Patience & Perserverence

[hillsbororiver]

Over the last couple of years I have seen an unmistakable cycle in more than a few new members where they come in full of enthusiasm because one or two of the articles on Bible truths really hit them between the eyes and they found nuggets of truth that truly inspired them to seek out more.

Unfortunately this is where diligence gave way to impatience, the understandable desire to "know and understand everything now!"

God does not work that way.

Sometimes newer members will be put off by another member when they are told to read the articles, then read them again, check the scriptural witnesses and pray for understanding. Instead of the "slow and steady" road to knowledge many (understandably) seek the "fast track" by continually asking questions of the membership that are thoroughly addressed in the articles on Bible Truths.

Sometimes feelings are hurt because the new member feels they have been slighted and been dealt with in a callous and impatient fashion, my question to them would be "why are you not patiently reading, verifying scripture and praying for understanding?" If after a diligent effort there are still questions these questions will be dealt with in a patient and edifying manner but it is too easy to see when someone asks things that are covered extensively in Ray's papers that little to no effort has been made to read through them thoroughly.

In my own experience I felt that before I began asking pointed questions I read everything on the site to at least be familiar with the premises even if my understanding of the points were incomplete. If someone seeks to be directed to a particular topic and ask where on the site they can find it there is no doubt many will enthusiastically respond to this request.

We all need faith and patience (and more) when seeking His treasures, there is no fast track to wisdom, remember it is a steady step by step progression to spiritual maturity.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Kat]

Hi Joe,

I know what you mean, there are so many that come through here.  I really think this parable from Jesus applies to what is happening right here.

Mat 13:3  And He spoke many things to them in parables, saying, Behold, the sower went out to sow.
v. 4  And as he sowed, some seeds fell by the wayside, and the birds came and devoured them.
v. 5  Some fell on stony places, where they did not have much earth. And they sprang up immediately, because they had no deepness of earth.
v. 6  And the sun rising, they were scorched, and because they had no root, they withered away.
v. 7  And some fell among thorns. And the thorns sprung up and choked them.
v. 8  And some fell on the good ground and yielded fruit, indeed one a hundredfold, and one sixty, and one thirty.
v. 9  He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Yes Kat!

These are very appropriate verses, this same parable is in Luke and if we read a little further past where the disciples ask what this parable means, we have this;

Luk 8:10  And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see and hearing they might not understand.

Luk 8:11  Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Luk 8:12  Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Luk 8:13  They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe and in time of temptation fall away.

Luk 8:14  And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life and bring no fruit to perfection.

Luk 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it and bring forth fruit with patience.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[skydreamers]

In your patience possess ye your souls.
Luke 21:19

For whatever things were written before were written for our learning, so that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope. And may the God of patience and consolation grant you to be like minded toward one another according to Christ Jesus,
Romans 15:4-5

...knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.
James 1:3-4


But also in this very thing, bringing in all diligence, filling out your faith with virtue, and with virtue, knowledge; and with knowledge self-control, and with self-control, patience, and with patience, godliness, and with godliness, brotherly kindness, and with brotherly kindness, love...
2 Peter 1:5-7

[gmik]

All good points!

Seems tho that everytime a newbie introduces himself we all welcome and actually say>>>.Ask questions.  Then when they ask questions we don't wan't to answer? I don't get that.  If they are excited-like we all were-they will want to know everything.

I do agree about reading the website, tho.  All the answers are there so what are we talking about here???

My only frustrations w/ newbies is once they do introduce themselves so many never get back on.  What happened to them?  Well, Carol, for one, mentioned intimidation.
I hope all the readers/lurkers out there feel they can come on and fellowship/learn w/ us. please don't feel intimidated.

Also, just like in a family not everyone sees eye-to-eye.  Don't throw the forum out just cuz you don't agree w/ one or two.

If you don't like a topic, don't read it.  If you see a poster you don't agree w/ don't read it, or just move along, or gloss over that persons post. Thats for oldies too, not just newbies. Oldies don't get on topics you are tired of or have written about before.

DON'T THROW THE BABY OUT W/ THE BATH WATER.

Love One Another.

We have had a lot of people on the forum lately.  We have had a lot of newbies join.  Just like satan, to get in the mix, stir it up, and try to derail us.

IMHO

[LittleBear]

Dear Gena,

You are a very wise woman! I love you.

I didn't realize there WAS a forum for a couple of years when I was reading Ray's material, so the only one I turned to was God with my questions and doubts and turmoil.

I agree with you Joe, new people need to read the material first and this takes time, lots of time. And lots of prayer with the reading. It is God that gives the understanding.

