Greater Sin

[bobf]

This has puzzled me.  I've thought of asking Ray, but I'll ask here first.

John 19:10  Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Pilate could have no power to crucify Christ unless that power were given by God.  But the same is true of Judas.  He could have no power to deliver Christ to Pilate unless God have given him that power.  So why does Judas have the greater sin?

I have an explanation in mind, but it does not totally satisfy me.

God bless,
Bob

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello bobf

You quote:

John 19:10  Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that DELIVERED me unto thee hath the greater sin.

I searched what delivered means. It appears three other times.

Mt 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also BETRAYED HIM.

Mt 27:4 Saying, I have BETRAYED the innocent blood. and they said, what is that to us?

Ac 12:4 And when he has apprehended him, he put him in prison, and DELIVERED him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him;

BETRAYAL is the greater sin. Like if you throw a baby into the mouth of a Lion you have the greater sin not the Lion.

Regarding Judas. You say : He could have no power to deliver Christ to Pilate unless God have given him that power.  So why does Judas have the greater sin?

It was not POWER that was given to Judas to betray Christ. It was God letting Judas be himself whereas Pilate had Power of State and Government and authority to execute the death penalty. Judas was wicked and acting out his wickedness. There is no power in that!

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[jER]

Nicely stated, Arcturus!

- jER

[YellowStone]

Arcturus, you wrote and I concur totally:

It was not POWER that was given to Judas to betray Christ. It was God letting Judas be himself whereas Pilate had Power of State and Government and authority to execute the death penalty. Judas was wicked and acting out his wickedness. There is no power in that!

Many look at Judas and his betrayal of Christ in amazement and shake their heads in disbelief that anyone could possibly betray the greatest man who ever walked. Some may discover that Judas was merely forefilling the plans that God had for him, through his inherent wickedness. However, this is only part of the truth. For if it was given to Judas to do what was required to fullfill God's plans, then so too must then that Mathew, Mark, Luke and John (etc) been likewise fulfilling God's plan. They, like us, are powerless to thwart God in anyway.

Is it any wonder that the body is dead?

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.  

  This goes right back to Joe's sacred secret thread, true life is not earned or deserved; rather it is an underserved gift of the Spirit of God.

As for my understanding the severity of sin, I can only go by what Christ told us.

Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Mat 12:32  And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.

It would appear the sins of Pilate and of Judas were both against the son of Man and would be forgiven. It sure doesn't look so hopeful for those who sin against the Holy Ghost.

Here's a question, how can anyone sin against the Holy Ghost if it is not ones will to decide to, or not? Granted, I can understand how any given the Spirit of Truth are held to a higher standard, but are they any more responsible? Let's look at it another way, if God knows that the next Lotto numbers will fall in this order: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 What chance do they have of not falling in that order.

So in retrospect, is sin

    a) going against the will of God unknowingly
    b) doing the same but knowling and willingly
    c) doing the same, kowningly but unwillingly
    d) or knowing that one in the flesh can neither do anything willingly or unwilling against God.

It is my understanding that the answer must be D, for if we fight sin, are we not fighting God? If we likewise consume ourselves in trying to eliminate sin from our life are we no also denying God? 

I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;  but with the flesh the law of sin.  Rom 7:25

How can one live by the Spirit if one does not love and trust God completely and without question?

Does this make sense?

Love in Christ,
Darren

[Sorin]

Pilate could have no power to crucify Christ unless that power were given by God.  But the same is true of Judas.  He could have no power to deliver Christ to Pilate unless God have given him that power.

No Bob, it is not the same thing. Pontias Pilate was a Roman Governor and had the power to set Jesus free, Judas did not have such a power, he was merely a traitor. That's what Jesus meant by "Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above", he meant it was God who made Pilate a Roman Governor, and if it weren't given to him from above (to be a Roman governor)
he would have no power at all against Jesus. He could have been just a regular joe. No offense to the moderator named Joe, and people named Joe. 

So why does Judas have the greater sin?

Because he's a traitor, Pilate wanted to set Jesus free.

