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Author Topic: WHAT ABOUT THE IMMORTAL SOUL?  (Read 2832 times)

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Dean Peterman

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WHAT ABOUT THE IMMORTAL SOUL?
« on: June 30, 2007, 04:15:57 PM »

Dear friends,

Thank you for sharing your helpful insights.  I have decided to focus on one thing at a time.  There seems to be so much I don't know I have found myself worrying about the fact that I know so little and feel ignorant.  I let these feelings get me temporarily sidetracked.  Therefore, now that I understand that hell is not a real place I want to focus my attention on the doctrine of the immortal soul.  It seems most people take this for granted.  But after reading a lot of what Ray has written I can see that belief in an immortal soul may not be justified.  The thing I am having the most trouble with are the verses in the New Testament that seem to indicate people are going to be with God or Jesus immediately after they physically die.  For example, the thief on the cross.  Today you will be with me in paradise.  Lord receive my spirit.  There are many verses that make it seem that people are going to be with God immediately after they physically die.  Does anyone have a good explanation for this?  I am 90% convinced that we do not have an immortal soul but I need to get over this last hurdle.  Please share whatever insights you have.

Sincerely,

Dean
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hillsbororiver

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Re: WHAT ABOUT THE IMMORTAL SOUL?
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2007, 04:27:05 PM »

Hi Dean,

You will find much of what you are looking for right here;


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html

GOD’S WORD NEITHER CONTRADICTS NOR LIES

The People of God in the Old Testament never believed in an "immortal soul," for like Ezekiel, they knew that:

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sins, it [the ‘soul’—Heb: ‘nephesh’] shall die" (Ezek. 18:4 & 20).

And for no other reason than to hear Himself speak (I guess), God repeats it again in verse 20: "The soul [Heb: ‘nephesh’—same ‘nephesh’ that Adam became when he was MADE ALIVE by God, Gen. 2:7].that sins, it [the ‘soul’] shall die…"

Maybe God forgot that He had already said the same thing in verse 4, for surely He didn’t repeat this twice in one chapter because it is IMPORTANT or anything!

Perhaps God will ask the greatest and leading theologians of Christendom, how it is possible that when God teaches twice in 16 verses, that souls "die," that they are at the same time, "immortal?" Well, heck, let’s not wait till the White Throne Judgment, let’s ask it now: Christian Theologians of the world: "How is it possible for you to teach that souls are immortal, when God Himself teaches us twice in 16 verses that souls die?"

What more does God require of the sinner for his sin, other than "the soul that sins, IT SHALL DIE?" Here is the Scriptural answer:

"For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and EVERY transgression and disobedience received [past tense] a JUST RECOMPENSE of reward [Gk: ‘a just retribution’] (Heb. 2:2).

Every transgression, disobedience and sin of the past has already "received… a just retribution." How is it then that the Church teaches these sinners must yet be tortured an eternity for their transgressions and disobedience?

Why don’t all of you reading this, ask your pastor why he teaches that the "soul (nephesh)" of man is immortal, when God teaches us twice in 16 verses that the "soul [nephesh—the very part of man that is said to be immortal] dies," and therefore cannot possibly be immortal. Let me know what kind of answers you receive. Just tell them L. Ray Smith of bible-truths.com is conducting a survey using reader participation.

For more;

http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
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hillsbororiver

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Re: WHAT ABOUT THE IMMORTAL SOUL?
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2007, 04:42:44 PM »

From the "Emails to Ray;

Mary writes...

"Before Christ's death on the cross at Calvary, the souls of the dead went to Hades, a supernatural place somewhere in the heart of the earth. Hades has two compartments, the abode of the lost called in the Bible "torment," and the other side, the place of the saints of God called Paradise, and also referred to as "Abraham's Bosom." When Jesus gave up His Spirit to death, He went into the Paradise side of Hades and "took captivity captive." This means He took all the souls of the saints who had died to that point to be with God the Father in Heaven. The Paradise side of Hades is now empty. The torment side today holds all souls of people who rejected Christ's salvation, and who have died to this point in human history. People who are saved by believing in Christ today, and who die, now go directly to God, the Father, in Heaven."

