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[excellenttrader]

Hey Guys,

I need your help in understanding Proverbs 3:9-10:

     9 Honor the LORD with your wealth,
       with the firstfruits of all your crops;

    10 then your barns will be filled to overflowing,
       and your vats will brim over with new wine.

Here's why...The other day I went, at the request of my mother, to a friend's house for a Bible study.  The leader of the study, Tim, is a friend of mine that I've known for about 10 years.  In fact, he used to be my Sunday school teacher, at my old church.  Great guy, I've always really liked him.  Anyway, he's holding this Bible study in an effort to start a new church.  The old church that we all went to has been losing a lot of people over the last year or so (I had actually already left by this point, after having found BT about 2 years ago).  The politics and the obvious greed of the pastor and staff have been scaring people away.   

A part of Tim's background is financial management and planning.  He's been providing Christian based financial counseling for years in an effort to help those that are overwhelmed by their finances and to try and help them do it in a Christian way.  So, with that background Tim said he'd make the first study about how to manage our finances Biblically. 

I was certain that at some point he would talk about tithing.  And he did.  I thought I'd be fairly well prepared and be able to see how he was misusing a certain passage after having recently read Ray's paper on tithing.  But Tim caught me off guard by validating tithing with the section of Proverbs listed above.  I went back afterwards and reread the tithing article by Ray and I've looked in the forums to try and find an answer to just how firstfruits should be understood here in this passage and not how it was used by Tim at this Bible study.  Unfortunately I couldn't find anything specific to really answer it for me. 

When Tim commented on verse 9 he said something along the lines of "The firstfruits is the first 10% of what we make, or the tithe.  And that is something that we should always give first and foremost before we do anything else with our money.  And when we do, we will get the blessing mentioned in verse 10." 

One comment I found made by Ray is that the word firstfruits is mentioned 23? times in the OT and that in each case, its talking about firstfruits and not the tithe.

So, could someone please help me understand the firstfuits as its used here.  Whether its tithe or firstfruits, this passage sure makes it sound like we should be giving the first portion of our wealth or money to God and then He'll bless us with properity afterwards.  But, based on Ray's paper, I'm pretty sure that's not really what it means.

Also, I'm not looking to go back to Tim and tell him how he's wrong or get in an argument with my mother who also thinks the same way as Tim.  I simply wanted to better understand what the scriptures have to say about it.

In addition to any comments, if anyone knows of a forum discussion or part of Ray's writings that might help to answer this, I'd appreciate the link to it.

Thanks,
Mike

[gmik]

Hi Mike. 

How did crops turn into money??? Tithing was always agriculture. Never money.  There has got to be a link on tithing. Go to the link for all Ray's e mails, then scroll down till ya find tithing and start reading.  It does take time. (or maybe KaT will find it )

A friend of ours was afraid for us...OH, you will start having $$$ problems if you stop tithing. If you don't give it to God then satan will just take it away!!!   Yes, that is what they said and I am sure they believe that.

They don't get that we are still to be GIVERS.

Anyway, I didn't answer your Q but I hope some of our teachers will.  That is def. not my role on the forum.

[hillsbororiver]

Of course Ray addresses this very well and Gena you made an excellent point about money not being a tithable commodity, here is a bit of Ray's "Tithing is Unscriptural" paper;

 MONEY AND THE BELIEVER

There is not one example of anyone tithing MONEY to anyone in the entirety of the Bible! The only reference to "money" with regards to tithing has absolutely nothing to do with paying tithes ON money. It is found in Deut. 14:24-26, which we shall now read in it’s entirety:

"And if the way be too long for thee [to the place where God placed His name to be worshipped, especially during the fall feast harvest of tabernacles] so that you are not able to carry it [the tithe of their farm produce] or if the place be too far from you, which the Lord your God shall choose to set His name there, when the Lord your God has blessed you: Then shall you turn it [the tithe of their farm produce] into money, and bind up the money in your hand, and shall go unto the place which the Lord your God shall choose: And you shall bestow that money [to the preachers? to the church? NO…] …for whatsoever thy soul lusts after [Heb: ‘for whatsoever your heart desires’], for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever your soul desires: and you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you, and your household."

Farm products could be sold and turned into money when long travel was necessary. But at the destination where God placed His name, the money was spent on food for the Levite, stranger, fatherless, poor, etc. It was not presented to the Levites as a monetary gift.

