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Author Topic: Independence Day Thought  (Read 5455 times)

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  • Guest
Independence Day Thought
« on: July 04, 2007, 11:16:49 PM »

Don't get me wrong here.  We live in a great, beautiful country.  But this country was founded on 'christian' principles but...not God's.  Romans Chapter 13 verses 1 through 8 explain a new realized truth for me that contradicts all i've been taught and learned from men.  The truth is that this great country was founded upon man's principles rather than God's.  God has allowed it obviously but this country did not get it's reason to fight the British from God.  Let the fireworks begin...LOL ;D

Happy 4th Of July, a bit belated today but neverless.

God Bless!


  • Guest
Re: Independence Day Thought
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2007, 12:05:32 AM »

I thought I would try to add some history behind my new realized truth.  I'll use NIV tonight.   Romans Chapter 13. My words will be in blue.

Verse 1: Everyone must submitt himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Pre 1776 we were under the rule and authority of the British)

Verse 2: Consequently, he who rebels against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.  (I'm thinking of the Boston tea party here)   

The tea party really stands out in verses 6 and 7 to me. 

God Bless!



  • Guest
Re: Independence Day Thought
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2007, 12:24:13 AM »

Hi SeeksAllTruth,

Do you really believe that this country has not at least some semblance of God given principles. Is the truth measured in completeness or understnading. For has there ever been a leader in this fine land that did not act according to the understanding given by God.

Also what is more important, understanding all and doing nothing or understanding little and doing a lot?

Why should we always assume that: "The truth is that this great country was founded upon man's principles rather than God's. " When they were God Given principles.

Perhaps you are missing what God has so clearly given you to see? And that is, even with a little, tiny bit of truth the world can be a better place in which to live and raise our families, etc. Would you perhaps perfer living in the middle east and have the face of your mother, sister, wife, ect  hidden from you? Surely they are operating on Man's principles too!!! Wrong, they are not.

They as are we all only operating on the according to the God priciples them, just as he as given us, not all are the same. No more no less.

This country is because of God, not because of man. What can we learn from that? There is much I am sure. :)

Love in Christ,

« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 12:29:04 AM by YellowStone »


  • Guest
Re: Independence Day Thought
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2007, 12:10:39 PM »

I agree with Darren. God's the One who set this country in place, just as He was the One who set all countries in place. Wether this country stands until the end of the age or if it falls under it's own weight, it will have served it's purpose within God's plan just as God wills.



  • Guest
Re: Independence Day Thought
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2007, 01:39:05 PM »

Dear Seeks.  Hadn't ever thought of it like that.  Paul also said that whereever your at, be content.

So, you are saying that, the colonists were under British rule and should have stayed that way. And the founding fathers were just saying that God ordained them to revolt, to give it creedence and authority?   Interesting.

You may be right.  I don't know.  But God did will it this way for His grand design.

I have been watching that History channel special on the Am. Revolution.  It has brought out a bunch of stuff I never learned in history class.  It was almost a civil war.


  • Guest
Re: Independence Day Thought
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2007, 03:07:44 PM »

I agree with Matt; but this does make me think of some questions to ask? Has ANY nation kept God's principles? My guess would be no. God is in full control of how much truth He's given this country and He's in full control of When they come to the truth.



  • Guest
Re: Independence Day Thought
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2007, 03:43:32 PM »

I agree Beau, this has also brought me to think of something I hadn't considered previously.

Every earthly nation and every political system is, was and will be in flux, changing borders, changing leaders and governing systems since recorded history, there is no country where this is not true.

The first and only permanent Kingdom with an unchanging King or Head of State and unchanging law is the Kingdom of God, He is demonstrating how all things of men, of the flesh, is temporary, flawed and imperfect.

