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Proverbs 3:9-10/Firstfruits/Tithing
excellenttrader:
Hey Guys,
I need your help in understanding Proverbs 3:9-10:
9 Honor the LORD with your wealth,
with the firstfruits of all your crops;
10 then your barns will be filled to overflowing,
and your vats will brim over with new wine.
Here's why...The other day I went, at the request of my mother, to a friend's house for a Bible study. The leader of the study, Tim, is a friend of mine that I've known for about 10 years. In fact, he used to be my Sunday school teacher, at my old church. Great guy, I've always really liked him. Anyway, he's holding this Bible study in an effort to start a new church. The old church that we all went to has been losing a lot of people over the last year or so (I had actually already left by this point, after having found BT about 2 years ago). The politics and the obvious greed of the pastor and staff have been scaring people away.
A part of Tim's background is financial management and planning. He's been providing Christian based financial counseling for years in an effort to help those that are overwhelmed by their finances and to try and help them do it in a Christian way. So, with that background Tim said he'd make the first study about how to manage our finances Biblically.
I was certain that at some point he would talk about tithing. And he did. I thought I'd be fairly well prepared and be able to see how he was misusing a certain passage after having recently read Ray's paper on tithing. But Tim caught me off guard by validating tithing with the section of Proverbs listed above. I went back afterwards and reread the tithing article by Ray and I've looked in the forums to try and find an answer to just how firstfruits should be understood here in this passage and not how it was used by Tim at this Bible study. Unfortunately I couldn't find anything specific to really answer it for me.
When Tim commented on verse 9 he said something along the lines of "The firstfruits is the first 10% of what we make, or the tithe. And that is something that we should always give first and foremost before we do anything else with our money. And when we do, we will get the blessing mentioned in verse 10."
One comment I found made by Ray is that the word firstfruits is mentioned 23? times in the OT and that in each case, its talking about firstfruits and not the tithe.
So, could someone please help me understand the firstfuits as its used here. Whether its tithe or firstfruits, this passage sure makes it sound like we should be giving the first portion of our wealth or money to God and then He'll bless us with properity afterwards. But, based on Ray's paper, I'm pretty sure that's not really what it means.
Also, I'm not looking to go back to Tim and tell him how he's wrong or get in an argument with my mother who also thinks the same way as Tim. I simply wanted to better understand what the scriptures have to say about it.
In addition to any comments, if anyone knows of a forum discussion or part of Ray's writings that might help to answer this, I'd appreciate the link to it.
Thanks,
Mike
gmik:
Hi Mike.
How did crops turn into money??? Tithing was always agriculture. Never money. There has got to be a link on tithing. Go to the link for all Ray's e mails, then scroll down till ya find tithing and start reading. It does take time. (or maybe KaT will find it ;))
A friend of ours was afraid for us...OH, you will start having $$$ problems if you stop tithing. If you don't give it to God then satan will just take it away!!! Yes, that is what they said and I am sure they believe that.
They don't get that we are still to be GIVERS.
Anyway, I didn't answer your Q but I hope some of our teachers will. That is def. not my role on the forum. :D
hillsbororiver:
Of course Ray addresses this very well and Gena you made an excellent point about money not being a tithable commodity, here is a bit of Ray's "Tithing is Unscriptural" paper;
MONEY AND THE BELIEVER
There is not one example of anyone tithing MONEY to anyone in the entirety of the Bible! The only reference to "money" with regards to tithing has absolutely nothing to do with paying tithes ON money. It is found in Deut. 14:24-26, which we shall now read in it’s entirety:
"And if the way be too long for thee [to the place where God placed His name to be worshipped, especially during the fall feast harvest of tabernacles] so that you are not able to carry it [the tithe of their farm produce] or if the place be too far from you, which the Lord your God shall choose to set His name there, when the Lord your God has blessed you: Then shall you turn it [the tithe of their farm produce] into money, and bind up the money in your hand, and shall go unto the place which the Lord your God shall choose: And you shall bestow that money [to the preachers? to the church? NO…] …for whatsoever thy soul lusts after [Heb: ‘for whatsoever your heart desires’], for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever your soul desires: and you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you, and your household."
Farm products could be sold and turned into money when long travel was necessary. But at the destination where God placed His name, the money was spent on food for the Levite, stranger, fatherless, poor, etc. It was not presented to the Levites as a monetary gift.