Here is an easy to understand Scripture explaining what the purpose of the tithe was:

"And the Levite, (because he has no part nor inheritance with you), and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within your gates, shall come, and shall EAT [food from the land] and be satisfied; that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do" (Deut. 14:29).

The Church would prefer you not know the following:

The tradesmen who made the baskets for harvesting, did not tithe.

The cobblers, who made the shoes for the servants of the field, did not tithe.

The carpenters, who made the wagons used for harvesting the fields, did not tithe.

The potters, who made the jugs for carrying water to the servants in the fields, did not tithe.

The women, who made the garments for the field-workers, did not tithe.

And certainly, the servants who worked in the fields for wages, did not tithe.

Here are the simple facts regarding the Biblical teaching of tithing:

ONLY LANDOWNERS TITHED

ONLY PRODUCTS OF THE LAND WERE TITHED

ONLY LEVITES COULD RECEIVE THE TITHES

TITHING WAS A LAW OF MOSES

CHRISTIANS ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES!

Does anyone have a Scripture that contradicts what I have just said?

By the way, Jesus Christ was a carpenter by trade, and as such, JESUS DID NOT TITHE!

http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html

And we all know there is no Temple or Levitical priesthood serving this Old Covenant Temple, it has been destroyed and replaced with a better Covenant. Our Lord and Saviour.

[gmik]

Great Joe.  Thanks!

[skydreamers]

Hi Mike,

I'm surely not qualified to answer your questions, but may I just give you what came to me as I was thinking of your question?  I read it this morning, and didn't answer because I'm not confident that my answer would be right.  But it's been nagging me all day (for some bizarre reason) so I'll just throw it out there and see what everybody thinks.

When Tim commented on verse 9 he said something along the lines of "The firstfruits is the first 10% of what we make, or the tithe.  And that is something that we should always give first and foremost before we do anything else with our money.  And when we do, we will get the blessing mentioned in verse 10."

First of all I'm not seeing how your friend is equating "firstfruits" with a 10% tithe...did he have a second scriptural witness?  And as Gena rightly pointed out, tithing never had anything to do with money, which Ray explains thoroughly in his paper.

Beyond that, what I see in these verses is yet another wonderful promise of what God will do for all of humanity.  Jesus is pre-eminently the firstfruits, then his Elect are also firstfruits...God the Father is the farmer.....

You shall keep the Feast of Harvest, of the firstfruits of your labor, of what you sow in the field. You shall keep the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in from the field the fruit of your labor.
Exodus 23:16

Jesus and the firstfruits (the Elect) are and will be laboring in the field....and at the end, they will gather in the fruit of their labors...which will be....

"barns filled with plenty and vats bursting with new wine..."


I'm thinking this may have something to do with the millenium, or the period when everyone will learn the truth about God....His spirit and His truth will be available to all.

The LORD of hosts will protect them, and they shall devour, and tread down the sling stones, and they shall drink and roar as if drunk with wine, and be full like a bowl, drenched like the corners of the altar. On that day the LORD their God will save them, as the flock of his people; for like the jewels of a crown they shall shine on his land. For how great is his goodness, and how great his beauty! Grain shall make the young men flourish, and new wine the young women.
Zechariah 9:15-17

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
Jeremiah 31:33-34

As I see it, He is doing this for the Elect now, and for the rest in the next age.

There is nothing physical we  give to God that will truly honor him, for what He is ultimately fashioning in us is to give to him our whole hearts and minds:

For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
Psalms 51:16-17

How many people in the church are faithfully giving their 10% but do not have a broken and contrite heart??  So what good are all those tithes?  Does God really need their money? 

I'm thinking those verses in Proverbs have more to do with what God is doing for humanity, than what we can or should supposedly do for Him.  The blessings come from the fruit He is producing in us...spiritual fruit, spiritual blessings.  This is what's more important.......if you focus on the physical as these tithers insist on doing, they will miss the spiritual meaning behind.  That's just what I think. 

I think this would be a good question to e-mail Ray directly about, as I'm quite confident he can nail this one down for you.

May God open our understanding to see His truths,

Peace to you,
Diana

[hillsbororiver]

You are welcome Gena!

I was wondering if any of these tithing old time gospel type churches stone to death adulterers, if not why not?

Just wondering why some Old Covenant laws are in place and not others, why in fact do they not keep the 7th Day (Saturday) as their Sabbath with all the restrictions on labor and beginning on Friday night until sundown on Saturday.

Inconsistancies galore!

