Something new to me

[Robin]

In this email
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4928.0.html

Ray said this:

You might suggest that Adam's sin was PASSED ON to all men. No it wasn't. DEATH was passed on, not SIN (Rom. 5:12).

Romans 5:12
12For this [cause], even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

This really changes the way I look at it and there are some scriptures I don't understand now. I'll put them in bold. The church taught that sin was inherited and sins were the act of sinning. I'm not quite sure how to sort this all out now.

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Romans 7
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but *I* am fleshly, sold under sin.

15For that which I do, I do not own: for not what I will, this I do; but what I hate, this I practise.

16But if what I do not will, this I practise, I consent to the law that [it is] right.

17Now then [it is] no longer *I* [that] do it, but the sin that dwells in me.

1 John 1
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

[Kat]

Hi M.G.,

I can see how that seems confussing.  I was looking at this whole passage in Rom. 5 and it helped me to grasp what was being said in verse 19.

Rom 5:12  Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned:

Adam was the first or the beginner, so he got sin started, so to speak.  It was not through Eve, but Adam "was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1Tim 2:14)   

Rom 5:14  But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is the type of Him who was to come;

Rom 5:18  Therefore as by(A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act: - after, always, among, at, by, for, of, by reason of,) one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life.
Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.

Adam is the type or symbol of sin, because he got it started, not because he made the rest of us sinners.

Rom 5:21  so that as sin has reigned to death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold(that is, dispose of as merchandise or into slavery (literally or figuratively): - sell.) under sin.

I hope this will help 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Robin]

Thank you Kat. It's still foggy.

I'll have to study it more.

When it says sin entered into the world what exactly does that mean? What is sin in that context? Does that mean through the act of sinning that sin entered into the world or was sin floating around waiting to grab someone? I'm not sure I understand what sin is now. I always thought it was an inherited sin nature that lived inside of us until we were free from our physical body.

[Brett]

Hi M.G.

I can understand you have foggy of what Ray's response. At first, it did foggy me but then I look in scriptures and thinking what mean Ray said "DEATH was passed on, not SIN". Finally, I think I get it. Okay, here is explain the best I can be.

Adam's sinned did not cause or spread [passed] all mankind to sin. That is not what the scriptures said. The scripture said like Adam's sinned, cause or spread all mankind death. The scriptures did say something like "All have sinned", no one without sin, not one. But Adam's disobedience, many were made sinned (I mean sinners, not sinned, me bad English language ). Not cause or spread many to sin.
       
     1Co 15:22  "For as in Adam [sinned] all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Is that make sense?

Kat or anyone who spiritual mature, please correct me if I sound not scriptural. Thanks

Brett

[Brett]

Where did Angelo find in Ray's installments? Angelo said, "You [Ray] have some interesting points but I still disagree with your statement about free will sinning because if men cannot do nothing about his sinning". I don't see anywhere Ray wrote "free will sinning" in any installments. Have you see in installments? Just wondering.

Brett

[Craig]

Here is Ray's reply

Craig


WAS ADAM'S SIN PASSED ON TO HIS PROGENY?

Someone has suggested to the forum that Romans 5:19 contradicts a statement I made regarding the fact that Adam's sins were not passed on to his progeny, but rather his mortality (death) was passed on. Here is my statement:  "You might suggest that Adam's sin was PASSED ON to all men. No it wasn't. DEATH was passed on."

Now then, does Rom. 5:19 contradict my statement? --  "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Why does Paul change words in midstream if they are both identical to his meaning?  Why didn't Paul say, "For as by one man's SIN many were made SINNERS...?"  Or  "For as by one man's DISOBEDIENCE many were made DISOBEDIENT?  No, Paul says that Adam's disobedience is the CAUSE of men being sinners. It doesn't say HIS SINS ARE NOW THEIR SINS.  Where does this verse say anything like that?  Or that the many are GUILTY for the sins that Adam committed.  Or that the many are sinners, even if they NEVER SIN This verse does not say any of those things. But the statement is true: Adam's disobedience has made many into sinners.  How so? Remember that "NO Scripture is its OWN interpretation" (I Pet. 1:20)?  And we need TWO witnesses to establish every fact? Etc.  Okay.......let's back up a few verses in Rom. 5 to verse 12:

Wherefore, as by one man SIN entered into the world, DEATH BY sin: and so DEATH PASSED UPON ALL MEN [why? because 'ADAM' sinned?  NO, let's read it...]...for that   A-L-L   H-A-V-E    SINNED."

There's the answer. Adam's personal sin no more pass on to us making US guilty of HIS sins anymore than Eve's sins passed on to her husband.  We inherit our parent's (Adam and Eve) mortality and nature. We are not born with their SIN, but with their nature.  We are born with the "natural" mind, the Adamic mind, which is called "carnal" in the Scriptures. Notice: "Because the carnal [natural fleshly mind] is enmity against God: for IT is not subject to the law of God..." (Rom. 8:7).  It is not "Adam's sin in us" that is enmity against God, but rather OUR OWN CARNAL MINDS.  Notice what it is that came from the one man, Adam:  "For since by man came DEATH...for as IN Adam all DIE..." (I Cor. 15:21 & 22).

We are all guilty and accountable for OUR OWN SINS, not the sins of Adam or anyone else.

God be with you all,

Ray

[Robin]

Thank you Brett, Ray, and Craig.

That was very helpful.

I think I need to go correct a post now.