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[mrsnacks]

It has been stated here that the stories we read aren't stories of what Paul, Joseph, Peter, Moses, or etc went through but these are our stories just as well as theirs. These events are what the elect will go through.
So what if some of these experiences are missing in our lives does that mean we ( if we are elect ) will have yet to face. MY wife for example was called to the Lord when she was 6 years old. She has always to my knowledge had a close relationship with the Lord . Yes she had bought into the false doctrines of the church but she didn't know any different. But when I presented her with what I have learned which was contrary to what the orthodox church taught beginning years ago- she accepted it . Her eyes were opened. So she hasn't gone off and squandered and left her first love as I see it. So what does this mean ?

This question is connected . What about persecution. Jesus did say that the church would persecute His own. That you will be hated by all men for my names sake. But what if this isn't the case as yet ? Does this mean this is what is in store for His elect.

[mrsnacks]

try reading the
 
" The Lake of Fire series " arcticles by Ray.

http://www.bible-truths.com/

Most if not all your answers you will find with in those same articles !

Rodger

-------------------------------

Sorry he doesn't address this. Do you have a take on this . That is the purpose of the forum. We can build on what Ray has said but Ray doesn't cover everything.

[Craig]

So what if some of these experiences are missing in our lives does that mean we ( if we are elect ) will have yet to face.

No, in my opinion.  All experience we face is due to a lesson needing learned or a virtue to be brought out.  Being different as we all are we may not need to be tested in every area, and some may need testing in more areas than others.

This is all my opinion, of course.

Craig

[okjohnson]

Hi mrsnacks

Maybe the following verses will help you out here.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.



     Orlando

[YellowStone]

So what if some of these experiences are missing in our lives does that mean we ( if we are elect ) will have yet to face.

No, in my opinion.  All experience we face is due to a lesson needing learned or a virtue to be brought out.  Being different as we all are we may not need to be tested in every area, and some may need testing in more areas than others.

This is all my opinion, of course.

Craig

Craig as far as I am concerned, you nailed it. Every experience we are presented with is for our betterment, for our learning. Before one can learn anything, one must first know that one needs too. For is not the world an open door of opportunity in the eys of a child? We must also take on this mindset, and realize that there is a valuable lesson in everything.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.  

Well said Criag! And of course this is my opinion only

Love in Christ,
Darren

[Kat]

Hi mrsnacks,

I believe all the elect start out in the church and at some point while there, they sincerely think they have found Jesus.  This is likened to first love.  

Rev 13:3  And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
v. 4  So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"


This is the beast that is wounded at first, but is healed by the church.  As I see it, this is the falling away part.  Those years whether in the church or leaving and going back out into the world. We have not yet been given the Holy Spirit and our eyes are not yet opened.  We do not know the truth and we are still in Babylon.  But God is leading us all the way and I think He is preparing us during this time, in the things we experience, to be ready to recieve the Truth, according to the appointed time.

Rev 15:2  And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire. And those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

This is only possible when we recieve the Holy Spirit, only Christ indwelling can gain victory over the beast.

1Cor 15:57  But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[mrsnacks]

Hi mrsnacks,

I believe all the elect start out in the church and at some point while there, they sincerely think they have found Jesus.  This is likened to first love. 

Rev 13:3  And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
v. 4  So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"


This is the beast that is wounded at first, but is healed by the church.  As I see it, this is the falling away part.  Those years whether in the church or leaving and going back out into the world. We have not yet been given the Holy Spirit and our eyes are not yet opened.  We do not know the truth and we are still in Babylon.  But God is leading us all the way and I think He is preparing us during this time, in the things we experience, to be ready to recieve the Truth, according to the appointed time.

Rev 15:2  And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire. And those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

This is only possible when we recieve the Holy Spirit, only Christ indwelling can gain victory over the beast.

1Cor 15:57  But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

----------------------------------------------
Thanks Kat. So the poison that has been fed to the many from the pulpit when one becomes a Christian is that you are in and  saved by the 45 second sinners prayer. And the rest from that point is God leading you to truth. You say that at beginning you think you have found Jesus and really didn't find Him ? Can you expand on that ?

The thing with me is that in my many years as a Christian I thought I was growing in the knowledge and understanding of my Lord coming about with much prayer and seeking. Plus taking many courses and buying and reading books by scholarly Christians etc. Then one day the vehicle I was in all of a sudden started to go in reverse. Taking me in a different direction. Going back to where I started and unlearning mostly all what I have been taught and learning new truths. I don't hold to hardly anything I used to hold to.