The real irony is that money was never tithed in the Temple!

Babylon is confusion.

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Diana,

Expanding on a point you made here is more refutation of this "firstfruits" heresy.

Leviticus 27:30-33, "And all the TITHE of the LAND, whether of the SEED of the land, or of the FRUIT, of the tree, is the Lord’s: it is holy unto the Lord. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the TITHE of the HERD, or of the FLOCK, even of whatsoever passes under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it..."

We learn a great deal about tithing in this section of Scripture:

The tithe comes from the "land," not the air or the sea. Fishermen were not required to tithe fish.
It was the "seed" or agricultural products from the fields that was holy to God and tithable.
Products from "trees" were to be tithed. This not only included the fruit, but oils, etc.
Of "herds or flocks" it was the "tenth" that passed under the rod that was holy and dedicated to God.
Here is exposed another lie of modern clergymen. It was not the first tenth, but rather the tenth tenth that belonged to God, contrary to every minister I have ever heard, who insists that the first tenth always belongs to God. Unscriptural. Untrue. Read your bible--it’s the tenth one of a herd that belongs to God.

Another interesting point is this. If a herdsman had but nine cattle, he didn’t tithe his cattle at all! Also notice that God did not even require the best of the cattle, just the tenth one to pass under the rod even if it was the runtiest of them all. Remember, we are talking about tithing and not sacrificing (animals for sacrifice always had to be without blemish).

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

I checked the Hebrew in Proverbs 3:9 and found something you may find interesting;

Pro 3:9  Honor the LORD with thy substance and with the firstfruits4480, of all thine increase:

 H4480
מנּי    מנּי    מן
min  minnîy  minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.

In other OT references to firstfruits we have a closer match from the Hebrew to English translation, possibly a little translater rendering of this word to fit an ideology?

H1061
בּכּוּר
bikkûr
bik-koor'
From H1069; the first fruits of the crop: - first fruit (-ripe [figuratively), hasty fruit.


H7225
ראשׁית
rê'shîyth
ray-sheeth'
From the same as H7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.

Also there is no mention of tithe, tithing or tithes in this Chapter of Proverbs or in the entire Book of Proverbs, I found this to be very interesting.

His Peace to you,

Joe

[excellenttrader]

Excellent input.  Lots of details for me to study over already.  I really appreciate it.  After just having read Ray's tithing paper before this bible study and rereading it again after this Bible study I was confident that Tim was wrong about trying to use it to validate tithing with this passage.  Since he just made an immediate connection, and didn't elaborate or use any other verses along with it, I figured maybe there was more to the word firstfruits than I knew about or could find in Ray's paper.  I was thinking maybe other denominations of the church, besides the ones I've attended over the years, used/believed the two words to be essentially the same thing...or there was some other church belief I wasn't aware of.

You guys are so right about the inconsistencies and the contradictions in the church.  A part of how God pulled me out of the church was by Him starting to show me some of these inconsistencies...and then getting lame answers when I asked others in the church, that I respected at the time, as being "Strong in the Word."  LOL, or not:)

I'm definitely not looking for a debate, with Tim or my mother or anyone else.  I'm simply looking to learn and gain understanding.

Thanks again,
Mike

[Falconn003]

excellenttrader

Good gor you , on your understanding.

Thank our Father for your enlightenment, as you grow more in Spirit.

Rodger

[robtjr30]

Yes I have heard the Firstfruits of the Tithes was Fruits and so on read it is there in any bible.
Also the Offering Tithes was Animals read it it is there.
Now I have heard of Seed being a sort of Tithe this is not Money but it is taught as so to Steal and Rob Money from church peoples.

Any religious person who teaches Tithing must first put You or Us under the Moses Law and also must say we are Israel also.

Most churches use this to get rich, but not all do.Paul never kept any Money Given to him note if you read about anything read about Giving
it is the truth more than Tithing!
Giving requires no 10% of your money. Not even I can give 10% of each paycheck to any church. If any person was to do so thety be broke unless they where Rich. You couldn't pay your bills or afford to buy food.
I'm tired of the Lies saying you are Robbing God of God's Money(Malachi 3:8-12). John Hagee says on in a few of his sermons,"I won't pray with someone about Tithing or Close my eyes in the presance of a Thief." So go to John Hagee and call him a Liar if he calls you a Thief.

