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[psalmsinger]

I'm sure you have read Ray's paper on the unpardonable sin and blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  I can't remember the title and page:)  Judas delivered Jesus to the first "trial"  by the church authorities in the synagogue. Those that plotted to murder Jesus, the scribes and pharisees in the synagogue church system, were the ones who delivered Jesus to the Roman authorities and recruited Judas and the mob. The desires of their hearts were in accordance with God's plan and purpose.  Paul did say that Judas "repented". I think the subject was covered well in that paper.  Maybe Kat can point us to the right section to review.  It is my understanding that the sin was greater for those involved in the murder plot and delivering up of Christ Jesus.  The consequences for that deed were greater historically speaking.  When God set the law of cause and effect in motion the "punishment" or consequence always fits the crime or action. His judgment is righteous. For instance  if you jump off a building, God's law of gravity causes you to fall to your hurt or death, if you are a glutton you become obese, sexual perversion breeds disease, anger and hate kill, love springing abundantly from the heart heals relationships, etc...  I praise God for His wisdom in creation and I am thankful that His workmanship includes that Christ WILL BE ALL IN ALL.  The faithfulness and patience that spring from the heart of Almighty God is mind boggleling!

Barbara

[Chris R]

Hi All

From Rays Letter To Haggee

"Jesus answered him, "No authority have you against Me in anything, except it were given to you from above. Therefore he who is giving Me up [JEWS] to you HAS THE GREATER SIN" (John 19:11)

The Scribes and Pharisees, Fashioned the entire plot, Judas being just a pond in the scheme of things.

Read the letter to Haggee  http://bible-truths.com/hagee1.htm

Peace

Chris R

[YellowStone]

Hi Arcturus

And we disagree where.......?   

I used to have great fear of my dad and tremble much when I knew I had crossed the line and whatever punishment I was to receive was well deserved. Scary, you bet. But never once did I lose sight that my dad had my best interest at heart.

So my love for my dad was always greater than my fear, just as it is for my Heavenly Father.

Arcturus, I have spent years trying to second guess God, trying to fathom his plan for me. It's hopeless, for it is not for me to know. But I do know that every opportunity given me by God, is opportunity enough to share the fruits of the Spirit with whome ever I come in contact with. I myself do not care in the least of What God has planned for me, whether I be a vessel of honor or dishonor. What is important to me is that I trust him implicitly and remain true to his Spirit that Joe so perfectly stated, speaks in the ear of my spirit. To hear, I must first listen with an open heart and a clear mind, free of any carnal understanding. In short, I must be as meek as a child, with the same mindset.

For my understanding will not ever garner me a single second to my life.

Mat 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?  
Luk 12:25 And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?

It is all Him. To Him, for Him and from Him.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.

I truly do not see where we differ, except for the words used. If I am wrong then please forgive me.

In Christ with Love,
Darren

[mrsnacks]

This raises a question regarding Satan entering Judas to betray Christ. God foreknew Judas would give Christ up but was this all part of God's plan involving Judas making the wrong choices or God allowing Satan ( He could've forbid Satan entering Judas ) so Judas could carry out God's plan ? If the adversary didn't enter Judas would he have betrayed Jesus ? So God is the cause of all and He takes responsibility but man is accountable when he sins.

I know that God doesn't force anyone to sin - we do that on our own. But to say God is in control and is sovereign over all and nothing happens outside of His will is still confusing to me. I believe this but it still causes me to scratch my head.  The only way this is possible is if God created a script and we must all say and do everything in the script. We cannot not do otherwise. Pilate had to have Jesus crucified and Judas had to betray Jesus. They could not do otherwise even if they wanted to.

 Let's say I have two 2 year olds in a playpen. I know if I toss one cookie in between them they will fight for it and one will end up crying. But I don't have control over them. But to say that  God has control over all can only be possible if I have them programmed to do this or that right ? I can be pretty sure that the kids will fight over the cookie. But there is always the possibility they won't even though the odds are in my favor . But God knows for sure 100 % . And is that because God sees the future perfectly only or is it both. He sees what will happen plus He causes what happens so His will can be accomplished. This is difficult framing my question and I hope you understand what I am asking. I am still in the fog  slightly.

[skydreamers]

I was thinking the same thing as mrsnacks, about Satan:

Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve. He went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them.
Luke 22:3-4

And as for the Scribes and Pharisees, they were:

...of (their) father the devil, and (their) will is to do (their) father's desires...
John 8:44

So this leads me to think that it is ultimately Satan who "has the greater sin".  So is it possible that it is Satan who is committing the "unpardonable" sin which cannot be forgiven in this age, or the age to come (millennium) but must be purged in the Lake of Fire which was prepared for him...

[Deborah-Leigh]

Chris R

Thank you for your edifying suggestion. From the letter to Hage I have seen where I have been in error to assume that it was Judas who would receive the greater punishment. I assumed this and there in NO SCRIPTURE to support that assumption so I welcome correction. In fact Judas was remorse and grieved that he had betrayed "innocent blood"...He went to the Pharisees with this revelation and they slapped him back with no empathy or healing. Had Judas gone to Jesus with his sorrow and regret....well....the scriptures would read differently!