I fell into a slight depression today. I was pondering the complete turnaround I have gone through and coming from a point where I honestly thought I was dead right about so many things before. I then had this strange thought of what if I am wrong again. You check out so many sincere believers that are so right about certain doctrines and miss the mark on others. That can be any of us.

[mrsnacks]

SORRY but Ray does takes on these subjects all through out his many, many articles.

-----------------------------------------

Ray may have but I want to hear from others. Most of what goes on in the forums I have noticed been covered by his articles but iron sharpens iron .And that is why this is a forum so all can contribute and I desire to bounce things off of everyone here. Hope you don't mind.

[Craig]

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. "

[Kat]

Hi mrsnacks,

When I started going to church as a young adult, after an absents of a number of years.  I really thought I had found the right one, that they had the truth.  I asked to be baptisted and committed myself as much as I could.  This I believe was my first love.  At the time, I thought I had found God, I thought Jesus had saved me.  But now I can look back and see, I did not have the truth, but I stayed there in church worshipping a false Jesus and serving doctrines of man.  I was not growing in the truth at all, though I thought I was.  I was not saved, no one is in this life. To me those years were the falling away.  I was in the church in the wilderness for 25 long years.  Thought I was spiritually blind, God was teaching me a lot of important lesson, maybe mostly an experience of evil 
Then God, at His appointed time brought me to BT, opened my eyes, and I was freed from my church prison.  Have I been begotten from above, with the Holy Spirit, it feels like it.  I am learning new truths daily, the scriptures have come alive, I no longer struggle with certain sins, like anger and materializm, not that I do not sin, by no means, but I don't think sin reigns in my life either.  Am I assured of the first resurrection, of course not, but I am going to continue to strive for it, who could hope for more.
What makes me think that this is the truth, when I thought I had it before.  The scriptures prove it to me.  Before I went along with all the church doctrines, I thought since I could not understand the scripture, I had to have the church teach me. 
Now I can and do prove it to myself, by the scripture.  True Ray does teach me so much, but I understand what I see in the scripture and I can find proofs for myself as well.  Everything fits together in the scripture, nothing I can find contradicts.  And Ray comes up with new stuff in the scripture all the time, so I continue to learn and grow.

Hope this helps 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[mrsnacks]

Yes it does. Thanks Kat. I see it to that the church years were actually my years in the wilderness. I like what you said about we are not saved during this life. Why is it that Christendom teaches us that once we do the sinners prayer it is a done deal and we are saved ? I think it produces laziness in us. Like getting a gold medal before we run the race.

[Kat]

Hi mrsnacks,

Rev 18:23  "... and all nations were deceived by your sorcery."

It is a part of God's plan and purpose that 'all' shall be deceived in this world.  The sinners pray is just another one of the ways that people are deceived.  This world is very complicated and intricate, God had made it a very elaborate place for teaching ground for good and evil, because the whole world must go through an evil experience here.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

It is depressing to know all must suffer here now.  But we also can consider, once we are at one with God, it will be a glorious experience for then on. And this life is but a vapour.  This evil experience is really very very short in the scheme of things.

James 4:14  who do not know of the morrow. For what is your life? For it is a vapor, which appears for a little time, and then disappears.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[skydreamers]

What makes me think that this is the truth, when I thought I had it before.  The scriptures prove it to me.  Before I went along with all the church doctrines, I thought since I could not understand the scripture, I had to have the church teach me to obey.
Now I can and do prove it to myself by the scripture.  True Ray does teach me so much, but I understand what I see in the scripture and I can find proofs for myself as well.  Everything fits together in the scripture, nothing I can find contradicts.

Hi Kat,

What you said above really struck a chord with me.  Before finding BT I had already been out of the church (SDA)  for a couple of years.  But I still firmly believed that keeping the 7th day Sabbath and annihilation of the wicked was the truth.  I thought that they (the SDA church) had proven that through scripture.  I didn't realize that I was taking their word for it, because I didn't truly study it for myself using the scriptures alone and not the church writings.  Oh yes, they used some compelling scriptures, as many churches do to prove their doctrines.  But when you consider the "sum of God's word" and pay attention to all the words, and compare scripture after scripture...well, a different picture emerged than what I was taught. 

