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Author Topic: I am new here and I have a few questions!  (Read 11059 times)

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PJNPSWISS

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I am new here and I have a few questions!
« on: July 01, 2007, 07:08:18 AM »

Hello Everyone,

I am very interested in the truths of the Bible! I see that there are some things that I have never heard before and it interest me the teachings that I have read through here on your web site. I agree with most everything. I agree that God is not a trinity, there is no eternal Hell (but I do have some questions on this subject), I agree that we should follow the teachings of Christ to get to the father, and I also agree on the tithing issue. I also agree that the apostals did not understand Christ teachings until after his death!

Now my first question is about hell. I do not see how everyone will be saved? I have read through your things but it seems that there are a lot of text that show that the wicked will suffer the secound death. That means they will miss out on eternal life. They will be burned up and turned to ash like the Devil will be at the end. Ezekiel 28:11-19. Now maybe this is wrong but from all the text that is used about the seperation of the wicked from the believers, it seems that the Bible has a lot of referense to this fact. Plus with what Jesus says in the letters to the 7 churches of Rev.1-3. That they who overcome will be saved.

How can you explain so many text that show that the wicked will not go to heaven? I mean what does being thrown into the fire mean? How are they cleansed? Isn't the spirit of God that cleanses those that choose to follow Christ and his teachings? These are just some of the questions that I have.

I would really like to understand why so many text show that the wicked will be burned up and suffer the secound death and yet you claim from the Bible that the will all be saved? Should it not be clear? For God is not a God of confusion.

God Bless!

PJ
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Chris R

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2007, 08:34:56 AM »

Hi PJ

http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html

What is literal?..What is a parable?..

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:14

Read the words.....what IS the second death?

Now read these words: "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." [1Cor 3:15]

The sciptures do not contradict one another. you must read the words, and understand the translation.

hope this is of some help

Chris R
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Kat

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2007, 09:46:45 AM »


Hi PJ,

I found these emails that I think will help your understanding on this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2389.0.html -------

Dear Mike:
Not only do some reject Jesus and perish, MOST reject Jesus and perish. But that is not the end. That is not their eternal destiny. The Greek word "apollumi" is the word translated "destroy," "lost," and "perish" in the King James Bible. All three are translated from this one Greek word, many times.  Appolumi is translated according to the context of a verse, hence: the sheep was LOST (it did not perish, nor was it destroyed, as it was later FOUND, but it was "apollumi" in that it was lost.  Those that enter into the "broad way that leads to DESTRUCTION" are also "apollumi"--destroyed.  And those who do not accept Jesus as their Saviour will also "apollumi," that is they will PERISH.  It's all the same condition. One can be lost in a fire, destroyed in a fire, or perish in a fire. Regardless, you loose your life.
 
But (and here comes the good news), Jesus came TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST [apollumi]" (Mark 18:11;  Luke 19:10).  Jesus Christ came for the express purpose of SAVING all those who are "apollumi"--LOST, DESTROYED, AND PERISHED!  There it is. Simple, huh?  One just needs to believe the Scriptures.
God be with you,
Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1884.0.html -----

"Destruction" has absolutely nothing to do with someone not being saved. In fact, "destruction" is an absolute PRE-REQUISITE to being saved.  Jesus came SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of saving those who are "destroyed."

The words: "destrouction," "perish" and "lost" all come from the very same ONE Greek word:  "apollumi."  In Matt. 10:28 where Jesus says to "fear Him Who is able to DESTROY both soul and body..." the word for destroy is "apollumi." In Matt. 18:24 where Jesus says that His Father is not will any any of these little ones should PERISH..." the word for perish is "apollumi."  In Matt. 15:24 where Jesus says that He was send to the LOST sheep of the house of Israel only" the word for lost is "apollumi."  Dstruction, perish, and lost, all come from the same one Greek word "apollumi."