Love,

Ursula

[gmik]

Bless your heart Ursula.  That was so sweet!

I've read your posts so I know that you too, dear little bear, are wise indeed!  My love back to you.

(sorry guys! )

[YellowStone]

Great Thread Joe and wonderful comments by all

If I may I would very much like to comment on the difference between finding something and understanding it. The truth that Ray has on his site is no different than the truth I have in my many bibles; sure, he explains it a little better but does not change it.

How many here have read something many times before WHAM!!!! the true meaning whacks one on the side of the head as one stares in amazement. "Where did that come from!!!!"

Truly, I have come to the realization that it matters little if a "newby" has the God given mindest to seek all truth diligently, or not. This is betwen God and this person. What matters most is not how they act around us, but how we act around them.

I was told so many times during my "church" life that my questions should not be asked. Which of course told me that they did NOT have the answers. My questons were legitimate. I'm not so sure telling a newby to go read Ray's writings is not so different. If we found someone injured on the side of the road, would we stop only long enough to tell them that there is an ER just down the road; that all the help they need can befound there.

Really? what if they are not strong enough to get there and die. What help was telling them about the ER then. Is this not the same as the newby seeking truth? Are we to assume that they have the strength and fortitude to find it themselves, even if we tell them where to look?

Anyone who has ever worked in an ER will know very well that the sick and injured will often lash out at who ever is closest; yet the staff never walk away. Rather, they simply turn the other cheek and continue adminstrating wahtever is needed. We must expect the same reaction on this forum; short tempers, bad language, impatience, etc. Likewise we must always be ready to calm the situation, to level the playing field and demonstrate always the Spirit of Truth by the fruits of our words and actions.

We must never forget that, that every opprtunity (that is every moment) given to us should be one to show that we are patient and willing to help in anyway we can. Is this not why the Spirit is given?

I think so.

Love to all,
Darren

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Darren,

Your point is well taken and in regard to some of the responses I have read I must think that we as members have failed some of the newer members because we have been inconsistent in the way we deal with some of the questions at different times.

I don't feel I need to quote the Lord's admonishment to seek Him above all things, which includes searching His Word diligently, this is repeated over and over through scripture.

My point is when questions are raised by folks and it is clearly dealt with in an article or even an email we should point in that direction first, it has happened frequently enough to even frustrate me at times when I read over and over the same questions such as;

So how can we not have free will, so we are robots then? Somebody please explain this.

How can there not be a trinity when the bible says there is?

Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven so how can you believe there is no hell?

How can we not tithe when the bible says we are robbing God if we don't?

THESE QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED IN THE PAPERS!

Sometimes being nice and compliant is not doing anyone any good and really we are rewarding an impatient spirit, slow down, take a deep breath, relax, pray in a humble spirit and READ!

If we don't do this consistantly, then what?

Then come the debates, the strife and the membership at odds because an answer may be perceived as curt, abrupt, unloving, etc. More often than not the new person asking the questions, who would not take the time to read the articles in the first place is gone after a few days but the animosity, distrust and division remains in the Forum, sometimes inspiring others to either leave or to not participate as often eventually drifting away.

There must be an honest effort by both the new and the more established members, newbies please read the articles, especially the ones that speak to your questions, if you cannot find them ask for directions. Older members should comply politely to these requests and fight the temptation to teach on their own, I hope I don't offend anyone but Ray explains these things better than any of us, I have seen some tension arise in all too many of the threads that veer away from the articles and are reasoned from our own understanding.

This site was established to discuss the writings of Ray and not as another christian debate society where we invite anyone with an agenda and a keyboard to participate and yank our strings, some do come in with sincere questions not looking for strife and they should not be upset or feel rejected when pointed to an article rather than our synopsis of an article.

There have been others not so sincere who's only goal is to divide that is where discernment comes in, the moderators have become more sensitive to the warning signs through diligence and prayer, we do not enjoy having to delete threads, give warnings or ban anyone, but when it is necessary it will be done.

The question is asked up front, "have you read the articles?" So it should come as no surprise to anyone. Now with all that being said when someone who has read and studied the material comes back with questions related to a specific point of an article we should patiently indulge our brethren to the best of our ability.

Patience and perserverence should be practiced by all, new members there is no fast track to knowledge and understanding, older members be an example of a patient spirit helping guide our brethren to a better knowledge of our Lord and His plan and purpose for His creation.

His Peace and Wisdom to you all,

Joe

[rk12201960]

Amen Joe.

we need a base or starting point. Its always been there as you have pointed out to us again.
Rays letters are why we are here. We should be in agreement with this as a basic understanding. From this we can build on as instructed by God.

Thanks for the reminder brother.