Initially there was a time after discovering the truth that the adversary tried to convince me that I was crazy for believing this stuff.  I didn't have church members calling me a heretic, instead I was doing it to myself!  But the power of God's voice was always stronger and I submitted to that, and true to the scriptures, the devil did flee.   

I am grateful for all the wonderful truths that Ray shows us, but what I cherish more, is that through the way he teaches I have learned to study the scriptures for myself...albeit, not with the same insight Ray has been gifted with as his spiritual maturity is way beyond me...but in my own little world God graciously gives me small bits of understanding that spurs me on to further study...and as you said Kat, it is a joy to see what we've been taught here proven by countless other scriptures!  The bible really does start to harmonize in a way I have never seen before.  It's a beautiful thing.  And of course, all praise and glory goes to God who is the true teacher behind all of this!

And posts like yours confirm for me that I really am in the right place at this point in my life.

Much respect and luv to ya,
Peace,
Diana

[ciy]

I find great comfort in the knowledge that what I am going through now outside of the church (Egypt, Bablyon, etc) is the wilderness.  Just as Abraham, Jacob, Moses, etc had to leave the comforts of the world system that they knew and go out away into an unknown area alone to have the wilderness experience (So that God can speak to you directly through the stars or where you wrestle with God until you know Him).  Once you are in the wilderness you will be tried and tempted to return to Egypt or the world just as the Israelites were in Exodus, but that is the time when you learn of God to rely and believe on Him for your well being and not a church and its members.

Moses was learned in all the wisdom of Egypt and then he left and went into the wilderness where he found out about God.  David had to leave Saul and spend years in caves.  Joseph spent years in prison.  John spent all of his years in the wilderness until he met and learned of Jesus.  Jesus spent his time in the wilderness as did Paul for 13 years in Arabia.  It is this experience when you are seeking God alone and just depending on His voice that you draw closer until you become one.

Acts 7:36-38
 35This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
   36He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
   37This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
   38This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
   39To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

Like Ray said salvation is the hardest thing you will ever do in this age.  The siren song of the daughters of Bablyon will always be calling to you to come back into the church for comfort, but it is where you will run aground and sink on the rocks.

God's ways are not our ways but they are awesome ways.
CIY

[LittleBear]

CIY,

What can I say. I have to agree with you. What I am going thru now is the wilderness too. You are so right! I feel like a child, or an infant rather, learning to walk, weaving here and there, falling, getting up, falling again, up again. And I know this wilderness will be lasting for some time. In the flesh, I find this tribulation overwhelming, but in the spirit, I thank Him with all my heart because I want so much to be conformed to His image, to be like Him!

Love,

Ursula

[ciy]

I am there with you Ursula.  Let's remember to be strong and courageous in knowing that God is in control.  Even though He is chastening us, He is bringing us through the fire of the wilderness.

"Fear not (there is nothing to fear), for I am with you; do not look around you in terror and be dismayed, for I am your God.  I will strengthen and harden you to difficulties, yes, I will help you; yes, I will hold you up and retain you with My (victorious) right hand of rightness and justice."  Isaiah 41:10 Amplified version

God has us in the palm of His right hand.  No fear.  Be of good cheer.

CIY

[Robin]

I've been in the wilderness for close to 10 years. I did not hear anything from God during that time. It was right after I was called out of the church. I did not step foot in a church for close to 14 years. I recently had to attend 2 church services for personal reasons. I was standing there in the middle of everyone when they were singing and went through something very interesting. I felt as if there was nothing inside of me. It startled me at first. It was like I was in a bubble and they were all outside and I was alone on the inside. For a few minutes I told myself that there was nothing in me and I was alone and empty. Then I realized that there wasn't any of the false teaching and false worship in me. It was all outside of me and I was a spectator. All of it used to be inside of me. God separated me from all of it through the wilderness. I didn't realize how much had changed until I went to those services.

Our carnal minds latch on to all things of the world and the physical. The wilderness separates us from all those things. When separated the carnal dies and it hurts and is overwhelming. 

Matthew 13
 44"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
 45"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.

Philippians 3:7-9
 7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

Isaiah 35
Joy of the Redeemed
 1 The desert and the parched land will be glad;
       the wilderness will rejoice and blossom.
       Like the crocus, 2 it will burst into bloom;
       it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy.
       The glory of Lebanon will be given to it,
       the splendor of Carmel and Sharon;
       they will see the glory of the LORD,
       the splendor of our God.
 3 Strengthen the feeble hands,
       steady the knees that give way;

 4 say to those with fearful hearts,
       "Be strong, do not fear;
       your God will come,
       he will come with vengeance;
       with divine retribution
       he will come to save you."

