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Author Topic: Need some help with this please scholars!  (Read 12805 times)

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EZE

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« on: April 18, 2006, 07:27:50 AM »

Hey guys...
Could anybody possibly help with this one?
I'm in the middle of an online debate with a friend re UR.
He threw a scripture at me that spoke of being 'destroyed' in the fires of Gehenna.
I in turn pointed out to him the the word translated as 'Destroy' is in fact 'Apollumi' and is elsewhere translated as 'Lost'.

He said the following -
START QUOTE

But contextually it would seem not to make any sense to say they are lost.

Do not fear those that can kill the body, but fear him who can lose your soul and body in Gehenna?

And if Hades is cast into the Gehenna and that is called the second death It would appear that your justification of this is trying to force your view into a box that does not fit it.
Whether you take Gehenna and Hades to be literal at this point, would not seem to matter, as their is a destruction that is called or likened unto death at this point...

END QUOTE

The thing is  - I can SEE HIS POINT.

Any help would be appreciated people
God bless - EZE
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ertsky

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2006, 07:57:14 AM »

Mat 18:11  For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

lost there is apollumi

so the Son of man is come to save that which is destroyed ?

also i like this one

Mat 10:6  But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

lost is apollumi again

go rather to the destroyed sheep of israel ? hmmmm that can't be right can it ?

confusion in the understanding

my spirit however is more in this mode

Heb 7:25  Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

so if we do not come to God by Him we are only fooling ourselves ?

f
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EZE

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2006, 09:44:18 AM »

Hey there Ertsky.
Thanks for going to the trouble of replying but it doesn't exactly help me.
I've already quoted a mountain of scriptures with the Gk Apollumi as lost in there to him.
I also pointed out that the Gk word Katargeo is used in reference to God destroying death but never used in relation to humankind.
 
His beef is that if those who are *lost* are in the 'fires of Gehenna' or 'lake of fire', then why is death and Hades also in there?
Will they also come out purified?
That is his argument and I can see his point to a certain extent.

Does that make sense?
EZE
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Steve Crook

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2006, 10:41:20 AM »

Don't be tossed to and fro with every doctrine or idea of men.

(Mat 10:24)  The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

(Mat 10:25)  It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

(Mat 10:26)  Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

(Mat 10:27)  What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

(Mat 10:28 )  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

(Mat 10:29)  Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

(Mat 10:30)  But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Hell in Matt 10:28 is gehenna as you've pointed out.

Quote
But contextually it would seem not to make any sense to say they are lost.

Do not fear those that can kill the body, but fear him who can lose your soul and body in Gehenna?

And if Hades is cast into the Gehenna and that is called the second death It would appear that your justification of this is trying to force your view into a box that does not fit it.
Whether you take Gehenna and Hades to be literal at this point, would not seem to matter, as their is a destruction that is called or likened unto death at this point...


Contextually he doesn't agree with the inspired Word of God. If I fear a MAN who can kill only my BODY, HOW MUCH MORE should I fear our Father who can kill my body BUT ALSO will kill my SOUL TOO?

Dead people are dead. So, once dead, that is the end deal. No more repentance, faith, love, mercy, etc.

The person you are debating with clearly twists words and scriptures beyond compare.

Quote
And if Hades is cast into the Gehenna and that is called the second death


Since when is "Gehenna" the "Lake of Fire"?

(Mat 10:28)  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell(1067)

(Rev 20:14)  And death and hell were cast into the lake(3041) of fire(4442). This is the second death.

The "Lake of Fire" IS the second death, NOT GEHENNA or GEHENNA FIRE.

So, I will stop there. Spiritual death is MUCH more important that physical death.
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Sorin

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2006, 10:42:12 AM »

Quote from: EZE
And if Hades is cast into the Gehenna and that is called the second death



Hi EZE,

Hades is not cast into Gehenna, Gehenna's flames have been out for many,many years. Hades is cast into The Lake of Fire, when Jesus spoke about the literal Gehenna, He was using that literal place to describe the Spiritual Lake of Fire. for His words are Spirit. Jesus did not speak to the masses in parables to make the meaning clearer, as foolish theologians would have you believe.