Now then, with that said, what did Jesus say concerning all those who are "apollumi?"  Here is what He said: "For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which is APOLLUMI [lost]" (Matt. 18:11).

Now what was that argument you said you had that contradicts this Scriptural teaching?

God be with you,

Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1971.0.html --------

Dear Shane:
No, God is not "unfair."  You are still looking at the lake of fire as some kind of a dungion of torture in real fire. It is JUDGMENT, not solely punishment. And Jesus plainly has told us that it is according to the magnitude of one's crimes. "Many stripes versus few stripes."
 
We too go through the fire of God's spiritual judgment:  Jugement is upon the house of God NOW (I Pet. 4:17 and Heb. 12:29).  It isn't pleasant, but it is not total torture either.  There are two aspects of Judgment:  [1] We must be purged of our old carnal sinful attitudes, and [2] we must then grow spiritually by godly living and produce spiritual fruit (Gal. 5:22-25).
 
The Church only partially sees the need for these in those called in this life, but is totally blind to the fact that Judgment produces the same thing in the Resurrection to Judgment.  They think that "grace" is merely a noun that does it all for us rather than grace being a verb that does it all  IN us and THROUGH us (by the Spirit of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice on the cross). God is ABLE to make us holy and righteous through His work in us and He is likewise able to do the same for the rest of humanity in Judgment.  We blaspheme if we suggest that God either does not want to save humanity or that He is unable.
God be with you,
Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3643.0.html -----

 Dear David:

    One cannot understand the Scriptures if one does not follow the Scriptural instruction on HOW to understand the Scriptures. (Read my paper: "Twelves Rule to Understand God's Word"  http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm). Rev. 20:15 only says that those not found written in the Lamb's book of life are "cast INTO the lake of fire." It does not say they ever come out. But one cannot draw that conclusion seeing that based on that one Scripture several other laws of Interpretation have not been followed. Peter tells us that no Scripture is its OWN interpretation. Jesus and Paul teach us that TWO or more witnesses are needed to establish a truth. Jesus taught us that HIS WORD are SPIRIT--the whole book of Revelation is the "Revelation of JESUS CHRIST," etc., etc.

    There is only ONE other Scripture which describes: EVERY MAN'S WORK BEING JUDGED IN FIRE, and it is found in I Cor. 3:12-15 where we plainly read that those who enter this fire of judgment for their works, "SHALL BE SAVED..." (Verse 15).

    God be with you,

    Ray
---------------------------------------

1Co 3:12  Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--
v. 13  each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
v. 14  If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
v. 15  If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

p.s. What is the fire of judgment?  Heb 12:29  "For our God is a consuming fire."

« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 09:51:14 AM by Kat »
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PJNPSWISS

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2007, 03:52:40 PM »

Thank you for these text. I have never placed them as you have showed me. It does make sense. The biggest problem for me is that you use one verse compared to another. There are so many verses that in context of the rest of the Bible show that at judgement, the wicked will be destroyed.

I think that I need to study it out more.

 Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This seems to show you either believe in the begotten son or you are lost. Acts 4:12 only through the Christ can we come to the father. THe same as Jesus said. THat only through me can we go to the father.

I guess I need to look at it some more. Thank you and God Bless!

P.J.
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Dean Peterman

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2007, 04:58:41 PM »

Dear P.J.

I read your post on Bible Truths.com and thought your question was very profound and important.  I am having the same problem that you are.  I see so many verses in the Bible that lead me to think that some people will perish. 

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in HIm should not perish but have everlasting life."

If we examine this verse it does seem to be saying that some people will perish. 

I would be very interested to hear whatever insights you come up with in your studies.  I also plan to study this in much greater depth.

Sincerely,



Dean

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hillsbororiver

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2007, 05:08:51 PM »

Hello All,

Kat and Chris gave some very pertinent as well as in depth answers, knowing how I am in regard to gaining new insights and answers it is helpful to have the tools to search the deep things of the Lord One on one. We know the very most important thing is a humble spirit and diligence, E-Sword can help with the diligence part, only His Spirit can help you with the rest.