Read all about Tithing then if a Pastor or Sunday School Teacher teaches this and says it is Money and not teach about what the verses are really about is just trying to get you to give the church 10% by robbing you and not God. I could go on and on about this Tithing Lie but Ray already has done it so read his post about it.

[jbbaab44]

So, could someone please help me understand the firstfuits as its used here.  Whether its tithe or firstfruits, this passage sure makes it sound like we should be giving the first portion of our wealth or money to God and then He'll bless us with properity afterwards.  But, based on Ray's paper, I'm pretty sure that's not really what it means.

In my eyes there's no doubt that God deserves the best and poorest possessions we have because he owns it all anyways. There is absolutely no correlation  between first fruits and tithing. For instance, when God asked for the first born of Israel's children and first born of their flock, he couldn't ask for 10% of their child.

[seminole]

How does a crop turn into money? You sell the crop. You have to take the crop reference in the historical context of that time. That was how people made a living. As for tithing, offering, giving, whatever you want to call it. I don't do any of that because somebody is making me or telling me to. I do it because I have a desire in my heart to do it. I don't look for thanks and don't care what anybody may or may not think about my personel decision. If you are giving to receive something that is the wrong spirit to have in giving.

[Craig]

As for tithing, offering, giving, whatever you want to call it.

No lets pay attention to the words.  Is it tithing or giving?  There is a difference and that difference is key. 

Craig

[seminole]

I believe the heart is the key. You know, what's the motive?

[Craig]

I believe the heart is the key. You know, what's the motive?

I agree 100%, so lets not mix words around.  Should a church require a person to give and curse them if thy don't and call it tithing.  I wonder what the hearts of these givers are?

Tithing and giving are two separate things.

So when you lump them together it makes them appear to have the same meaning, and that is not truth.

Craig

[seminole]

Peace Craig, I am not that good with words. Nobody should curse anyone if they don't give. I personally don't think any person, organization has the right to demand people give money. Too bad the I.R.s. does not believe that too! The Bible talks about not letting your right hand know what your left is doing. That means it is private right?
I'll tell you a little something if you got time. One Sunday morning I was getting ready to go to church. I am not a morning person so it takes me a while to open both my eyes. I was mindlessly flipping t.v. channels and came to this local church program. I will not lie to you, I stopped there and watched. They were doing the speaking in tongues and healings . I am not too familiar withthat stuff so I was curious. At te end of the program they gave this number to call if you needed prayer and they also told about an elderly couple both with cancer who needed help. I called the people and found out they couldn't even get their medicine. They didn't have any food and their power was about to be turned out. I packed up a couple of boxes of foodand took to them. I stayed and helped them out a little that morning. When the pharmacy opened I went down there and paid for their medicine for a couple of months and ask the drugstore not to tell them anything but that it was covered. Where they lived the drugstore delivered to their house. i didn't want anyone to know what I did. You got to respect people's pride. Sometimes that is all they have left. I checked on them from time to time till they died. they had kids that lived close by but they wouldn't do for them.
My heart told me to do this. I take that as the Holy Spirit leading me so I acted on it. Was it better to help them or give the money I spent to a church? I couldn't do  both. I am far from wealthy and most times barely make ends meet. I know churches have power bills and stuff like we all do but God took care of it. To me, that was worship. My old self would have just bought drugs and booze with the money but I felt I did what God wanted me to do. There was a reason I became curious about that church service on the t.v. and I think those people were the reason. I don't know all the right words, Greek, Hebrew to write but I know what is in my heart. i do read my Bible and understand the best I can. I am not somebody who follows what other people tell me to believe. It has cost me some but I don't think I am missing much.
Seminole

[Craig]

That my friend is what giving is and God lead you to what you needed to do.  If a preacher told you to "give" 10% of your income to him and he would help the people out, would you have felt the same?

Again, always pray for understanding and the truth, and that God will use you for His goodness.

Blessings
Craig

[seminole]

Again I got to say thanks to you Craig for the encouragement. I got the blessing of getting to know these 2 people who taught me so much just by their faith. I have always believed that if something is put in my path or if a situation is put before me, it is my responsibility to step up and do rather than telling somebody else to go and help. Those people told me the first time I went that they had been praying that God would send help. They saw me as answer to their prayer! Me! sorry old me! Hard to believe that God would use somebody like me isn't it? It was hard for me to believe anyway. You are right, Craig. That was giving.
Seminole

[skydreamers]

Hi Nole,

That was a beautiful thing that you did!  Bless your heart.

Peace,
Diana