Just my two cents,

Sorin
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Laren

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2006, 10:44:48 AM »

Quote from: EZE
Hey there Ertsky.
Thanks for going to the trouble of replying but it doesn't exactly help me.
I've already quoted a mountain of scriptures with the Gk Apollumi as lost in there to him.
I also pointed out that the Gk word Katargeo is used in reference to God destroying death but never used in relation to humankind.
 
His beef is that if those who are *lost* are in the 'fires of Gehenna' or 'lake of fire', then why is death and Hades also in there?
Will they also come out purified?
That is his argument and I can see his point to a certain extent.

Does that make sense?
EZE


Not sure how Gehenna versus LOF relate, but something i've been thinking on re: LOF.  

This doesn't go along with totally what Ray teaches, but is something i've been thinking about.  Maybe what goes into the lake of fire doesn't ever come out, maybe it is destroyed forever;   The carnal mind is thrown into it and dies.  I don't think the lake of fire is to convert the carnal mind, it is to destroy it.  

Just as the in Jesus earthly times, the demon possessed had their demons removed (ie:thrown into the pigs, and the pigs went over cliff into LAKE).  The new man, continued on.  Every person that had demons removed, or sickness removed; then walked on in a new creation.  What happened to the sickness?  What happened to the demons?  What happened to the blindess?  They were destroyed.  

Just some thots.
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Steve Crook

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2006, 10:51:51 AM »

I wonder where that came from :)

Haha :)
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Sorin

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2006, 10:53:37 AM »

Quote from: Steve Crook
I wonder where that came from :)

Haha :)



Where what came from?
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Laren

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2006, 11:14:17 AM »

Quote from: Steve Crook
I wonder where that came from :)

Haha :)


I'm not sure Steve if u meant my post.  

For me, where this thinking came from is, Christ died on the cross, complete death.  Christ represents the flesh.  It had/has to die.  When Christ was raised, he wasn't raised in the flesh,  but a new creation.  In the lake of fire, our flesh has to die.  To me this makes a lot of sense.  The carnal mind is destroyed.  Romans 6-8 talks about our baptism into death, to reckon ourselved dead to sin, to the flesh.  If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.  

Paul died daily, the flesh has to be crucified.  All a part of the cross, death and life.  

I think we who are going through judgment now, can spend too much time focusing on changing our flesh, rather than letting Christ through the spirit crucify it.
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Steve Crook

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2006, 11:24:38 AM »

Quote
I think we who are going through judgment now, can spend too much time focusing on changing our flesh, rather than letting Christ through the spirit crucify it.


I agree with this because if we think we are doing anything at all, we are still yet carnal. Christ will be the one to free us or not. It all leaves me saying, "How long, Oh Lord?".
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ertsky

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2006, 02:17:49 PM »

Hi EZE

Quote
His beef is that if those who are *lost* are in the 'fires of Gehenna' or 'lake of fire', then why is death and Hades also in there?
Will they also come out purified?
That is his argument and I can see his point to a certain extent.

Does that make sense?
EZE


sorry about that EZE i was a bit oblique there, thank goodness the other posters had it more together. (good posts as usual there folks)

now i'm thinking on this verse

1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God all in all and hades and death done away with ?

i don't see hades and death coming out only going in, just like my flesh into the fiery trials, it goes in and is burnt away, not coming out, theres plenty more apparently to fuel the next fiery trial LOL! .

hope that isn't too off the track

well i hope your friend sees more than i do before the day is done :)

f
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love_magnified

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2006, 03:28:54 PM »

Here is how I see that:

Do not fear him who can kill your body, but not lose your soul in judgement. Isn't it interesting that Christ does not say kill your body AND kill your soul, but kill your body and appolumi your soul? If killing a soul is what Christ was talking about why use a different word? It is because Christ is not talking about ending the existence of a soul, but judging a soul, and His judgements are as fire. This judgement does not have the effect of killing a soul (or Christ would have said that) but it has the effect of being cast away from him. Christ is actually talking about judging his own disciples. Remember the parable of the fish? The kingom is like a net. Within the net are fish, some good some wicked. Some fish will be tossed out of the kingdom. BUT if you read Romans 8, we see that the whole purpose for the ones who have NOT been tossed out is to recieve all of Creation into glorious liberty.
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hillsbororiver

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Re: Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2006, 06:20:36 PM »

Quote from: EZE
Hey guys...
Could anybody possibly help with this one?
I'm in the middle of an online debate with a friend re UR.
He threw a scripture at me that spoke of being 'destroyed' in the fires of Gehenna.
I in turn pointed out to him the the word translated as 'Destroy' is in fact 'Apollumi' and is elsewhere translated as 'Lost'.