Destroy has a narrow definition in English, I would strongly suggest doing a word search (destroy) in Hebrew (OT) and Greek (NT) to see the root words that have been translated into "destroyed."

Here is a link to download E-Sword if you haven't already.

Happy treasure hunting!  ;)

His Peace to you,

Joe

http://www.e-sword.net/downloads.html
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PJNPSWISS

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2007, 05:23:19 PM »

Dear Joe,

As asked!

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

It seems to me that we could make our pick with the contexts of the verses:
Mat 10:28  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

It seems to me using the words that are given that it means the same thing as what it says. Am I wrong? It seems to be in contexts and we can pick even more that are in contexts.

God Bless!

P.J.
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Redbird

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2007, 05:37:58 PM »

Welcome to the forum PJ and Dean,

Maybe the following scripture will help your understanding;

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Peace to you ~ Lisa
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PJNPSWISS

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2007, 06:13:40 PM »

Dear Lisa,

I feel the same way! I would like it to be this way. Please do not misunderstand me. I love my Lord Jesus. I follow his teachings because I have learned that when I believe in him and what he taught I have the father. 2 John 9.

But I have to say that Jesus taught that some day the door will close. 10 virgins, or those who claimed to have done things in his name but he doesn't know them. There will be weeping and nashing of teath. These poor souls will be in darkness. In Revelations there will also be a time when the door will be closed and those that do not believe will be lost.

This I know is no fun for our Lord but that is how it seems in the context of the Bible. I mean if there will be weeping and nashing of teeth. I don't think this is God cleansing them with fire because I think they would be very happy and praising the Lord. We get to be in heaven.

but that all should come to repentance. That is what is interesting to me. That all should come to repentance. Why don't they? Because they don't want to. Or they choose not to. Well that is their choice. Because that is why I believe that we all have the choice. THat we choose to follow and Love the Lord is all that he want. This is so wonderful about our Lord.  Why else would he tell them repent because the kingdom of God is here. If we didn't have that choice then he would not have to say this. Or am I wrong?

God Bless!

P.J.
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Sorin

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2007, 06:17:16 PM »

Jhn 3:16 isn't difficult to understand; in fact it is quite clear.

"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in HIm should not perish but have everlasting Aionion life."


What he is saying here is clear, those that believe shall not perish. Now what does perish mean?

Rom 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death..."

Death and perish do not mean eternal torture in some Fabled Christian Hell. And John 3:16 is not saying that some will not [ever] believe and be lost forever. It is simply stating a fact that without Christ we perish.

Isaiah 45:23 "I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

Romans 14:11 "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

Phil 2:11 "And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."


So if every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; how does that not mean that all will be saved?

Read John 3:16 again "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whoever believes in HIm should not perish but have everlasting Aionion life."

So if every knee will bow, and every tongue confess, that means they, what? They believe in Him. It's just a matter of when. Some obviously believe in Him sooner, in this life. But even that is not up to them/us.


John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."



Romans 8:7  "For the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Hope this helps your understanding,

Sorin




« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 06:27:49 PM by Sorin »
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Kat

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2007, 06:21:13 PM »


The 'scriptures' are the truth of God, but they are a hidden mystery.

Col 1:25  of which I became a minister, according to the administration of God given to me for you, to fulfill the Word of God;
v. 26  the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

Do you think that the scripture are any less hidden today from those with blind eyes.  Only the indwelling Spirit of God can give a person knowledge of these hidden treasures.  Many of the translations are good, but have those few errors that people have built there whole doctrine around.  The errors that Ray point are not that difficult to understand once you have been shown them.  So why hasn't others down through the centuries revealed these truths?  Because they are blind.

John 12:40  "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."