(BTW.this is from a site about the rapture).another one I don't   get.

[Ray Replies]

Dear Mary:

This explanation of Christ's death and hades is typical Christian theology--contradiction after contradiction after contraction based on human reasoning and a total void of supporting Scriptures. Let me go through the author's statements:

1. "Before Christ's death on the cross at Calvary, the souls of the dead went to Hades, A SUPERNATURAL PLACE...."

Question: Where does the Bible call hades "a supernatural place?" Nowhere!

2. "...somewhere in the HEART OF THE EARTH."

Question:  Where does the Bible say that hades is in "the heart of the earth?" Nowhere!

3. "Hades has TWO COMPARTMENTS..."

Question: Where does the Bible say that hades has "two compartments?" Nowhere!

4. "...the abode of the lost called in the bible 'TORMENT,'...."

Question:  Where in the Bible is the abode of the lost called "torment?" Nowhere!

5. "...the place of the saints of God called PARADISE...."

Question:  Where in the Bible is the the place of dead saints called "paradise?"  Nowhere!

6. "...and also referred to as 'ABRAHAM'S BOSOM."

Question:  Where in the Bible are dead saints said to be in "Abraham's Bosom?"  Nowhere!

7. "When Jesus gave up His Spirit to death, He went into THE PARADISE...."

Question:  Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus ever went to "the paradise?"  Nowhere!

8. "...side of Hades and 'TOOK CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE?"

Question:  Where in the Bible does it say Christ took "captivity captive" from Hades? Nowhere?

9. "This means He took all the souls of the saints who had died to that point to be with God the Father IN HEAVEN."

Question: Where in the Bible does it say Jesus took souls from Hades and too them to "heaven?" Nowhere!

10. "The paradise side of Hades is now empty."

Question:  Where in the Bible does it say that there is a Paradise in Hades, and where does it say that it is NOW EMPTY?  Nowhere?

11. "The torment side today holds all souls of people WHO REJECTED CHRIST'S SALVATION."

Question:  Where in the Bible does it say that there is a "torment" side of Hades that now holds all the souls of people "who rejected Christ's salvation." Nowhere!

12. "...and WHO HAVE DIED to this point in human history."

Question:  Where in the Bible does it say that all those who have died in human history are in a compartment of Hades called "torment?" Nowhere!

13. "People who are saved by believing in Christ today, and who die, NOW GO DIRECTLY TO GOD, THE FATHER, IN HEAVEN."

Question:  Where in the bible does it say that all today who die, believing in Christ "go directly to God, the Father, in heaven?" Nowhere? In fact, I will give anyone ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS if they can show me a Scripture that says believing Christians today go directly to God in heaven when they die!

Thirteen out of thirteen--ALL LIES; ALL UNSCRIPTURAL! This is typical Christian Theology-- Unscriptural nonsense.

God be with you,

Ray



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Dean Peterman

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Re: WHAT ABOUT THE IMMORTAL SOUL?
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2007, 05:45:45 PM »

Thank you Rodger for your answer.  It makes sense.  One verse down a few more to go.
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UncleBeau

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Re: WHAT ABOUT THE IMMORTAL SOUL?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2007, 04:20:26 PM »