Randy.

[hillsbororiver]

You are welcome Randy.

I want to thank you for receiving this in the spirit it was given.

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe

[carol70]

I was told so many times during my "church" life that my questions should not be asked. Which of course told me that they did NOT have the answers. My questons were legitimate. I'm not so sure telling a newby to go read Ray's writings is not so different. If we found someone injured on the side of the road, would we stop only long enough to tell them that there is an ER just down the road; that all the help they need can befound there.

I don't see it in quite the same way.  As a lot of us have mentioned, we are not all teachers and since Ray explains things so well, I think it's often better to send the newbie directly to the source (or the source's messenger, if you prefer) instead of trying to figure out a different way of saying what he has already stated so eloquently.

That's just my take on things.

[Falconn003]

Joe and Darren

You 2 posted it so well, only thing i can add to that is a resounding AMEN and thnk you for this guidance.

God bless
Rodger

[UncleBeau]

I was told so many times during my "church" life that my questions should not be asked. Which of course told me that they did NOT have the answers. My questons were legitimate. I'm not so sure telling a newbie to go read Ray's writings is not so different. If we found someone injured on the side of the road, would we stop only long enough to tell them that there is an ER just down the road; that all the help they need can be found there.

I don't see it in quite the same way.  As a lot of us have mentioned, we are not all teachers and since Ray explains things so well, I think it's often better to send the newbie directly to the source (or the source's messenger, if you prefer) instead of trying to figure out a different way of saying what he has already stated so eloquently.

That's just my take on things.

Keep in mind that God shows us the answers to our question. However, Ray is a good teacher and he taught ME to "PAY ATTENTION TO THE WORDS!". Tell the Newbies exactly where to go and if your can't, start reading. There's things that Ray hasn't touched on yet and even after reading all of Rays letters, they still might have questions. Rather than giving them answers, show them how to get them. Kind of like, "teach him how to fish". I would want everyone to know that BT gives truth through scripture, not "Ray-ology" ha ha.

[jER]

"Patience is a companion to wisdom."

Thanks Joe for the reminder!
And, may we continue understanding.

- jER

[hillsbororiver]

Thanks Carol, Rodger, Beau & jER for your input, it is true we should always be on guard, putting on the "whole armor of God" in all our interactions with others.

I know myself the second I take my eyes off of Him I am prone to fall, quickly and hard. I can find my thoughts entwined in the weeds of the old carnal man who springs to life immediately when given the opportunity.

Ephesians 6

10Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

This narrow path seems more like a tightrope at times! 

His Peace to you,

Joe

[Bradigans]

Great Thread Joe and wonderful comments by all

If I may I would very much like to comment on the difference between finding something and understanding it. The truth that Ray has on his site is no different than the truth I have in my many bibles; sure, he explains it a little better but does not change it.

How many here have read something many times before WHAM!!!! the true meaning whacks one on the side of the head as one stares in amazement. "Where did that come from!!!!"

Truly, I have come to the realization that it matters little if a "newby" has the God given mindest to seek all truth diligently, or not. This is betwen God and this person. What matters most is not how they act around us, but how we act around them.

I was told so many times during my "church" life that my questions should not be asked. Which of course told me that they did NOT have the answers. My questons were legitimate. I'm not so sure telling a newby to go read Ray's writings is not so different. If we found someone injured on the side of the road, would we stop only long enough to tell them that there is an ER just down the road; that all the help they need can befound there.

Really? what if they are not strong enough to get there and die. What help was telling them about the ER then. Is this not the same as the newby seeking truth? Are we to assume that they have the strength and fortitude to find it themselves, even if we tell them where to look?

Anyone who has ever worked in an ER will know very well that the sick and injured will often lash out at who ever is closest; yet the staff never walk away. Rather, they simply turn the other cheek and continue adminstrating wahtever is needed. We must expect the same reaction on this forum; short tempers, bad language, impatience, etc. Likewise we must always be ready to calm the situation, to level the playing field and demonstrate always the Spirit of Truth by the fruits of our words and actions.

We must never forget that, that every opprtunity (that is every moment) given to us should be one to show that we are patient and willing to help in anyway we can. Is this not why the Spirit is given?

I think so.

Love to all,
Darren

I have got to say amen to what you said, brother. This is not an assembly. Everyone's plight, circumstance, and condition is different. Folks around here have got to be objective.

[YellowStone]

Hi Joe, I must be working to hard, I forgot all about what I wrote in this thread.

You wrote in part:

My point is when questions are raised by folks and it is clearly dealt with in an article or even an email we should point in that direction first, it has happened frequently enough to even frustrate me at times when I read over and over the same questions such as;

So how can we not have free will, so we are robots then? Somebody please explain this.