As I looked at this scripture I realized if there were a hell, then God would be sending people there Himself, since we have no free will, because it is He who hardens there hearts.  And the church doesn't even try to explain these contradictions in what they teach.


mercy, peace, and love
Kat

« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 06:32:57 PM by Kat »
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Redbird

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2007, 06:31:30 PM »

Dear PJ,

Ya know, I see alot of weeping and nashing of teeth right here on earth!  Along with lost people who have no peace.....yet.  Being cleansed by God's fire can be very painful also, as many on this forum can attest to.  As Sorin pointed out with scripture, we do not choose God, he chooses us ~ in His time and according to His precious plan.

May you grow in your understanding,
Lisa
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PJNPSWISS

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2007, 06:45:06 PM »

Dear Kat,

The very point that I don't understand is that we do not have a free choice? When this is true then this whole life is a game and I don't have to follow Christ because I will be cleaned anyway in the end and then I will be in heaven.

There is no logic to this! I know what you are saying and I do not understand that part either. But I do know if this is all just a game and that we do not have a free will then how can we worship the Lord and why would he want our worship. We would all be puppets and that would be that.

Does that make any sense? We would all just say yes I follow Christ or no I don't. Then God would not be chasing us all through the Bible trying to get our attention. You seem to be seeing things that are not very logical at all. I have given my life to the Lord and I have repented and want to serve him and him alone. This as what has been spoken of and promised should give me his spirit. If not then I am lost and then I should just quit trying to get his attention and just do what I want. I will get to heaven anyways right?

This does not seem to be what Jesus taught or what the whole bible teaches. It says do unto other as you would want them to do to you. This is the whole law and the prophets. If we follow these ways we have Christ and he is living in us. This is the Truth of the whole Gospel! Or am I wrong again? But if it is that I do not have the free will to make this choice and to Love others and let Christ shine through me then God is just using us as toys and so lala. Next.

Why Did Jesus come then? Just as part of the game? Please help me to understand this?

God Bless!

P.J.
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Redbird

  • Guest
Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2007, 06:58:13 PM »

Oh boy, PJ,

This question of free will has been answered by Ray over and over again. I hope you find the time to study his work. I will ask you tho, is a rose responsible for its beauty while a weed chooses to be a weed??? I don't think so!  They are both created by God according to HIS DESIGN. :)

Peace to you, Lisa

« Last Edit: July 01, 2007, 07:01:00 PM by Redbird »
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bobf

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2007, 07:00:51 PM »

Dear Lisa,

I feel the same way! I would like it to be this way. Please do not misunderstand me. I love my Lord Jesus. I follow his teachings because I have learned that when I believe in him and what he taught I have the father. 2 John 9.

But I have to say that Jesus taught that some day the door will close. 10 virgins, or those who claimed to have done things in his name but he doesn't know them. There will be weeping and nashing of teath. These poor souls will be in darkness. In Revelations there will also be a time when the door will be closed and those that do not believe will be lost.

This I know is no fun for our Lord but that is how it seems in the context of the Bible. I mean if there will be weeping and nashing of teeth. I don't think this is God cleansing them with fire because I think they would be very happy and praising the Lord. We get to be in heaven.

but that all should come to repentance. That is what is interesting to me. That all should come to repentance. Why don't they? Because they don't want to. Or they choose not to. Well that is their choice. Because that is why I believe that we all have the choice. THat we choose to follow and Love the Lord is all that he want. This is so wonderful about our Lord.  Why else would he tell them repent because the kingdom of God is here. If we didn't have that choice then he would not have to say this. Or am I wrong?

God Bless!

P.J.

P.J.  Take a look at the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15).  He did not "believe in Christ" did he?  He lived in hs father's house (symbolizing being with God).  But then he chose to leave his Father's house, he sold his inheritance in pursuit of riotous living.  Like Esau, he traded his birthright for a bowl of stew.  He went through the wide gate that leads to destruction. Did he perish?  The parable says he was lost [apollumi] and dead.

Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost [apollumi], and is found.

But Jesus came to seek out and save those who are lost [apollumi].  He came to save sinners.

Luke 19:10  For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost [apollumi].

Only AFTER going through the wide gate did he return home and enter the narrow gate.  Yes, Christ is the only way to the Father, and yes we have to choose to follow Him in order to be saved.



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Sorin

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2007, 07:01:32 PM »

PJ,

You are hopelessly lost. You've not a clue as to even why Christ came and died on the cross. How about you try to stay within the Scriptures? Actually, what am I talking, you don't even believe The Scriptures. You think that you used your phantom free will and chose Christ all on your own, despite the fact that Jesus said no man can come to Him. Jhn 6:44

How can the carnal mind, that is enmity (deep seethed hatred) towards God, and is not only not subject to the Law Of God, but it is in fact not even able to be subject to the Law of God, how can that mind ever come to God, and obey God, and wish to follow God? Rom 8:7

Answer that one for me? The Scriptures already do, but I want to see your version. :p

Peace,

Sorin



 




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Craig

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2007, 07:03:06 PM »

PJ Rather than ask these questions here of people who are not teachers (that would be me) why don't you spend some time reading Ray's articles.  Especially the letters to Hagee and Kennedy and then the Lake of fire series, especially the Myth of Free will.

Then if you have questions on different points then ask here.  Free will is one of the most difficult truths to wrap your mind around.

It seems from your posts you need to take the time and prayer to read the articles on Rays site, don't get in a hurry and don't give up the first time around.  It took me 6 months of bible study and reading Rays teaching to finally get a handle on free will.  Free will is the heart of the beast, and he won't give it up easily.

Blessing
Craig
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PJNPSWISS

  • Guest
Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2007, 07:05:20 PM »

Well God Bless you all! I have to go to Bed! I am in Switzerland and I need my sleep! I hope to be able to discuss some more tomorrow.

Take care and again God Bless!

P.J. ;D
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bobf

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2007, 07:10:35 PM »

Dear Kat,

The very point that I don't understand is that we do not have a free choice? When this is true then this whole life is a game and I don't have to follow Christ because I will be cleaned anyway in the end and then I will be in heaven.

There is no logic to this! I know what you are saying and I do not understand that part either. But I do know if this is all just a game and that we do not have a free will then how can we worship the Lord and why would he want our worship. We would all be puppets and that would be that.

Does that make any sense? We would all just say yes I follow Christ or no I don't. Then God would not be chasing us all through the Bible trying to get our attention. You seem to be seeing things that are not very logical at all. I have given my life to the Lord and I have repented and want to serve him and him alone. This as what has been spoken of and promised should give me his spirit. If not then I am lost and then I should just quit trying to get his attention and just do what I want. I will get to heaven anyways right?

This does not seem to be what Jesus taught or what the whole bible teaches. It says do unto other as you would want them to do to you. This is the whole law and the prophets. If we follow these ways we have Christ and he is living in us. This is the Truth of the whole Gospel! Or am I wrong again? But if it is that I do not have the free will to make this choice and to Love others and let Christ shine through me then God is just using us as toys and so lala. Next.

Why Did Jesus come then? Just as part of the game? Please help me to understand this?

God Bless!

P.J.

P.J.  you make a choice but your choice is not FREE from divine influence.  If because of your FREE choice, you chose God - then God did not need to draw (actually means drag) you to Him.  Read Psalm 107 about the redeemed of the Lord.  They did not come FREELY.  They were GATHERED by God.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.




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Falconn003

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Re: I am new here and I have a few questions!
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2007, 07:12:10 PM »

Well well

That was RUDE, open a discussion then co-out with i have to go to bed.

What's next "i did not pay my internet bill, cuase i had to give my 10% to in tiths......" go figure  ::) ::)

Rodger
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