In order for people to believe in an "immortal soul", they have to believe that it's THEIR choice to 'come to Jesus'(this is where the "free will" comes in); whereas their soul is shot into heaven, judged, condemned to "hell", shot back into an almost completely decayed body, raised from the dead, shot back into heaven, judged Yet again, and thrown into the Lake of Fire, being tortured for yet another eternity...as apposed to the eternity that they were condemned to "hell" for. Does it not make sense to people that "Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth"Psalm 31:5(KJV) and "the soul that sinneth, it shall die"Ezekiel 18:4,20 (KJV) are different? We know what Ray taught about Adam BECOMING A LIVING SOUL Gen. 2:7(KJV). Why was it called a "living" soul? because there are such things as "dead" souls. Why would Jesus need to give us "living" water, if the water we drank would sustain life to the point of immortality? I hope I'm striking some thought into someone. Like Ray says, it's all one.
It all means the same thing. The scriptures start with Jesus always going back to Jesus. How can the corruptible be raised incorruptible when it goes to "hell"? How can a man be judged and saved by fire if he's being tortured by it forever? See, when Christian doctrine tries to condemn you (to somewhere) Jesus rescues you from that damnable heresy through the scriptures, then they condemn you to somewhere else. Once again, the scriptures show you the way out through the Spirit. They want to have an immortal soul so they can hold you responsible not only here, but AFTER you die! They should fear the one that can kill their soul Matt. 10:28 because THAT...is the beginning of wisdom & knowledge (Psalm 111:10, Proverbs 1:7, 9:10). Why would you have any reason to fear God if you can never really die, no matter what God says.? Some Christians believe that God doesn't cause evil, but that he throws people into eternal, burning torture?!?! and it's fair?!?! How backwards is that?!?!

It's hard for me...really hard sometimes..to know that it's impossible for everyone to know the truth right now in this age. and I know in my heart that my Father causes me to be saddened because of it. That's how I know that He's not backwards and wishy-washy like most christian doctrines. He is LOVE, SPIRIT, THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND, THE LIFE.

your friend,
-Beau




« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 04:23:57 PM by UncleBeau »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: WHAT ABOUT THE IMMORTAL SOUL?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2007, 05:17:41 PM »

Thank you Rodger for your answer.  It makes sense.  One verse down a few more to go.

The soul is not immortal, simply because;

1 Timothy 6:16 "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

CHRIST IS THE ONLY ONE WITH IMMORTALITY.

Offcourse the church wants you to believe otherwise, but they are always doing that aren't they?

Btw, dean, Spirit DOES NOT equal soul. They are two different things.

God bless,

Alex
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Dean Peterman

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Re: WHAT ABOUT THE IMMORTAL SOUL?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2007, 09:25:06 PM »

Dear Beau and Alex,

Thank you for your helpful insights.  These are the kind of insights I need.   I have a much better understanding since beginning this study.  I think the first time I heard someone say that we don't "have a sou"l  "we are a soul" I thought they were crazy.  What do they mean by that?  It has taken a long time for me to work through all of the false teaching that I was filled with but it is finally starting to make sense.  I find it fascinating that Satan told Eve she would not die.  Most christians think, wow, how could she fall for that lie.  How ironic, most of the planet has fallen for that same lie. 

Sincerely,

Dean
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: WHAT ABOUT THE IMMORTAL SOUL?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2007, 09:41:06 PM »

Dear Beau and Alex,

Thank you for your helpful insights.  These are the kind of insights I need.   I have a much better understanding since beginning this study.  I think the first time I heard someone say that we don't "have a sou"l  "we are a soul" I thought they were crazy.  What do they mean by that?  It has taken a long time for me to work through all of the false teaching that I was filled with but it is finally starting to make sense.  I find it fascinating that Satan told Eve she would not die.  Most christians think, wow, how could she fall for that lie.  How ironic, most of the planet has fallen for that same lie. 

Sincerely,

Dean

Ah dean, how wonderful you are beginning to see this, truly i rejoice for! =]

Yes we are living souls my friend, and when we die, God takes the spirit back and our bodies return to the earth, and the soul that sins, it[we] dies.

Body[dust of the earth] + Spirit [God breathing into adam the breath of life] = Soul [adam himself!]

Thank the Lord my brother, let us praise Him together!

Love,

Alex

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Dean Peterman

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Re: WHAT ABOUT THE IMMORTAL SOUL?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2007, 09:58:06 PM »

Thank you Alex,

You are very kind. 

Sincerely,

Dean
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