[sansmile]

Hi Sorin,
But doesn't it say he that delievered me unto THEE...  (therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.)

meaning whoever delivered Him to Pilot??? And that was Judas?/

God Bless San

[Sorin]

Hi Sorin,
But doesn't it say he that delievered me unto THEE...  (therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.)

meaning whoever delivered Him to Pilot??? And that was Judas?/

God Bless San

Hi San, yes it does say that. And I thought that's what I said too. 

[sansmile]

Oh RIGHT  you did   sorry sorin xxx 

Sandie

[Sorin]

Oh RIGHT  you did   sorry sorin xxx 

Sandie

Hehe! No worries.   

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Darren,

Some of my thoughts arising out of your comments. You observe:

Here's a question, how can anyone sin against the Holy Ghost if it is not ones will to decide to, or not?

We are born spiritually weak. We enjoy sinning. Through error some are lead to repentance from God. That repentance brings us to recognise our sin and commence us to hate the addiction to sin and finally to beg God for deliverance and mercy and forgiveness from our sin. Repentance is a process. It can happen in a nana second as with Saul on his road to Damascus or throughout a life time. For God a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. HE decides when and how to change us. He is the potter.


Granted, I can understand how any given the Spirit of Truth are held to a higher standard, but are they any more responsible?

Accountable not responsible. God is responsible we are accountable. God is not accountable to anyone! And so, Yes, to whom much is given much is required.

Let's look at it another way, if God knows that the next Lotto numbers will fall in this order: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 What chance do they have of not falling in that order.

So in retrospect, is sin

   a) going against the will of God unknowingly

Yes. That is sin. We all go against Gods will. All have fallen short of the Glory. All have sinned.

   b) doing the same but knowling and willingly

Yes. God gives such over to their reprobate minds. Ref Rom 1 They know they sin and do it anyway attempting to bring others into the same error of their ways.

   c) doing the same, kowningly but unwillingly

Yes. The addiction to sin in some causes them to come face to face with their weakness and dependence on God for His Strength and Mercy.

   d) or knowing that one in the flesh can neither do anything willingly or unwilling against God.

Wrong. We have choices. We are not guiltless. We are not outside the field of learning to discern the difference between what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is evil. This process is the Plan of God. We are not outside the Plan of God.

It is my understanding that the answer must be D, for if we fight sin, are we not fighting God?

God is not sin. God is the creator of evil that is the contrast that we are learning to discern goodness and the Grace, Mercy, Power, Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Love of God. No virtue arises without the experiences of evil as the contrast.

If we likewise consume ourselves in trying to eliminate sin from our life are we no also denying God?  

No. Resist the devil and he will flee we are told. Hate evil love good. Think on these things....whatsoever things are lovely etc....what good is this admonition if while we are thinking of everything that is good and true and of wholesome report we are surrounded by everything that is good, true and lovely. We have to become the light in the dark...That is what becoming the image of Christ is about isn't it?

Hope this helps.  

Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Hi Arcturus,

Let me comment on D. Yes we have choices, but not outside of those of God. We cannot choose to do something that God does not want. For example, I cannot choose to find God, if He wants to stay hidden from me. Likewise, neither can I ignore God, if he wants to reveal himself to me. Your example of Saul/Paul is an excellent example of this. We as you say, are not outside the plan of God.

Please know that I never said and I hope not implied that God is sin.

I agree with what you say: "God is the creator of evil that is the contrast that we are learning to discern goodness and the Grace, Mercy, Power, Wisdom, Understanding, Council and Love of God. No virtue arises without the experiences of evil as the contrast."

You are right about resisiting evil, and I surely would never even consider doing much of the evil atrocities that flood our news each day. But am I free from evil or from sin? I can only answer sadly, no. My body is dead to sin.

Paul Struggling With Sin - Romans 7:7-25 [NIV]

    7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

    11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

    14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.  For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do–this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

    21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God–through Jesus Christ our Lord!

    So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Wow!!! These words of Paul say it all.

But having read these words and once again your response, I can see that we are in total agreement.