 5 Then will the eyes of the blind be opened
       and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

 6 Then will the lame leap like a deer,
       and the mute tongue shout for joy.
       Water will gush forth in the wilderness
       and streams in the desert.

 7 The burning sand will become a pool,
       the thirsty ground bubbling springs.
       In the haunts where jackals once lay,
       grass and reeds and papyrus will grow.

 8 And a highway will be there;
       it will be called the Way of Holiness.
       The unclean will not journey on it;
       it will be for those who walk in that Way;
       wicked fools will not go about on it. [a]

 9 No lion will be there,
       nor will any ferocious beast get up on it;
       they will not be found there.
       But only the redeemed will walk there,

 10 and the ransomed of the LORD will return.
       They will enter Zion with singing;
       everlasting joy will crown their heads.
       Gladness and joy will overtake them,
       and sorrow and sighing will flee away.

[gmik]

MG  What an awesome revelation for yu.  Thanks for sharing.  Great scriptures too.

[carol70]

I find great comfort in the knowledge that what I am going through now outside of the church (Egypt, Bablyon, etc) is the wilderness.  Just as Abraham, Jacob, Moses, etc had to leave the comforts of the world system that they knew and go out away into an unknown area alone to have the wilderness experience (So that God can speak to you directly through the stars or where you wrestle with God until you know Him).  Once you are in the wilderness you will be tried and tempted to return to Egypt or the world just as the Israelites were in Exodus, but that is the time when you learn of God to rely and believe on Him for your well being and not a church and its members.

I've indeed been wrestling with God but wasn't sure if this was part of the wilderness experience or not.  But Deut 8 cleared it up for me.  I just really hope it doesn't last 40 years...

Deu 8:1  All the commandments which I command you this day shall you be careful to do, that you may live and multiply and go in and possess the land which Jehovah swore to your fathers.

Deu 8:2  And you shall remember all the way which Jehovah your God led you these forty years in the wilderness in order to humble you, to prove you, to know what is in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.

Deu 8:3  And He humbled you and allowed you to hunger, and then He fed you with manna, which you did not know, neither did your fathers know it, so that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes out of the mouth of Jehovah man shall live.

Deu 8:4  Your clothing did not wear out on you, nor did your foot swell, these forty years.

Deu 8:5  And you have known with your heart, that, as a man chastens his son, so Jehovah your God chastens you.

Deu 8:6  And you shall keep the commandments of Jehovah your God, to walk in His ways and to fear Him.

Deu 8:7  For Jehovah your God brings you into a good land, a land of brooks of water, of fountains and depths that spring out of valleys and hills,

Deu 8:8  a land of wheat and barley and vines and fig trees and pomegranates, a land of olive oil and honey,

Deu 8:9  a land in which you shall eat bread without want. You shall not lack any thing in it. It is a land whose stones are iron, and out of whose hills you may dig copper.

Deu 8:10  And you shall eat and be satisfied, then you shall bless Jehovah your God for the good land which He has given you.

Deu 8:11  Beware that you do not forget Jehovah your God, in not keeping His commandments, and His judgments, and His statutes, which I command you today,

Deu 8:12  lest when you have eaten and are full and have built good houses and lived in them,

Deu 8:13  and when your herds and your flocks multiply, and your silver and your gold is multiplied, and all that you have is multiplied,

Deu 8:14  then your heart might be lifted up, and you might forget Jehovah your God who brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slaves.

Deu 8:15  He led you through the great and terrible wilderness, with fiery serpents and scorpions and thirsty ground, where there was no water, who brought you forth water out of the rock of flint,

Deu 8:16  who fed you in the wilderness with manna which your fathers did not know, so that He might humble you and so that He might prove you, to do you good in your latter end,

Deu 8:17  and so that you might not say in your heart, My power and the might of my hand has gotten me this wealth.

Deu 8:18  But you shall remember Jehovah your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth, so that He may confirm His covenant which He has sworn to your fathers, as it is today.

Deu 8:19  And it shall be if you do at all forget Jehovah your God and walk after other gods and serve them and worship them, I testify against you today that you shall surely perish.

Deu 8:20  As the nations whom Jehovah destroys before your face, so you shall perish because you would not listen to the voice of Jehovah your God.