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[lilitalienboi16]

An athiest asked a group of christians this, and none had an answer, i merely was astonished at the way God uses those who don't even believe in His Word, to shame the pharisees and all of babylon

Here is what he said, let me know what you think, and if anyone would care to pass this along to ray as perhaps ray has not thought of this much, but it would be another great argument against eternal torment.

Jesus only suffered while dying on the cross, and then ascended into Heaven, while Judas must suffer for eternity in Hell, then Judas has suffered much more for the sins of humanity than Jesus.

Why has Christianity condemed this man? He had no free will as Jesus and God essentially planned for this to occur, without him betraying Jesus how different would history be. There may not be any Christianity! Yet he has been sent for enternity to hell in the bottom circle.

Interesting huh? Its a great point, do u all agree, or is this point flawed in some way? Do you think christians could make an argument against this, or is this pretty much a sealed deal here, if you believe in eternal torment?

Let me know! I'm interested in your thoughts.

God bless,

Alex

[musicman]

The atheists position is strong when asking such a question of churchians.  They have no answer.  They can't provide anything to  give hope to the nonbeliever.  Their answers are usually more swill to drive away anybody with a conscience.  Every atheists site I've seen just about parrots the problem of a loving god burning people forever.  I am wondering how the atheist knew that Judas had no freewill.  Even the best scientists don't get that.

[Dean Peterman]

Dear Alex,

This probably would not persuade a Calvinist (most of modern Protestanism comes from the Calvinist tradition or at least was strongly influenced by it) since they believe that God chose prior to the creation of the world who would go to hell.  None of this has anything to do with fairness.  It has to do with justice. Of course in their mind this is justice.  God chooses and does not have to be fair he only has to be just.   You have to remember Calvinists believe that everyone deserves to go to hell and God arbitarily chooses who will not go to hell.  This argument only works for people who think God is fair.  (Note: This is not my belief but I have read a lot of material on Calvinism and this is how they see it.) 

John Calvin had one of his opponents burned at the stake, and yes, he thought this was justified.  Most of what is believed by Christians today was thought up by people like Calvin.  I could show you websites where the people would say to you something like, "Alex, God does whatever he wants to do and if he wants to use Judas and then send him to hell it is his right to do that. 

This is my take on it.

Sincerely,

Dean

[lilitalienboi16]

Dear Alex,

This probably would not persuade a Calvinist (most of modern Protestanism comes from the Calvinist tradition or at least was strongly influenced by it) since they believe that God chose prior to the creation of the world who would go to hell.  None of this has anything to do with fairness.  It has to do with justice. Of course in their mind this is justice.  God chooses and does not have to be fair he only has to be just.   You have to remember Calvinists believe that everyone deserves to go to hell and God arbitarily chooses who will not go to hell.  This argument only works for people who think God is fair.  (Note: This is not my belief but I have read a lot of material on Calvinism and this is how they see it.) 

John Calvin had one of his opponents burned at the stake, and yes, he thought this was justified.  Most of what is believed by Christians today was thought up by people like Calvin.  I could show you websites where the people would say to you something like, "Alex, God does whatever he wants to do and if he wants to use Judas and then send him to hell it is his right to do that. 

This is my take on it.

Sincerely,

Dean

Ty dean, the thought of such doctrin discusts me.

Ty you both for your imput.

Anyone else?

[Shmeggly]

Great post!  That is something that had always bothered me; people in the bible like pharoah and Judas who were made for what they did, and they were made to do it.  I didn't understand it in the context of an eternal hell, but I understand it now. 
Also, Judas was repentant and threw the silver back at the priests, and was very remorseful....and then he went and hanged himself.  How much more sorry can you be?  So the people that still believe in hell should at least acknowledge that he was repentant....

There was a question awhile ago about who we'd like to speak to from the bible days....the first thought that came into my head was Judas.  Yes, there are a lot more, but he was the first to pop into my noggin!  Without his betrayal, the kiss etc....he was an intimate of Jesus, yet was called upon to betray Him and his (Judas') friends....what anguish in his soul to realize what he had done. 

Anyway, your post of what the atheist said is very thought provoking....I will be bringing that up to a few people to just watch their mouths hang open!!!   James

[lq1over]

Alex,

good post, i will have to use that sometime.

I think about Jesus bearing the sin of Adam and the sins of all mankind for our sakes.  What is interesting to me is that while Jesus bore all the sins of the world (HE WAS LOOKED UPON AS SIN BUT HE KNEW NO SIN)  many churchians do realise that Jesus is not burning in HELL, but (as many say, that is the penalty for sin "burning in Hell" if He was made sin for us then shouldn't He have to pay the penalty for sin) but he died just as God The Father said, (that the penalty for sin is  "death".)
Praise God for the  death and resurrection of His SON JESUS,WE HAVE THE HOPE OF AGE-ABIDING LIFE (LIFE WITHOUT DEATH)
lq1over   

[lilitalienboi16]

Alex,

good post, i will have to use that sometime.

I think about Jesus bearing the sin of Adam and the sins of all mankind for our sakes.  What is interesting to me is that while Jesus bore all the sins of the world (HE WAS LOOKED UPON AS SIN BUT HE KNEW NO SIN)  many churchians do realise that Jesus is not burning in HELL, but (as many say, that is the penalty for sin "burning in Hell" if He was made sin for us then shouldn't He have to pay the penalty for sin) but he died just as God The Father said, (that the penalty for sin is  "death".)
Praise God for the  death and resurrection of His SON JESUS,WE HAVE THE HOPE OF AGE-ABIDING LIFE (LIFE WITHOUT DEATH)
lq1over   

Lq1over, i believe that ray talks about this very issue, that Christ wasn't made SIN, but rather a SIN OFFERING;

Atleast thats what i thought ray said on the issue, feel free anyone to correct me if i'm wrong.