I said "If we fight (resist) sin, are we not fighting (resisting) God. And you said "No. Resist the devil and he will flee we are told. "

Then you wrote these wonderful words: "Hate evil love good. Think on these things....whatsoever things are lovely etc....what good is this admonition if while we are thinking of everything that is good and true and of wholesome report we are surrounded by everything that is good, true and lovely. We have to become the light in the dark...That is what becoming the image of Christ is about isn't it? "

This is exactly my point!!!  We must NOT focus on evil as if it were something our bodies could master, BUT instead focus 100% on God and all things good and true. With the mindset of a child we must have absolute trust and love in God, and pray always for his Spirit to permeate our thinking so that our thoughts and lives mirror the to the best of our God given ability, the fruits of the spirit.

Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit. 

I believe we are both saying the same thing. Resisting evil is more than flirting with evil thoughts and desires, but NOT comitting the crime.

Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.  

Resisting is removing such thoughts and replacing them with such as those you mention to the best of our ability, but never forgetting that our bodies are by nature sinning machines, and sin comes from the sin living in us.

Rom 7:17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

Thanks so much for your response.

In Christ with Love,

Darren

[Beloved]

Hi Yellowstone and Arcturus,  great posts ...good meat....you both talk about choices... and this can be a very confusing subject,  in the light of the Absolute Sovergnity of God.

I know I have to keep reminding myself that there is no "Free" will. Our choices are all being directed by God.   

(Pro 16:9 KJVR)  A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

As believers the "choice " we think  we make is  actually a "non choice" ....that is we die to self (what we want and desire) and follow Christ and we "obey" his comandments .....all acording to His plan.

When one has the Spirit of Christ within... it is our souls that still need to conform to the image of Christ.  Christ working in us does this work. We learn to submit our will and make these kind of  "non choices"

Non believers and babes in Christ who are still carnal do not "know" why or even what they are "choosing" ....they are blind and deaf and are being led by their sinful flesh .....again all according to the plan of God.

Judas did not die to self he tried to make a decision that he thought would either force Jesus to become the Great Messaih or if he didn't do it, he would then have deal with Law and the Sanhedrin.

His act was not much different from Peter's , who also tried to stop Jesus from going to the cross both verbally and with his sword. Peter had to go through three denialsof Christ  because of his own macho speech and answer three "do you love me Simon" questions before he understood his actions and God's Mercy which led him to write .

(1Pe 2:25 CLV)  For you were as straying sheep, but now you turned back to the Shepherd and Supervisor of your souls."

Judas was chosen to betray... a type... for all of mankind....we all have betrayed Christ at some time in our lives.   

The Great throne Judgement will show us all ....our soulish and carnal nature and weaknesses ....and the need for spiritual cleansing and renewal.

Beloved 

[bobf]

BETRAYAL is the greater sin. Like if you throw a baby into the mouth of a Lion you have the greater sin not the Lion.

I can understand that betrayal is the greater sin.  If Christ had said that Judas had the greater sin because he betrayed the Son of God that would have made sense to me.  But that isn't reason Christ gave.

It was not POWER that was given to Judas to betray Christ. It was God letting Judas be himself whereas Pilate had Power of State and Government and authority to execute the death penalty. Judas was wicked and acting out his wickedness. There is no power in that!

But how could Judas have succeeded were he not given authority by God to succeed?  That's the part the bothers me.  It seems to me that both were given different kinds of authority over Christ.  Was Judas not doing exactly as God's hand and counsel determined to be done?

Acts 2:23  Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain.

Acts 4:26  The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27  For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Thanks for all your answers.  I guess the difference is that Pilate was given the job to judge and pass sentence and was arrying out the job (though not justly). Judas had no such "job" of betraying the Son of God.

God bless,
Bob

[Beloved]

Bobf

Judas really had the job too   

the greater sin or offense is ... the betrayal ....not the judicial system itself which Pilot only represented.  Gods plan was crucifixition not stoning.

beloved

[bobf]

Bobf

Judas really had the job too   

the greater sin or offense is ... the betrayal ....not the judicial system itself which Pilot only represented.  Gods plan was crucifixition not stoning.

beloved

beloved,

Yes, but Christ did not say Judas had the greater sin because he betrayed him.  Had Christ said that, I would have understood it.