His Peace to you,



  • Guest
Re: Independence Day Thought
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2007, 08:13:27 PM »

Hello everyone.  Thank you for your replies.  Please don't think I'm anti-america.  I love this country, it's vast beautiful land but more importantly the freedom I have etc.  But when I read Romans Chapter 13 it's obvious to me that God's word was written long before our great country came into existence.  I was taught in school as a youngster that we fought the british because of such thing's like 'taxation without representation' and 'religous freedom'.  So if that is true, then did man obey Jesus with his teaching in chapter 13 ?  Did God make an exception to Paul Revere and the likes ? I am supposed to follow the word of God, but don't ask about Benjamin Franklin and those guys.  Were not the 'patriots' rebel's against the authority that God had established? See verse 2.  Now, I do agree that God must have and did will for all this to happen ?  Yes.   But clearly these 'patriots' couldn't have been able to read or something because God's word says that we should submit to the governing auhtorities because he (God) has ordained there existence.

In Christ Jesus,



  • Guest
Re: Independence Day Thought
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2007, 11:36:03 PM »


What you said reminds me of Daniel 4 where God drives King Nebuchadnezzar to lose his mind and live with the beasts of the field until "vs recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind, and bestows it on WHOMEVER HE WISHES." 

What conclusion does Nebuchadnezzar reach when his reason is restored?

vs. 34..."and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever.
         For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom endures from
         generation to generation
vs.35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He
        does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the
        inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him
        "What hast Thou done?"

These verses make me think all rulers rule by God's decree.  What countries exist and which ones are dominant and who rules them are all part of God's plan.

Wouldn't all those politicians be shocked if they knew?  Maybe they don't have to spend millions upon millions of dollars in campaign funds if it has already been decreed by God who will win!!!  ::) ;D



  • Guest
Re: Independence Day Thought
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2007, 02:40:38 AM »


Good One, Cindy

Awesome scriptures.  Again, knew the story, but hadn't thought about it.  God is in Control!!


  • Guest
Re: Independence Day Thought
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2007, 02:50:40 AM »

The founders believed that the king was denying them God given rights and that  it was better to live under the God given rights than the king.

Perhaps our founders remembered 1 Samuel 8:4-20

 4Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah,

 5And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.

 6But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.

 7And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

 8According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee.

 9Now therefore hearken unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them.

 10And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king.

 11And he said, This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.

 12And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots.

 13And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers.

 14And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants.

 15And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants.

 16And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work.

 17He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants.

 18And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

 19Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us;

 20That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles.

In these verses God was telling them all that the evil these kings would do to them because they did not want  the Lord to rule over them.

Now read the complaints of our founders in the Declaration of Independence then come to your own conclusion as to why they believed rebellion was the right thing to do.

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."
« Last Edit: July 06, 2007, 02:58:09 AM by mrl1970 »


  • Guest
Re: Independence Day Thought
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2007, 03:32:13 AM »

Thanks Seeks, good topic... for awhile there I almost responded with well "go back to Britain then."  Ha!  I realize you are posing an argument for discussion, and a good one at that, different.

Thanks to the classics... Darren & Joe, and Cindy/Pylady another good one!

And many thanks to MRL1970 for the American History dig-up.  Good to re-read and ponder.

I'm only left saying (over and over again in prayer) "thank you dear Father and Lord for not making me a woman born in Bangladesh or Guatemala and the list of countries is staggering and goes on and on and on ... in a very sad way." 

Thanks again for stretching the ol' prune on nationalistic values [worldly and temporal though they may be.]   :)

I praise God daily in simplicity.  With joy in all, Janice


  • Guest
Re: Independence Day Thought
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2007, 01:49:06 PM »

This country is not perfect but it is my country and i am proud of her! The fourth of July celebrates the goodness of our country. It is freedom , to live, to speak, to write and every freedom we have. My family is pretty much all military as far back in our family history as we can trace. It gives me even more pride for what my family members have done to ensure our freedoms.


  • Guest
Re: Independence Day Thought
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2007, 06:16:18 PM »

Many of you have read posts about my son, Tim, who was a Marine for 8 years.  While in Uganda he found Ray's site and none of us have been the same since  :D  Anyway, he and Ray exchanged a few e mails.  Not once did Ray come down on him in any demeaning way, nor question his motives or anything. I think Ray knew Tim would be reading his site and could come to his own feelings on all that.  Imagine if Ray had of done an arrogant number on Tim and pushed him away??

God had Tim in the military!  In all the 8 years Tim never pulled the trigger on anyone!  Praise God in all things.
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