Otherwise, ty for your thoughts they are much appreciated.

Love in Christ,

Alex

[musicman]

Alex,

good post, i will have to use that sometime.

I think about Jesus bearing the sin of Adam and the sins of all mankind for our sakes.  What is interesting to me is that while Jesus bore all the sins of the world (HE WAS LOOKED UPON AS SIN BUT HE KNEW NO SIN)  many churchians do realise that Jesus is not burning in HELL, but (as many say, that is the penalty for sin "burning in Hell" if He was made sin for us then shouldn't He have to pay the penalty for sin) but he died just as God The Father said, (that the penalty for sin is  "death".)
Praise God for the  death and resurrection of His SON JESUS,WE HAVE THE HOPE OF AGE-ABIDING LIFE (LIFE WITHOUT DEATH)
lq1over   

Christ was not made sin.  He was made a sin offering.  None of the burned offerings in the OT were refered to as sin.  They were sin offerings.  Sin offering is a mistranslation.  

[Kat]

Hi Alex,

You have it right.  Christ was a sin offering.
Here is an email on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4163.0.html -----

        Dear Mike:

        NO, "He treated Him who knew not sin as a sinner…..."  is a horrible translation. God never treated His Son "AS IF" He were a sinner, seeing that He NEVER DID SIN!  "Sin OFFERING" is the proper translation, not based on the singular word "sin" from which it is taken, but based on the KNOWLEDGE OF HOWS LANGUAGE IS USED.  We have a plethora of proof from the Old Testament that "sin" MUST be translated "sin OFFERING," in many Scriptures, and that is why it was translated "sin offering" in many Scriptures. But in II Cor. 5:20, the Translators dropped the ball and did not do what they surely knew was the proper way to translate it, but since they were working with Greek rather than Hebrew, they let it slide.

        I have about 30 pages of notes on this subject and I will turn it into a full article in the near future, so look for it. There are many, many, Scriptural proofs against the damnable heresy that Jesus Himself was the personification of sin and that His Father was displeased with Him, and that He was marred in His Fathers hands, and had to be crushed and ground to powder all the days of His life, and that God thus poured out His anger, indignation and wrath against His Son, and that Jesus' blood was no different and no better than ours. I will blow this damnable teaching right out of the sky!

        God be with you,

        Ray

[seminole]

God loved His son Jesus. He wasn't raining down anger , punishment or hate. Jesus died as a sin offering for us. I accept His sacrifice for me and am forever grateful. Does anyone know the progression of the sin offering to the time of Jesus? Firstruits went to not so great offerings. Jesus was sinless but took that on for me, for us. While Jesus was on the cross He did cry out " My God why have you forsaken me". He prayed before that in the garden  that " if it is possible take this cup from me" to God the Father. He also said not my will but yours be done. He loved us that much and God the Father loves us too.
Jesus called the disciples but they were not forced to come with Him anymore than we are forced. The Bible speaks of the gift of salvation and forgiveness through Jesus. If I give you a birthday present you can sit the gift aside and never get the good of it until you open it. It is your choice. The gift is yours but if you don't open it it is no good to you.

[Craig]

Nole,

You're getting pretty good a teaching church doctrine.  You should study less with the preacher in the pulpit and actually learn the scripture.  Would you care to give some scripture to back up what you are stating?  Like all of Babylon, you mix a bit of truth and whole lot of doctrine and come out with a great tasting but lukewarm brew.  I know because I used to do the same thing.  Now I just spit it out.

Craig

[seminole]

Ah Craig you are funny! Actually, I've got my Bible right here with me and not a preacher in sight ! As for teaching church doctrine, I couldn't do it if my life depended on it. I checked out the reference to Babylon. I guess you are saying I am the "mystery Babylon, the great whore, etc." . I've been called worse.

[Craig]

As for teaching church doctrine, I couldn't do it if my life depended on it.

It appears you are getting a good grasp on it though.

I checked out the reference to Babylon. I guess you are saying I am the "mystery Babylon, the great whore, etc." .

I guess you would be guessing wrong.

I've been called worse.

I'm sure you have   As have I.

Craig

[seminole]

This walk is pretty rocky sometimes isn't it? the way I figure it is it won't get smoother as we all learn more and more. I got to say Craig, I like the way you speak. Straight to the point.
Nole

[lq1over]

Alex,

good post, i will have to use that sometime.

I think about Jesus bearing the sin of Adam and the sins of all mankind for our sakes.  What is interesting to me is that while Jesus bore all the sins of the world (HE WAS LOOKED UPON AS SIN BUT HE KNEW NO SIN)  many churchians do realise that Jesus is not burning in HELL, but (as many say, that is the penalty for sin "burning in Hell" if He was made sin for us then shouldn't He have to pay the penalty for sin) but he died just as God The Father said, (that the penalty for sin is  "death".)
Praise God for the  death and resurrection of His SON JESUS,WE HAVE THE HOPE OF AGE-ABIDING LIFE (LIFE WITHOUT DEATH)
lq1over   
 
I agree with sin offering I was not trying to state doctrine as if Gods wrath was poured out on his Son as being sin. My thoughts were more on the line of imputation. I guess I was stating the foolishness of be tormented in hell as being the penalty for sin, but that Christ did pay the penalty for sin "death". He was also raised so that would also be that his Rightouseness is imputed to us for what he did?
after re-reading my post i realised that i didn't say it very well.
I hope this is a better rewrite.
lq1over