God bless,
Bob

[Beloved]

I must be missing the point somewhere?

Jesus washed all 12 Apostles feet then
(Joh 13:10 CLV)  Jesus is saying to him, "He who is bathed has no need, except to wash his feet, but is wholly clean. And you are clean, but not all."
(Joh 13:11 CLV)  For He was aware who is giving Him up. Therefore He said that "Not all of you are clean."
(Joh 13:12 CLV)  When, then, He washes their feet, and took His garments and leans back again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you?

(Joh 13:26 CLV)  Jesus, then, is answering and saying, "He it is to whom I, dipping in the morsel, shall be handing it.Dipping in the morsel, then, He is taking it and giving it to Judas, son of Simon Iscariot."
(Joh 13:27 CLV)  And after the morsel, then, Satan entered into that man. Jesus, then, is saying to him, "What you are doing, do more quickly."

In the garden
Joh 18:2 CLV)  Now Judas also, who is giving Him up, was acquainted with the place, for often was Jesus gathered there with His disciples."

(Joh 18:3 CLV)  Judas, then, getting a squad and deputies of the chief priests and Pharisees, is coming there with lanterns and torches and weapons."
(Joh 18:4 CLV)  Jesus, then, being aware of all that is coming on Him, coming out, said to them, "Whom are you seeking?
(Joh 18:5 CLV)  They answered Him, "Jesus, the Nazarene.Jesus is saying to them, "I am He.Now Judas, also, who is giving Him up, stood with them."
Jesus himself says
Luk 22:48 Now Jesus said to him, "Judas, with a kiss are you giving up the Son of Mankind?[/b]

Bobf ..You are right jesus did not say that Judas did betray him but Jesus did say that he...  Judas ... "gave him up"  and that... was the greater offence. 

The jewsish leaders  too were in on ...the the giving him up.  both corporate and the individual offence

I hope you do not think I am knit picking ....I am trying to undertstand your dilemna and clarify my point

beloved

[bobf]

I must be missing the point somewhere?

Jesus washed all 12 Apostles feet then
(Joh 13:10 CLV)  Jesus is saying to him, "He who is bathed has no need, except to wash his feet, but is wholly clean. And you are clean, but not all."
(Joh 13:11 CLV)  For He was aware who is giving Him up. Therefore He said that "Not all of you are clean."
(Joh 13:12 CLV)  When, then, He washes their feet, and took His garments and leans back again, He said to them, "Do you know what I have done to you?

(Joh 13:26 CLV)  Jesus, then, is answering and saying, "He it is to whom I, dipping in the morsel, shall be handing it.Dipping in the morsel, then, He is taking it and giving it to Judas, son of Simon Iscariot."
(Joh 13:27 CLV)  And after the morsel, then, Satan entered into that man. Jesus, then, is saying to him, "What you are doing, do more quickly."

In the garden
Joh 18:2 CLV)  Now Judas also, who is giving Him up, was acquainted with the place, for often was Jesus gathered there with His disciples."

(Joh 18:3 CLV)  Judas, then, getting a squad and deputies of the chief priests and Pharisees, is coming there with lanterns and torches and weapons."
(Joh 18:4 CLV)  Jesus, then, being aware of all that is coming on Him, coming out, said to them, "Whom are you seeking?
(Joh 18:5 CLV)  They answered Him, "Jesus, the Nazarene.Jesus is saying to them, "I am He.Now Judas, also, who is giving Him up, stood with them."
Jesus himself says
Luk 22:48 Now Jesus said to him, "Judas, with a kiss are you giving up the Son of Mankind?[/b]

Bobf ..You are right jesus did not say that Judas did betray him but Jesus did say that he...  Judas ... "gave him up"  and that... was the greater offence. 

The jewsish leaders  too were in on ...the the giving him up.  both corporate and the individual offence

I hope you do not think I am knit picking ....I am trying to undertstand your dilemna and clarify my point

beloved

beloved,

No, I know you are not nit-picking.  We are just not connecting on what we are both saying.  I realize Judas betrayed Jesus.  There is no question about that.  And I understand that that IS a greater sin that what Pilate did.  But notice what Christ says here...

