New Testament).
"And he said unto him—Verily, I say unto thee this day: With me, shalt thou be in Paradise"
(Rotherham's Emphasized Bible).
God be with you,
Ray
PS One day I will write a paper on all the Christian nonsense about Jesus taking a trip
to an alfter-life holding pen, where He supposedly preached the gospel to "spirits in prison,"
when He was supposed to be dead in the tomb, paying for the sins of the world, but not today.
gmik:
Boy, 2 years later, re reading this is as good as it was the first time I read it!!
Thanks.
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