Here is an easy to understand Scripture explaining what the purpose of the tithe was:
"And the Levite, (because he has no part nor inheritance with you), and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within your gates, shall come, and shall EAT [food from the land] and be satisfied; that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do" (Deut. 14:29).
The Church would prefer you not know the following:
The tradesmen who made the baskets for harvesting, did not tithe.
The cobblers, who made the shoes for the servants of the field, did not tithe.
The carpenters, who made the wagons used for harvesting the fields, did not tithe.
The potters, who made the jugs for carrying water to the servants in the fields, did not tithe.
The women, who made the garments for the field-workers, did not tithe.
And certainly, the servants who worked in the fields for wages, did not tithe.
Here are the simple facts regarding the Biblical teaching of tithing:
ONLY LANDOWNERS TITHED
ONLY PRODUCTS OF THE LAND WERE TITHED
ONLY LEVITES COULD RECEIVE THE TITHES
TITHING WAS A LAW OF MOSES
CHRISTIANS ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES!
Does anyone have a Scripture that contradicts what I have just said?
By the way, Jesus Christ was a carpenter by trade, and as such, JESUS DID NOT TITHE!
http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html
And we all know there is no Temple or Levitical priesthood serving this Old Covenant Temple, it has been destroyed and replaced with a better Covenant. Our Lord and Saviour.
gmik:
Great Joe. Thanks!
skydreamers:
Hi Mike,
I'm surely not qualified to answer your questions, but may I just give you what came to me as I was thinking of your question? I read it this morning, and didn't answer because I'm not confident that my answer would be right. But it's been nagging me all day (for some bizarre reason) so I'll just throw it out there and see what everybody thinks.
--- Quote ---When Tim commented on verse 9 he said something along the lines of "The firstfruits is the first 10% of what we make, or the tithe. And that is something that we should always give first and foremost before we do anything else with our money. And when we do, we will get the blessing mentioned in verse 10."
--- End quote ---
First of all I'm not seeing how your friend is equating "firstfruits" with a 10% tithe...did he have a second scriptural witness? And as Gena rightly pointed out, tithing never had anything to do with money, which Ray explains thoroughly in his paper.
Beyond that, what I see in these verses is yet another wonderful promise of what God will do for all of humanity. Jesus is pre-eminently the firstfruits, then his Elect are also firstfruits...God the Father is the farmer.....
You shall keep the Feast of Harvest, of the firstfruits of your labor, of what you sow in the field. You shall keep the Feast of Ingathering at the end of the year, when you gather in from the field the fruit of your labor.
Exodus 23:16
Jesus and the firstfruits (the Elect) are and will be laboring in the field....and at the end, they will gather in the fruit of their labors...which will be....
"barns filled with plenty and vats bursting with new wine..."
I'm thinking this may have something to do with the millenium, or the period when everyone will learn the truth about God....His spirit and His truth will be available to all.
The LORD of hosts will protect them, and they shall devour, and tread down the sling stones, and they shall drink and roar as if drunk with wine, and be full like a bowl, drenched like the corners of the altar. On that day the LORD their God will save them, as the flock of his people; for like the jewels of a crown they shall shine on his land. For how great is his goodness, and how great his beauty! Grain shall make the young men flourish, and new wine the young women.
Zechariah 9:15-17
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
Jeremiah 31:33-34
As I see it, He is doing this for the Elect now, and for the rest in the next age.
There is nothing physical we give to God that will truly honor him, for what He is ultimately fashioning in us is to give to him our whole hearts and minds:
For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
Psalms 51:16-17
How many people in the church are faithfully giving their 10% but do not have a broken and contrite heart?? So what good are all those tithes? Does God really need their money?
I'm thinking those verses in Proverbs have more to do with what God is doing for humanity, than what we can or should supposedly do for Him. The blessings come from the fruit He is producing in us...spiritual fruit, spiritual blessings. This is what's more important.......if you focus on the physical as these tithers insist on doing, they will miss the spiritual meaning behind. That's just what I think.
I think this would be a good question to e-mail Ray directly about, as I'm quite confident he can nail this one down for you.
May God open our understanding to see His truths,
Peace to you,
Diana
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