John 19:10  Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Jesus is saying Judas has the greater sin than Pilate.  But the reason Christ gave is not that Judas betrayed him, but that God had GIVEN the power of Pilate over Jesus.  My problem was that it appeared to me that God also gave Judas the power and authortity to succeed in delivering Christ over to Pilate.  So I do not understand the reasoning Christ gave.  Had Christ said that Judas has the greater sin because He betrayed Christ, then I would have understood the reasoning.

God bless,
Bob

[GODSown1]

Hey Bob,
           I believe Darren has answered it well, Its ALL! GOD brother its HIS Plan HE has 4 each & every1 of us, ALL! of us not sum of us, Well d@s wot I cum 2 blieve! brother, thru GOD telln me hw eva HE has told me whether it was thru Ray or here in the Forum or how eva, I feel dis is ALL GOD! da choices we make etc..., Well brother my opinion Only! muchBlessnZ & I Pray HE reveels it ALL 2 U soon.
           muchLOVE!! Pera

ps. HE new us b4 We were born ( in our mothers womb), HE new our every thorts, wot We r 2 say & do then!, now! & after, its HIS Plan, PEACE 2 U brother

[DuluthGA]

AMEN sista Pera!  And we iz all unique, each and every one of us... ALL DIFFERENT!  There iz a plan goin' on!!!

And special thanks to Beloved because I very much like the concept of NON-CHOICE.  Itz gud!  It makes sense 2 me!  A very workable thought!!!

Love ya and you all, Janice 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Perhaps I should make my thoughts a little clearer.

While WE HAVE MANY CHOICES we ultimately can only make ONE CHOICE. Just like you may have many clothes to wear in your wardrobe but you can only wear one suit at a time!  God knows what our choices and PREFERENCES will be because He knows us better than we know ourselves.

God makes our PREFERENCES  to do evil become less and less through the experiences of evil CONSEQUENCES that He writes for us to be humbled. It is God in His Wisdom, Understanding and Love who writes the consequences for our evil choices. For me that is why there is much wisdom in the Psalm exhorting us to not envy the wicked when they appear to have no consequences for their lying cheating deceitful ways.

Psalms 37:1 Fret not yourself because of evildoers, neither be envious against those who work unrighteousness.

So Darren, I believe it is God who gives us the experience of our bad choices and who humbles us by such experiences. If we are getting away with evil actions and thoughts then it is God also who is preserving such people for the full wrath of His indignation. Mystery Babylon will fall. In this way it is God who brings all to righteousness through the circumstances of our lives or in the White Throne LOF that He writes. We know that God is the maker of the vessel that is made for His Glory or His Wrath. The evildoers that appear to be doing well are actually those reserved for punishment, correction and the hurts of the second death. They certainly should not be making us fret as the Psalm says. God is in control and  He is the author and finisher of our faith.

I have said this before and Darren you picked up on it in another thread where I challenged the discussion to look at what it means to work out our salvation in fear and trembling. If I see my choices are not being corrected in this life and if I see myself getting away with evil and deception....IF I SEE this consequence and know what it means....then I should be FEARING AND TREMBLING for the second death is no place to desire! Even Jesus warned us about praying that we have the STRENGHT to stand before him and not to buckle into the lake of fire! It takes a pure heart and clean conscience to stand before the King of Kings I believe.

I do not believe that God wants us to choose evil above good. He does not Will for us to be evil, wretched and pitifully weak spiritually. That is not our destination. God makes the fail proof Plan to bring us into obedience through much suffering. We do not choose to carry our cross. God makes us do it for He makes us stand and we fall all by ourselves! Our cross is from God and the strength to carry it is also from Him.

That fact should also make us fear and tremble before the Almighty and Sovereign God as we discover through our "choices" and the consequences for them....what God has in mind for us!...or ....what vessel... for honour or dishonour into which we are being created.

Makes you think doesn't it?

Peace  be to you

Arcturus