Jesus was talking about the JEWS being those who will have the greater punishment...the scribes, law keepers, the ones who have been party to and still are party to the execution of Christ!

Here is the excerpt from the link Chris R has offered for study that showed me the truth.

Here are the Scriptural facts:

"I am aware that you are Abraham's seed [JEWS]. But you are seeking to kill me" (John 8:37)

"But now ye [JEWS] seek to kill me ... this did not Abraham" (Jn. 8:40)

"Has not Moses given you [JEWS] the law? And not one of you is doing the law! Why are you seeking to kill me?" (Jn. 7:19)

"Then said some of them of Jerusalem [JEWS], Is not this he, Whom they [JEWS] are seeking to kill?" (Jn. 7:25)

"Then assembled together the chief priests [JEWS] and the scribes [JEWS], and the elders [JEWS] of the people [JEWS] unto the palace of the high priest [A JEW], who was called Caiaphas, And consulted that they [JEWS] might take Jesus by subtlety, and kill Him" (Mat. 26:4)

"Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests [JEWS], and unto the scribes [JEWS]; and they [JEWS] shall condemn Him to death ... " (Mk. 10:34)

"After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in JEWRY, because the JEWS sought to kill Him" (Jn. 7:1)

"Now the chief priests [JEWS], and elders [JEWS], and all the council [JEWS], sought false witness against Jesus, to put Him to death" (Mat. 26:59)

"Then the high priest [A JEW] rent his clothes, saying ... What think ye [JEWS]? They [JEWS] answered and said, He is guilty of death" (Mat. 27:66)

"When the morning was come, all the chief priests [JEWS] and elders of the people [JEWS] took counsel against Jesus to put Him to death" (Mat. 27:3)

" ... so that both our chief priests [JEWS] and chiefs [JEWS] give Him up to the judgment of death, and they crucify Him" (Lk. 24:20)

"When, then, the chief priests [JEWS] and the deputies [JEWS] perceived Him they [JEWS] clamor, saying, 'Crucify! Crucify Him!'" (John 19:6)

" ... God makes Him Lord as well as Christ-this Jesus whom YOU [JEWS] CRUCIFY" (Acts 2:36)

" ... let it be known to you all and to the entire people of Israel [JEWS] that in the name of Jesus Christ, the Nazarene, whom YOU CRUCIFY" (Acts 4:10)

"Jesus answered him, "No authority have you against Me in anything, except it were given to you from above. Therefore he who is giving Me up [JEWS] to you HAS THE GREATER SIN" (John 19:11)

"What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all [JEWS] say unto him, let Him be crucified" (Mat. 27:22)

"And he [Pilate] took water, and washed his hands before the multitude [JEWS], saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye [JEWS] to it" (Mat. 27:24)

"Then answered all the people [JEWS], and said, His blood be on us [JEWS] and on our children [JEWS]" (Mat. 27:25)

Darren I hope too that I do not try to second guess God. Understanding His Word and integrating His Wisdom is my race. You say: Arcturus, I have spent years trying to second guess God, trying to fathom his plan for me. It's hopeless, for it is not for me to know.

Eph 1:17. For I always pray to the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Glory, that He may grant you a spirit of wisdom and revelation, on insight into mysteries and secrets in the deep and intimate KNOWLEDGE OF HIM. 18 By having the eyes of you heart flooded with light, so that you can KNOW AND UNDERSTAND the hope to which he has called you, and how rich in His glorious inheritance in the saints His set-apart ones. And so that you CAN KNOW AND UNDERSTAND what is the immeasurable and unlimited and surpassing greatness of His power in and for us who believe, as demonstrated in the working of His might strength.

I know you wrote that you find it hopeless to know Gods PLAN for you. I know too that it is stupid to try to predict our circumstances. We are after all not fortune tellers, witches or wizards! So if you mean that you rest in peace of the wisdom knowledge and understanding that God is writing your circumstances and that you have no control over what you will experience day by day for no one knows what tommorrow brings...then...yes...we agree!

Jam 4:14 " whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away."

Peace to you

Arcturus

[GODSown1]

Amen! & Amen! Darren,
                              muchLOVE!! Pera

[GODSown1]

wow!,
       I fink dis is a gud time 2 bring up sumfing Ive been finkn abowt 4 awhile now & it jus doesnt seem 2 go away, & plez dnt throw stones @ me lol! , Well here goes, Im startn 2 blieve der isnt even a satan n e more, Y?? bcoz if I believe! in which I do d@ GOD is in Control & we r ALL 2 b Saved in da end, den doesnt d@ mean woteva we do is GOD? Woteva!?, so if d@s da case den I believe der cant b such a fing az a satan, I blieve satan is jus a word 4 evil/bad. Well its sumfing Ive been wantn 2 say or ask 4 a while, 4give me if it all soundz a bit much, But! Plez correct me lol! , dis is jus my opinion, Im a big boi now .
       muchLOVE!! Pera

ps. Well isnt GOD in CONTROL!??