He said the following -
START QUOTE

But contextually it would seem not to make any sense to say they are lost.

Do not fear those that can kill the body, but fear him who can lose your soul and body in Gehenna?

And if Hades is cast into the Gehenna and that is called the second death It would appear that your justification of this is trying to force your view into a box that does not fit it.
Whether you take Gehenna and Hades to be literal at this point, would not seem to matter, as their is a destruction that is called or likened unto death at this point...

END QUOTE

The thing is  - I can SEE HIS POINT.

Any help would be appreciated people
God bless - EZE


Hi EZE, you really should study this paper with your bible at your side before engaging in any more debates, do you understand "spirtual brimstone?" "Two Judgements by Fire?" "The Lord is a Consuming Fire?"

There is much to be learned and understood here;

http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html

I know from personal experience that debating can be a carnal exercise with no real persuasion being accomplished. I started asking myself what my motive was, I did not like the answer. There are times when people who have different views but are humbly seeking wisdom together can accomplish great things but more often than not, at least what I have seen it becomes more of a goal "to be right!"

If I have come across as lecturing please forgive me, I only believe that if you read and reread the "Lake of Fire" series (especially the one I posted since it addresses your original question) you will gain a knowledge of His plan that is truly exhilarating.

Joe
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bobf

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2006, 11:57:56 PM »

Read Daniel 4 as a kind of parable of God "destroying" a soul.  God destroyed the king's carnal self and raised up a new man in its place who was humble and loved God.

The tares are removed from God's kingdom which is within you and burned.  The tares are not converted into wheat.  They are destroyed.  Your old carnal man is destroyed and you are raised a new man in Christ.

The prodigal son had his soul APOLLUMI before he was made alive.  All must APOLLUMI their soul in order to find it.  All of our souls were carnal.
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bobf

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2006, 12:01:32 AM »

Quote from: Laren
Not sure how Gehenna versus LOF relate, but something i've been thinking on re: LOF.


Gehenna is a literal place but Jesus uses it as a symbol for the lake of fire.

Quote from: Laren
This doesn't go along with totally what Ray teaches, but is something i've been thinking about.  Maybe what goes into the lake of fire doesn't ever come out, maybe it is destroyed forever;   The carnal mind is thrown into it and dies.  I don't think the lake of fire is to convert the carnal mind, it is to destroy it.


That is my understanding too and as far as I know, that is how Ray and Mike teach it.
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Laren

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2006, 12:16:51 AM »

Quote from: bobf
Read Daniel 4 as a kind of parable of God "destroying" a soul.  God destroyed the king's carnal self and raised up a new man in its place who was humble and loved God.

The tares are removed from God's kingdom which is within you and burned.  The tares are not converted into wheat.  They are destroyed.  Your old carnal man is destroyed and you are raised a new man in Christ.

The prodigal son had his soul APOLLUMI before he was made alive.  All must APOLLUMI their soul in order to find it.  All of our souls were carnal.


So is the tares, the carnal mind?  Then what is the chaff of the wheat?  

I've always thot of the chaff as the stuff to be burned, our carnal thots/mind???

thanks.
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bobf

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2006, 12:32:24 AM »

Quote from: Laren
So is the tares, the carnal mind?  Then what is the chaff of the wheat?  

I've always thot of the chaff as the stuff to be burned, our carnal thots/mind???

thanks.


I see your question and maybe I'm wrong so don't quote me.  Those are separate parables.  One about wheat and chaff, another about wheat and tares.  As I understand, the tares and chaff symbolize the same thing (carnal self) when applied inwardly.  Both are separated from the wheat after it is grown and burned.
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bobf

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2006, 12:36:46 AM »

Laren,

I found an email where Mike answers exactly what you are asking.

http://www.*not-allowed*.com/email/2006032401.html
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Sorin

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2006, 12:38:40 AM »

From what I understand,all the parables are the same. they all say the same thing that many are called but few are chosen. Mar 4:13   And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
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Laren

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Need some help with this please scholars!
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2006, 02:28:24 AM »

thanks Sorin and bobf, both of your posts were helpful.
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