How can there not be a trinity when the bible says there is?

Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven so how can you believe there is no hell?

How can we not tithe when the bible says we are robbing God if we don't?

THESE QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED IN THE PAPERS!

Sometimes being nice and compliant is not doing anyone any good and really we are rewarding an impatient spirit, slow down, take a deep breath, relax, pray in a humble spirit and READ!

Joe, my brother and friend, this is the point I was trying to make. Do the nurses, doctors and support staff in the ER ever get frustrated because the 600th broken arm just camr through the door, the 300th heart attack or the 14,000th car accident victim. Enough is enough, right!!! WRONG 

Every patient is a new case, to the best of their ability, every paient is given respect and courteous treatment; yet do they have the spirit and know of its fruits? Likely not, yet they respect human dignity and their professionalism is rarely exceeded by anyone or group.

You pose some very simple questions, but they are so ONLY because God has given you and all here who understand the answer, the ability to do so. Expecting such as these to search out the answers for themselves is like expecting my garbage collector to research 'Quantum Mechanics.' Why, his God given ignorance on this subject (I only assume so) is reason enough to never go any futher. Why then should we even consider the idea that a detractor or even someone remotely looking for truth will continue on their own?

We should treat every newbie, regardless of the venom or niceties coming out of their mouth exactly the same (remember the ER nurses) and nurture them as if their life depends on it. God bought them here did he not?

Paul knew that not all could or would be able to understand cold hard truth from the beginning.

1Cr 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.  

I will repost a statement I made in my original post, I still stand by it.

Truly, I have come to the realization that it matters little if a "newby" has the God given mindest to seek all truth diligently, or not. This is betwen God and this person. What matters most is not how they act around us, but how we act around them.

Love in Christ,
Darren

[musicman]

Yes, they should be directed to Ray's papers.  But it is the job of everybody who has spiritual eyes to answer every question presented to them if they can.  Often, just saying it in different ways helps retards like me finally understand a concept.  But if somebody asks me to explain why we don't have a free will or how the Lake of Fire is a good thing, I will tell them every thing that I can because I know that I have some understanding (thanks to Ray).  However, if they ask me something which is over my spiritual head but I remember Ray saying something about it, I will send them to the site.  That is usually a futile assignment to give to a churchian so it's usually gonna be up to me.  The same gos with this forum.  Not everybody has the patience to search Ray's papers here.  Some do, but aren't confident that they will be using their time wisely.  If it can be answered, just give the best answer possible, regardless of how redundant the question might be.  And yes, I know we (people like me) shouldn't go out and try to set the world straight because the world will eat us alive.

[Bamabee]

Hi all,

April here with her two cents worth.  First of all, I would like to respond to Gmik (howdy BTW).  It must be frustrating to see the newbies introduce themselves, but not participate.  As a newbie myself, I can say that most of my time is spent scanning the posts and orienting myself to who is out there.  I don't think it is a good idea to just start mixing it up with everyone because there are some nasties in here.  I only have so much time to spend here and I want to put it to good use.  So, maybe there are just a bunch of lurkers.

Secondly, to Joe's post (howzit goin).  I know that it must get insanely repetitive to hear the same ole, same ole.  But, I do think that some people are doing that to get their feet wet.  Otherwise, how are they going to join in the discusion?  They don't know much.  For some like me, this is like being an orphan and finding at 34 that I have a family and we have so much in common.   My natural reaction is to ask question after question.  I know that can be annoying, but hey, at least it is a foot in the door.  And I have to say, I love you guys, but you don't know where everyone is in their walk and abilities.  I am an avid reader and have been since I was a kid.  I also have a learning disability.  So, I can read the material no problem, but sometimes have a problem with recall or mental organization.  If I don't understand a point and want to ask someone for clarification, it can become maddening to hear "go read the papers"  AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!  I read them, okay!  But, I hate to lay this on you, I think this is one of the cases where we are to bare one anothers burdens.  Do I need to tell you my personal situation and background to get an answer to a question?  And what about my husband, he is one of the smartest people I know, but he is not a reader.  To ask him to read this material would be like asking me to climb Mt Everest.  He is interested in the material, but this out of his reach.  I read some to him and talk about principles.  What if he came on the forum?  That won't likely happen, because I won't encourage him to do so.  Why would I?  So someone can post a link to a paper in a reply.  Thanks for nothing, pal.  Now he's really felt the love.  I don't want to sound unappreciative of the older members.  They contribute so much.  I'm just saying that is how I would feel.  I apologize if I've been too blunt, but I've noticed that not to many people pull punches around here.